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Got off Suboxone virtually painlessly! Please read this!
  1. #1
    anonone17 is offline New Member
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    Smile Got off Suboxone virtually painlessly! Please read this!

    Hey everyone, I have not posted here in a while. About a year and a half ago I used to frequently be on here asking questions and furthering my knowledge. For those who do not know me, I am a pharmacist and am in my late 20's. To be completely honest, I am not a very experienced one only being out of school and employed for about two years now. I stopped posting because I had recently gotten married and had a child which has consumed almost all of my time outside of work.

    Anyway, I have always been fasinated with chemicals (which led me to become a pharm in the first place) and especially addiction which I try to study on my free time. I have lost many friends and family to addiction especially >>>>>> and opiates.

    The reason why I began to post here again is because about a month ago, I realized I had never done any research into Suboxone addiction and have been casually looking around here reading people's experiences. What is so fasinating to me is that because I already know how drugs interact with a person's body, I like to find out how they correspond with a person's mind.

    So lately I have been reading about how people have been having such a hard time getting off of suboxone. I can understand this seeing as the drug is nearly 60 times as potent as morphine. My professional opinion is that there was not adequate research done on the long term effects of using suboxone when the drug was released. I have had so many people come through picking up a sub script and when I saw they were taking a lower dose and I asked them how they taper was going they said " horrible, my doctor never told me about the excruciating pain off getting off ". I truly believe that many doctors misinform or " trick " their patients into believing that suboxone is a miracle drug that will solve all of their problems. Yeah, maybe if you have good insurance and can afford to be on it for ever. Not so much if you one of the many " average " people that I see on a regular basis who beg me for just a few pills because they lost their job which covered them for scripts and now they can't afford to get their 16mg's a day to which they are prescribed. What can I say? I am just outraged that some doctors will have no problem prescribing doses of this drug equivilent to over a gram of morphine per day and then just let the patient suffer when it's time to get off. I don't know if anyone reading this is aware but the ceiling dose of buprenorphine is 3-5 milligrams. Anything above that simply serves to build up a patients tolerance so that no matter now much >>>>>> or any other opiate they take, they're tolerance prevents them from feeling it. I feel this is a classic example of somthing that looks great in a lab setting but has a lot of problems in the real world.

    Sorry for the long intro, I just wanted everyone to understand what prompted me to write this. So after knowing all of this, I began to talk to some people that come through my pharmacy with sub scripts. I have identified a few of them who are in the process of tapering off. My experience is that most of them taper MUCH TOO FAST, MUCH TOO QUICKLY! They are astounded when I say "If you were taking 600 mg of morphine per day and then dropped it to 300 mg, would you expect to feel fine?" Of course they say NO! and then I tell them they have to taper much more slowly because this is such a potent drug. In hospitals, the dose given for pain relief is 50 micrograms! Thats 0.05 mg!

    So I have been keeping track of these people, trying to give them my best advice and yesterday I was talking to an 18 year old boy who comes in and is in the process of getting off.

    He began taking 16mg's a day about 1 year and a half ago. He remained on that dose for 1 year. Then six months ago he made the decision that he could not live his life that way forever and decided he had to get off sooner or later. Now what I am about to type is going to be very controversial and I cannot even explain it myself which is why I am hoping maybe some of you guys can help me.

    He tapered with this schedule and told me that the very worst w/d he ever had at any point during the taper was a slight body ache and feeling like he had a mild cold. He said it was in no way comparible to >>>>>> w/d:

    16mg to 8mg- He stayed on 8mg for one month
    8mg to 4 mg- one month
    4mg to 2 mg- one month
    2mg to 1mg- 2 weeks
    1mg to .5mg- 2 weeks
    .5mg to .25 mg- 1 week ( this was accomplished by taking a quarter of a 2mg pill every other day.)
    .25mg to .125mg- 1 week ( this was accomplished by taking a quarter of a 2mg pill once every 4 days.)
    After that, He came off!

    Note that this was a 50% reduction in dose each time. It takes approx 3 days for the plasma level in your body to level out for a dose change. ( hence why it take a few days for w/d to set in )

    Here's the interesting part: I asked him, me being shocked, if he ever met anyone else on Sub. He said no because most people his age were not >>>>>> addicts. This led me to believe that a large part of the w/d from suboxone is mental or " in your head ". I know this cannot be proven but this boy told me he never worried about the w/d and that made me think maybe that made it a lot easier? Remember he said it was virtually painless and the very worst was having a feeling of a slight cold, but was completely bearable. He said he was in a very good mood throughout because he was excited to be " entirely clean " He said that the feeling he got from his own willpower of being able to taper down and get off all on his own kept the w/d from bothering him at all!

    So my point here is this :
    1. I do not know medically how this is possible seeing as so many people on here say the w/d is worse than >>>>>>.

    2. This boy was about 5'-7" and 140lbs and said he had a fast metabolism so maybe this contributed to the easy w/d? I know that most people who even taper 1mg at a time have bad w/d's so I am dumbfounded here how he could do a 50% reduction and be fine.

    3. This has really caused me to believe that if you don't worry yourself about the w/d it won't be as bad.

    Thanks for reading and any experience getting off sub would be great! I look forward to reading your responses!
    Thanks!

  2. #2
    anonone17 is offline New Member
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    Isn't there anyone out there who has experience with getting off sub? I'd love to hear it.
    Thanks!

  3. #3
    Robert_325 is offline Diamond Elite
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    Quote Originally Posted by anonone17 View Post
    Isn't there anyone out there who has experience with getting off sub? I'd love to hear it.


    A 50% dose reduction at one time is too much for the majority of people. Most people would have w/d problems doing that. Patients should also do a process of skipping days at the end for the best results. At least that's my experience.

    There are sub threads all over the forum. Read around and you'll see how others do it. Here is how I used subs and what I recommend on the forum. God bless.

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/featured...apy-50887.html

  4. #4
    witch_md is offline New Member
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    Default Suboxone Tapering

    Tapering as above does seem a little fast. I'm an Addictions trained physician. The ABSOLUTELY fastest I tell someone to decrease is by about 2mg every 2 weeks. Then at the end the last 2 mg ( or a 2 mg tablet split in half, the do make a 2/.5 tablet also) every other day for two weeks, then every third day for two to 3 weeks. This program is almost always succesful.
    I tell people Suboxone is expected to be a 6 to 9 month program, they can be on it for longer. NOT a quick fix.

    3 reasons people are comonly unsuccesful at tapering:

    Not dealt with psychological reasions they were using.

    Thyroid levels are off-more common in women

    Testosterone is off-more common in men

    Baseline mood disorder, depression, etc. Suboxone increases dopamine. Just like the other opiates. But so do a lot of other medications. Go talk to a primary care doctor or someone who is REALLY skilled at this stuff. Not every one who can write a prescription is a good doc.

    And the original writer is incorrect. The correct dosing of Suboxone is in fact 16mg per day. Give or take. Max is 32. Your Receptors ore 97% full at 16mg a day so going above this is pretty pointless. Occationally we see a slower metabolizer who did a ton of opiates but only needed 4 mg or so of Suboxone to not crave. Otherwise slow metabolozers get "goofy" dysphoric. Go bact to Goodwin and Gilman my friend. Or down to your local methadone clinic and get some practical experience. Not everything is black and white. Lots and lots of grey out here.

  5. #5
    Robert_325 is offline Diamond Elite
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch_md View Post
    Tapering as above does seem a little fast. I'm an Addictions trained physician. The ABSOLUTELY fastest I tell someone to decrease is by about 2mg every 2 weeks. Then at the end the last 2 mg ( or a 2 mg tablet split in half, the do make a 2/.5 tablet also) every other day for two weeks, then every third day for two to 3 weeks. This program is almost always succesful.
    I tell people Suboxone is expected to be a 6 to 9 month program, they can be on it for longer. NOT a quick fix............................................... ...................................


    Go talk to a primary care doctor or someone who is REALLY skilled at this stuff. Not every one who can write a prescription is a good doc.

    And the original writer is incorrect. The correct dosing of Suboxone is in fact 16mg per day. Give or take. Max is 32. Your Receptors ore 97% full at 16mg a day so going above this is pretty pointless. Occationally we see a slower metabolizer who did a ton of opiates but only needed 4 mg or so of Suboxone to not crave. Otherwise slow metabolozers get "goofy" dysphoric. Go bact to Goodwin and Gilman my friend. Or down to your local methadone clinic and get some practical experience. Not everything is black and white. Lots and lots of grey out here.



    POO POO KAA KAA!!!! What a bunch of garbage ... this is exactly what the drug reps tell you doctors. 16 - 32mg ????? GIVE ME A BREAK DOC!

    This is exactly why so many people are in trouble with this medication. It's because of instructions like this. Reducing 2mg every two weeks is WRONG. You should try reducing the dose based on a % of what your patient's current dose is and based on what your patient's symptoms are. Buprenorphine is NOT a med where one standard rule applies to everyone. Drs don't give suboxone dosing instructions based on a patient's symptoms but rather like the 2mg every two weeks as you said. That's why so many people here are sick getting off this stuff.

    Being on suboxone for 6-9 months will give you a bunch of people addicted to suboxone instead of percocets or hydrocodone. That accomplishes nothing. Talk to some people who have successfully used subs rather than the drug reps who are trying to sell as much medication as possible. This is a situation where the patients who have been successful using subs know better than the drs who are responsible for getting people strung out.

    The science of receptors and such is not that complicated. You don't need to use suboxone for any 6-9 months. Suboxone isn't a cure, it's ONLY for helping someone to stop using opiates. It should be used short term for detox and hardly ever any longer than 60 days. If a patient hasn't committed to stop using opiates by then they're going to relapse anyway. 60 days gives them plenty of time to get into recovery or whatever lifestyle changes they are going to make.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-02-2009 at 06:04 PM.

  6. #6
    Anonymous Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch_md View Post
    Tapering as above does seem a little fast. I'm an Addictions trained physician. The ABSOLUTELY fastest I tell someone to decrease is by about 2mg every 2 weeks. Then at the end the last 2 mg ( or a 2 mg tablet split in half, the do make a 2/.5 tablet also) every other day for two weeks, then every third day for two to 3 weeks. This program is almost always succesful.
    I tell people Suboxone is expected to be a 6 to 9 month program, they can be on it for longer. NOT a quick fix.

    3 reasons people are comonly unsuccesful at tapering:

    Not dealt with psychological reasions they were using.

    Thyroid levels are off-more common in women

    Testosterone is off-more common in men

    Baseline mood disorder, depression, etc. Suboxone increases dopamine. Just like the other opiates. But so do a lot of other medications. Go talk to a primary care doctor or someone who is REALLY skilled at this stuff. Not every one who can write a prescription is a good doc.

    And the original writer is incorrect. The correct dosing of Suboxone is in fact 16mg per day. Give or take. Max is 32. Your Receptors ore 97% full at 16mg a day so going above this is pretty pointless. Occationally we see a slower metabolizer who did a ton of opiates but only needed 4 mg or so of Suboxone to not crave. Otherwise slow metabolozers get "goofy" dysphoric. Go bact to Goodwin and Gilman my friend. Or down to your local methadone clinic and get some practical experience. Not everything is black and white. Lots and lots of grey out here.
    witch_md

    I think about 99.9% of the people on this board will disagree !!!
    The biggest reason we are on this forum is because of people like you.
    Most people come here after seeing witch_md's...
    I have seen people that have been on Suboxone after nine months or longer and they have one HEL of a time getting off.
    We pretty much have figured out why you want us on the subs so long.
    Kind of like when are drug dealers don't want us to get clean.
    I think I would take my chances with staying on them short term and the lowest possible dose.

  7. #7
    anonone17 is offline New Member
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    Hey thanks a lot guys for posting! And yeah Robert, I kind of suspected she was a Dr. when she said " 16 MG is the CORRECT dose. " Last time I checked there was never any correct dose for more than one person when it relates to stuff like addiction. I thought that the Dr.'s treated the patients on a " individual case " basis? Guess not. Anyway, what I have really been trying to figure out on here is this: have you, Robert, or anyone else reading this had yourself or known anyone who was able to get off of suboxone in a fashion similar to what I listed above without horrible W/D's? The reason I am asking is because I still cannot figure out how this was done.

    After doing extensive reading on here especially of people experiences getting off, I do here the occasional " yeah sub w/d was no problem for me " story, but I am wondering if anyone could tell me what factors may have contributed to these people being able to taper down rather quickly and have such mild w/d?

    By the way, I happened to see this young man again today and asked him what kind of lifestyle he lived. He said that he runs almost daily at least a mile a day and had done that throughout the tapering process as well. He said the exercise made him forget about the w/d's entirely and that made it even easier. He also said that he was about 8-9% body fat.

    I am thinking that maybe this may have contributed to why he had such an easy time getting off? Do any of you guys think that maybe since he had low body fat, that less bupe was stored in his body, therefore keeping the w/d's shorter than average? Add that to the fact that he was exercising fairly heavily throughout the process which helped to burn even more fat and possibly speed up the elimination process further? I honestly do not know if any of this would make a difference seeing as I have never been on, or w/d'ed from bupe so I'm asking if you guys think it's possible.

    Any experiences you have had at all would be greatly appriciated! I am just finding that cold hard facts about the bupe withdrawl process are hard to come by and I can use all the real-world info I can get so maybe this will help me to figure out why some people have agonizing w/d's " worse than >>>>>> ", and for some it's cake.

    Also, Robert I read on one of the tapering threads you posted on that a patient can " cut his dose by 25% and maintain that for 4 days and if no w/d symptoms are felt, then it would be safe to taper another 25% " Just wanted to ask does that mean if a patient were taking say 2 mg's and they tapered to 1.5mg and held it for 4 days, felt nothing, they could most likely safely taper down to 1mg? I just do not understand why some people must taper down and maintain that about for say, two weeks before tapering again, but yet some can do it every four days?

    Thanks again everyone for all your help!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-02-2009 at 07:15 PM.
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    Thanks!

  8. #8
    Robert_325 is offline Diamond Elite
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    It's definitely a critical factor when patients exercise diligently while tapering. I always harp on exercise, it's the best opiate detox med there is. I'm not so sure about the low body fat, but the exercise helps with natural endorphine production and that helps with our overall well being.

    Everyone is a little different as far as tapering successfully goes. Most people CAN'T make it with reducing their dose by 50% like the example you gave. Like I said, exercise probably helped that person as well as some other individual body functions. I think it's basically impossible to say much beyond that with what information we have available.

    This person really took longer being on subs than the way I suggest using them. The only thing he did successfully that is a little surprising was the 50% reduction when he did make drops in his dose. Starting out at 8mg he would have finished the taper in eight weeks doing the taper the way I suggest.

    I used opiates for over 35 years. I came up with the process that I recommend here when I used subs myself. It worked for me without incident. Since I started posting on this forum I've had LOTS of people use subs and taper off successfully. It's the exception when we have problems.

    Tapering 25% every four days usually works just fine. But as the dose goes down so does the amount you taper by. It would go like from 8mg, to 6mg, to 4.5mg, to 3.375mg, etc. You simply take the current dose and multiply it times .75 and that will give you the next dose in the taper. Hope that helps. God bless.
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  9. #9
    intelmetal is offline Senior Member
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    Default suboxone taper

    Anonone17, I have been abusing opiates for the past 11 years, started w/ hydros, norcos, oxycodone, roxies, and finally METHADONE, LOTS OF METHADONE !!! I,m talking about 360mg per day for at least a year straight. That's nine 40mg wafers a day ! I would take 120mg am, 120mg noon, 120mg evening. The 1st 4 years of my addiction was to the regular short life stuff. Then I got tired of always chasing down pills and was told about this wonderful drug called methadone I had no idea what it was but I tried it and it worked for 24 hours straight. I thought I had solved my problem, no more popping pills every 4-6 hours, no more chasing all sorts of opiates from different sources, buying in bulk ( heck, it was so much cheaper and convenient ) . Boy was I wrong ! I did not realize it until it was to late and I was raising my dose weekly. I reached 360mg within 1 year ( my 5th year on opiates ), at that moment I knew I was in trouble, so I started to taper over the next 5 years or so. I took my last dose ( 20mgs ) of methadone on May 2nd, 2009 then saw doctor on May 4th, 2009. Was told to take 16mg per day, which I rejected. I told my doctor that I would not take any more than 8mg a day. Got script for 15 8mg subs and have only gone through 13 of them to date. Now lets go back 2 weeks, 2 days ago, my 2nd appt. w/ doctor was May 18, 2009, I went and said everything was going well, little did she know I was tapering and was already down to 2.5mg. Anyway, got another script for 30 8mg subs ( 1month supply ) LOL ! and as of today I have still not opened the stapled package w/ receipt attached to bag - bottle is still in bag w/ 30 8mg subs, I won't even open it for another week. My point is most doctors have no earthly idea as to the proper way to induct or what amount to prescribe their patients !!! I am tempted to not even go to my next appt., which is about 2 weeks away. At the rate I am tapering, I will not even use a fraction of my bottle of 30 that I have not opened. You see, this is not a drug that should be used long term, EVER ! I am now at 1mg per day and still tapering. With 256mg left over, get it? I would have to be a complete idiot to buy more, listen to doctors, listen to drug companies, etc. What am I to do with all this extra medication that I will have laying around ? I will probably flush it down the toilet. That a lot of money wasted on being over prescribed in the 1st place. Remember what I said earlier, that my doctor wanted to do 16mg per day. That is criminal ! In closing, it is not easy to get off subs, especially if you were on a long acting opiate such as methadone, unlucky me. But it can and is being done by brave people everyday. It is a thankless sacrifice we endure daily 24/7, but we are the survivors and will prevail. SAY NO TO DRUGS !!!!!!!
    IWANTOUT

    to live my life and to be free !
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-02-2009 at 09:12 PM. Reason: left words out
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  10. #10
    Dnote33 is offline New Member
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    Hi I have been on subs now for about 2 years. I started out taking about 16+ mg a day. After a few months i was taking only 2mg. I had to go to the doc every 2 weeks to get a new script. Once i had tappered down to 2mg a day he assumed i was good and cut me off. I started getting really bad hot/cold flashes so I had to buy more subs on the street. This means i have to keep talking to all my old friends so that i have a place to get my meds. If you are trying to quit, talking to your old friends is probably the WORST thing you could do. You go pick up your meds and see them sitting there doing your favorite thing. Its nearly impossible to stay clean this way. I have relapsed about 5 times within these 2 years. When i relapsed i had to take about 3x as much subs to stay well. At the moment i need about 4mg a day. 2mg in the morning and 2mg during the day when i start feeling w/d symptoms. If i do not take any subs i start overheating, i get the chills and can not sleep. These hot/cold flashes are different from >>>>>> ones. I know A LOT of people who have got off using subs and a lot(like myself) who struggle every day with it. One of my friends actually used working out as his suboxone. I have to agree fully that at least 50% of the withdrawls are mental(with subs) I want so much to not think about withdrawls but i know all too well how much it hurts. Getting off optiates is no easy task. It takes dedication, hard work, and determination. Above all, the USER has to WANT to be clean. If the will is not there no amount of medication will help. There is no easy way out of >>>>>>/opiate addiction and nothing is harder on this earth to do than get off opiates after years of use. Please pray for me. I need all the help i can get.
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  11. #11
    savannah16 is offline New Member
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    I appreciate n understand wat you hv discovered but I too tapered off suboxone had only been taking it for 2months n I did it slowly I was on 4ml a day so for 3 days I took only 2ml n then another 3days I took 1mg n then another 3days took 1/2 n then none BUT THRU OUT THAT PROSSES I TOOK SMALL DOSES OF VALIUM BCAUSE WTHDRAWLS WERE BAD N I HAD TO FUNCTION BUT ONLY TOOK VALIUM FOR 7DAYS AFTER THAT IVE DONE NOTHING BEEN SOBER I DONT GET ANY SLEEP MAYB 3HRS I TAKE MILOTONIN I DRINK SLEEPY TIME TEA I DONT DRINK CAFFIENE CUZ I ALREADY CANT SLEEP BUT ANYWAY ON THE 3RD DAY WTHOUT SUBOXONE IT WAS HORIBLE I THOUGHT I WAS NOT GONA MK IT OF CO>>>> EVERYBODY IS DIFF BUT I CUD HANDLE THE DIAREAH N THE HOT N COLD WHICH THOSE CHILL STINK BCAUSE YR BODY GETS LIKE 103 DEGREES FOR ABT A GOOD 5 TO 10MIN N THEN U JUST BREATH IT OUT THEN YR FREEZIN FOR THE NEXT 10 MIN N THAT HAPENED FOR BETWEEN 48 TO 72 HRS THEN LK ON MY 4TH DAY IT WAS ONLY SMALL CHILLS THEY CAME PRETTY RAPID BUT IT WAS TOLERABLE IT FELT BAD N I CRIED N CRIED ALOT N HAD RAGE BUT THRU ALOT OF PRAYER N MANY MANY BLESSINS I HV GOTEN THRU THE WORST OF IT BUT NOW IM EXPIRIENCIN ALOT OF LOWER BK PAIN SO BAD I HAD TO GO TO ER CUZ I WAS TAKIN TO MANY ADVIL N IT WASNT WORKIN I DID HV ALOT OF JOINT PAIN BUT NOTHIN COMPARES TO THE PAIN THAT IM XPIRIENCIN NOW I DONT NO WAT TO DO IM WAITIN ON THE DOC WHO GAVE ME THE MED TO C IF HE HAS AN ANSWER CUZ IM SO SCARED I DONT WANT TO TAKE ANY OPIETES I LK THE WAY I FEEL NOW I CAN C CLEARLY I DONT HV THIS CLOUD OVER MY EYES IT FEELS SO GOOD BUT I DONT NO WAT TO DO BOUT THIS BK PAIN I NEED TO NO IF ITS A SIDE EFFECT FR THE SUBOXONE DOES ANYONE NOW?

  12. #12
    savannah16 is offline New Member
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    Well yes i do n im givin u my expirience firts ofall i was only on it for 2months but i didnt lk it i didnt want to cook anymore i didnt lk music it just completly changed who i am,so i did h the privalige to go detox in rehab so had to do it at home so this is how i did it so i was takin 4ml a day then after 3days i took only 2ml wth a small dose valium u cud do klonopin just some kind of tranqualizer in rehab they give u adivan then another 3days i took 1ml hen another 3days i took 1/2 for the next 3days n then none so depending on the mil yr on you start it lk that by the dose u take but u change yr dose every 3days its still suks n its freakin hard it tkes alot of strength n will n how bad u want to get off it by the 3rd day my body didnt get the meds the hell began bu the good news is the worst of it only lasted bout 72hrs my body wud b on fire it shot up wel felt lk 103 degrees n that lasted bout 10min then my body was so cold i mean freezin n that hapened for 3days of course after i didnt tk the valium anymore i didnt sleep at all mayb 3hrs in 24hr period i started takin milotonin n i drink alot of sleepy time tea n also nuerotin bcause this >>>> causes alot of join pain i wudnt tk any tranqualizer no more then 10 days cuz then u hv to wing yrself of that too so im on my 4th day sober but this mornin y lower bk hurts so bad i had to go to the er i was takin to much advil n it wasnt takin the pain away so i freaked out cuz i want to b sober i can finally c clearly now n it feels so good even thru al this pain and anguish i wanted to literly die i was very blessed to hv family n friends that helped me i wud hv never been able to do it alone i probly wud hv hurt myself s the er gave me shot tordial n send me home wth tramidol but its barely takin the pain away n im afraid to tk those too so im waitin on the doc that gave e the suboxone to c if this is normal side effect cuz i am terified i hope i was able to help u some how this drug is the devil i hate it i wud rather die then take it again i want my life bk i love to dance n cook n wth that med i cudnt do any of it i had no desire too at all if u need to talk plz feel free to cal me 512-734-6747 it will also help me my name is buffy

  13. #13
    Frankydank is offline New Member
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    I know no one has posted on this thread in a couple months but in the hope that someone finds this and wonders which of these methods are valid or easiest and other things associated with tapering down to get off bupe (suboxone/subutex) I thought I would share my experiences. I have successfully tapered off of suboxone 3 separate times now over the past 6 years and each time was able to stay off for at least 6 months before I relapsed and went back to oxy/>>>>>>, started using again, then had to go through the process of going from opioids to sub and then sub to nothing all over again. Because of this I'm probably not the best person to give advice on the mental side of staying 100% sober, dealing with post acute withdrawal syndrome, and not eventually going back to your drug of choice. On the other hand, because of my multiple unsuccessful attempts at tapering off sub and the 3 subsequent times that I have succeeded in doing so, I feel like I am in an ideal position to share my experience and what has worked for me.
    First and foremost you need to get down to a sensible dose to start your taper. Doctors these days will prescribe people 2 or 3 8mg subs a day which in my opinion is a ridiculously and unnecessarily high dose. This is just from personal experience and my humble opinion but I really don't think that with how strong of a half agonist opioid bupenorphin is that ANYONE, no matter whether ur coming off a 3 gram a day herion habit or just a two or 3 perk 10s a day habit needs anymore than 8 mg a day to suppress almost all withdrawal symptoms. The first days you switch from you drug of choice to sub can be uncomfortable but in my experience this is short lived and mostly mental. So first off if your on 2 or 3 a day and have been for at least a couple weeks I would stay by tapering down to 8mg a day either by cutting your dose in half a week at a time or even going down a mg at a time each week. I would suggest staying at that does for at least two weeks to let your body get used to that dose and to prepare for further tapering. After this I would suggest cutting your dose in half every two weeks. This may seem drastic but if u give yourself two weeks in between each cut, it should only be mildly uncomfortable for the first few days after each cut because until you get to the 1mg range your are still ingesting a good amount of a very potent opioid even tho it seems like a small amount of the actual pill/strip. The reason people mistake it's potency is because since it is only a half-agonist opioid, as opposed to full agonists such as oxy, methadone, >>>>>>, etc. it only binds to the receptors that prevent withdrawal as opposed to the receptors that get you high. So even though it is not binding to the receptors that get you high, it has a very high affinity and half-life when it binds to the other receptors (meaning it bonds very strongly to the receptors and stays bonded with them for a long time, they just aren't the same receptors that get you high, they are instead the ones that cause withdrawal if not stimulated) Now the next part is why a lot of people end up still experiencing acute withdrawals, they try to go from 1 mg to nothing, which is still quite a jump off and still makes you withdraw. At the very least I would recommend going from 1 mg to 1/2 mg after at least 2 weeks at 1mg. Then if you want the very least amount of withdrawal I would take 1/2 mg for another 2 weeks, then go to 1/4 mg, take 1/4 a mg for 2 weeks then jump off to nothing. I know 1/4 a mg is small and hard to measure but if you get the strips (which I think most people do now) just get a sharp knife or scissors and cut a 4th in half (1mg) , then cut 1 of those 8ths in half (1/2mg), then cut 1 of those 16ths in half (1/4mg). This is going to be a tiny piece your taking everyday but on the upside it won't take many subs to taper off at these rates and doses. Then once you've been taking a 32nd of an 8mg sub for a minimum of 2 weeks then I would go down to taking nothing. I realize this would be harder with the tablets so if u want to try this and are prescribed them you could ask your doctor abt switching to the strips or if your just buying them to get clean try to find someone with strips. The doctors usually won't tell you all this or say that going to such a low dose is necessary to jump off from but in my experience they either are misinformed or just want you to keep coming back so they keep getting paid. You have to think that the people who educate the doctors about these drugs are the same people making them and thus making more $ off the more you take and the longer you take them, and the doctor stands to make more money the longer you are on them and have to come pay to see him every month. It might be a little uncomfortable going to nothing as well as mentally challenging but at that low of a dose I have found that the symptoms are primarily mental and that with a few days of sleep aids, lots of hot showers/baths, and maybe some immodium it is more than manageable and well worth it. Sorry this was so long I just wanted to be thorough and not skip over anything. And again I'm not a doctor or addiction specialist I'm just a guy who's learned a lot about this process through experience, research, and trial and error. It may be harder or easier depending on the person but I think if you follow this method your odds of success will be greatly increased. Please feel free to correct any mistakes I have made about the science behind it and to ask any questions or leave any comments on if this worked or didn't work for you. Thanks for reading and good luck with getting off this >>>> for good!!
    Anthony
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  14. #14
    JamesSeymour is offline New Member
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    Default Alright

    Bupe does bind to the receptors that "get you high" however bupe binds to opioid receptors imperfectly. You'll find that users of suboxone who are not going through recovery and users who have been sober for long periods of time WILL get high from this drug. The reason those in the recovery process do not get high (but feel "normal") is because their brain chemistry is in a transition period. From a flood of dopamine, to a severe lack.
    Also, I agree the so called Dr is just advertising for the drug companies and regurgitating what the pharm reps sold her. Anyway, as my own dr and I discussed uping my dose he told me "the manufacturers recommended dose is 16mg a day, but of course they want you to take more" He also told me there wasn't a huge difference of how well saturated or flooded the receptors become beyond 8mg doses. If anyone is really curious check the studies.
    Finally, I agree with he original author- if you're going through hell slowly tapering down than you most likely haven't dealt with the emotional aspect of getting off drugs. I no longer positively associate with the drug I'm taking which has made my transition that much easier. I can only assume if you're having a hard time at a slow taper than you've been using suboxone as a replacement for drugs not a channel to get clean.

  15. #15
    Tony Tranz is offline New Member
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    Hey I'm new to this site BECAUSE I have to share my experience on suboxone. What this this pharmacist is tellin you is absolutely correct. Take it from me 2 year oxy addict. 1 year sub 6 months clean then on 1 year of sub again. I'm on day 7 of no sub... I'm up at 4am yeah but I slept all night last night and I'm fine.... for the last 6 months ONE SUBOXONE lasted me 1 month of every day 2 times a day dose. I've never got help for my problems. I know when enough is enough and I quit on my own. It worked and then I fell down while of course in my happy state. ( this drug brings me down I get clean/happy I get high and it starts all over). But the worse part of this drug is breaking the mental state. I did both of these breaks while working in a garage on cars. So ill explain more.


    I started only on 4 mgs of subs to help with a mild on off oxy addiction. I binged one summer and discovered suboxon. I got high from it yippee. A month in I relized how bad it was and when I couldn't get any I lost my mind. So I dropped 300 bucks on 30 sublinguals and figured this out. After my first withdrawl state. 2 days of the worst hell from 4mgs/day. I relised that ANY DOSE will help so i cut it down smaller just to (get by) I made my one suboxone last 4/ 5 days. That's 1.5 to 2 mgs a day roughly. I did this for about 3 months because I was in college and couldn't be botherd. I ended up stretching one out to last a week. But I wanted to quit I started to get depressed and the magic was gone. So I tried

    2 days never was able to make it to the third... okay now in my room I have my suboxone I cut the sublinguals into 7ths then 7ths again. That's 14. One suboxone is now going to last me 2 weeks.. (remembering dosing twice a day) and using scissors cut up. This went on till the end of the school year. I'm fine... my biggest advise is of you can go through pain for 2 days or even 36 hours between a dose. On that 36 hour any dose will make you feel BETTER so lower your dose! Your body Cleaned the madness out and lowered your tolerance.

    I tried to quit again and took a different aproch. Read you could sniff sublinguals. What I did was I tried to go long as I could before I felt withdrawls. I took a small amount. The runny noise went away and aches. So I tried that and failed to get off. But again going though withdrawls for even so much as a day or 2 or hitting them 3 times in one day I lowered my dose once again.

    By cutting and sniffing I was able to not get withdrawl from sub by cumsuming just enough so I would feel ok feel normal but not my best. This turned out to be one suboxone lasted me 1 month. Yes and if I doubled dosed at this point or tool my dose that would make a suboxone last only 2 weeks. I would get high. But besides that. I had a fall out at work about 3 months of being on 1 sub/a month and had to quit. So I did no pain first day is the roughest but you recovered already your done it's waiting on you to stop now. No pain no problems. My sleep is 6 hours a night but that gets fixed in a few weeks. I'm proving the theroy again. I wish I could help people out so bad on how to get off this. One tab a day will take a 1 year taper. Save your sub set your self up have 100 extra because If you lose your sscript your screwed. But if you want to stop taking it


    The longer the better.
    You can feel .25 MGs of sub.
    Withdrawing is good! Feel the pain but please lower your dose! 24/48 hrs will lower your tolerance soooo much and half will make you feel better. Feeling better is better the withdrawl so lower the dose.
    if you can get to this point the sub is on your side. Anti diarrheal medican is amazing stuff. It will help with withdrawl if you cunsume alot. 10 or so but only on .25 mgs a day.

    When your ready at the end of your long taper to success. The sub will be on your side and ypu will be off as if you were never on it !


    I'm no English major but hope this helps

  16. #16
    Rob33 is offline New Member
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    Taper taper taper 6 month 12mg to 0mg its the last part that's the hardest keep tapering till your off. lots of good tapering plans out there pick what works for you. Anyone with longer than a year be prepared for depression from the lack of dopamine. i never had depression but do now. i was on sub for 5 years didnt want to believe depression would happen to me but its real theres a chemical imbalance from the sub and doc says up to18 months for the brain to return to normal levels. Meanwhile i'm in month 4 and its real trying my third anti-depressant the first 2 didnt agree with me. the young man you spoke of is blessed wish i was so lucky but from what ive read hes not the norm unless its a quick in and out program. I wish my original doctor had informed me of the mess this causes down the road. Hope this helps

  17. #17
    Mhale5683 is offline New Member
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    Hi, I am not a Dr but I have been on suboxone for almost three years and there is no easy way to get off of suboxone, even from a low dose, it is very difficult, I have tried weaning off through a Dr and still had horrible withdrawals, but one thing I do know is that the high doses that people are started on is not necessary, it just causes a dependence on a new drug and the WDS from suboxone are 10x worse and last much much longer and the Drs that prescribe the meds know only what they are taught from books, a lot more research should have been done before this drug was released. I recently learned that of the hundreds of patients that were on suboxone through the outpatient program that I was in, only ONE successful got off of it! It's a horrible thing because so many of us want to be clean and we were told that this MIRACLE drug would only be a temporary thing, but is it really? My life IS completely changed and I am much more stable, happy to say I have not used any other drugs since I have been on suboxone (October 15 2013) but I fear I will be on this for the rest of my life!

  18. #18
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mhale5683 View Post
    Hi, I am not a Dr but I have been on suboxone for almost three years and there is no easy way to get off of suboxone, even from a low dose, it is very difficult, I have tried weaning off through a Dr and still had horrible withdrawals, but one thing I do know is that the high doses that people are started on is not necessary, it just causes a dependence on a new drug and the WDS from suboxone are 10x worse and last much much longer and the Drs that prescribe the meds know only what they are taught from books, a lot more research should have been done before this drug was released. I recently learned that of the hundreds of patients that were on suboxone through the outpatient program that I was in, only ONE successful got off of it! It's a horrible thing because so many of us want to be clean and we were told that this MIRACLE drug would only be a temporary thing, but is it really? My life IS completely changed and I am much more stable, happy to say I have not used any other drugs since I have been on suboxone (October 15 2013) but I fear I will be on this for the rest of my life!
    No need to be on subs long term, we can help you get off the subs if you want? Let us know because there is a great sub taper plan that many members have used here with great success!
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  19. #19
    Joy forbes is offline New Member
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    Default Tapering off Suboxone

    Doing it slowly. is the key to avoid the pain of withdrawal. The biggest problem is the mental piece. I'm so afraid of the pain of withdrawal that I always give up tapering. Somehow in my heart of hearts I can't believe that it will be painless. And I want to feel good. Mentally and physically. And with suboxone I do. I'm just so afraid to do without it.

  20. #20
    Joy forbes is offline New Member
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    Please post this great plan to taper off Suboxone. Thanks

  21. #21
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy forbes View Post
    Please post this great plan to taper off Suboxone. Thanks
    Joy - if you are still checking in here then please start your own thread in the Suboxone Treatment forum, here's a link - https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone-treatment/

  22. #22
    BR1354 is offline New Member
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    Default Suboxone taper -success

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    Joy - if you are still checking in here then please start your own thread in the Suboxone Treatment forum, here's a link - https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone-treatment/
    I have been on sub for 2 years and tried to taper couple of times and I failed. finally developed a way on how to get ride of it. It is not hard to taper to 0.2 mg per day and you can do it even to 0.1 mg per day. One I riched this point I used codeine to go to lower doage of subs. I used extraction method to extract codeine from the pills. I is WAY WAY easier to get off codeine. I am on 80 mg/d of codeine no subs. and tapering off codine

  23. #23
    TiredDone is offline New Member
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    I know this is an old post, but I went all the way down to 1/4 mg a day for two weeks then every other day then every third day then off. The w/d has not been bad. My doctor gave me loperamide for the slight diarrhea and baclofen in case I get body aches, which I have not had. I have not taken any for 4 days and am doing fine so far.

  24. #24
    Heatherdep526 is offline New Member
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    I have been taking 1mg Suboxone for 3 years. The last 2 weeks, I've been taking like 3/4 of a mg. I took the last piece yesterday and. What is going to happen? I need and want off so badly
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  25. #25
    Pandemonium713 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by anonone17 View Post
    Hey thanks a lot guys for posting! And yeah Robert, I kind of suspected she was a Dr. when she said " 16 MG is the CORRECT dose. " Last time I checked there was never any correct dose for more than one person when it relates to stuff like addiction. I thought that the Dr.'s treated the patients on a " individual case " basis? Guess not. Anyway, what I have really been trying to figure out on here is this: have you, Robert, or anyone else reading this had yourself or known anyone who was able to get off of suboxone in a fashion similar to what I listed above without horrible W/D's? The reason I am asking is because I still cannot figure out how this was done.

    After doing extensive reading on here especially of people experiences getting off, I do here the occasional " yeah sub w/d was no problem for me " story, but I am wondering if anyone could tell me what factors may have contributed to these people being able to taper down rather quickly and have such mild w/d?

    By the way, I happened to see this young man again today and asked him what kind of lifestyle he lived. He said that he runs almost daily at least a mile a day and had done that throughout the tapering process as well. He said the exercise made him forget about the w/d's entirely and that made it even easier. He also said that he was about 8-9% body fat.

    I am thinking that maybe this may have contributed to why he had such an easy time getting off? Do any of you guys think that maybe since he had low body fat, that less bupe was stored in his body, therefore keeping the w/d's shorter than average? Add that to the fact that he was exercising fairly heavily throughout the process which helped to burn even more fat and possibly speed up the elimination process further? I honestly do not know if any of this would make a difference seeing as I have never been on, or w/d'ed from bupe so I'm asking if you guys think it's possible.

    Any experiences you have had at all would be greatly appriciated! I am just finding that cold hard facts about the bupe withdrawl process are hard to come by and I can use all the real-world info I can get so maybe this will help me to figure out why some people have agonizing w/d's " worse than >>>>>> ", and for some it's cake.

    Also, Robert I read on one of the tapering threads you posted on that a patient can " cut his dose by 25% and maintain that for 4 days and if no w/d symptoms are felt, then it would be safe to taper another 25% " Just wanted to ask does that mean if a patient were taking say 2 mg's and they tapered to 1.5mg and held it for 4 days, felt nothing, they could most likely safely taper down to 1mg? I just do not understand why some people must taper down and maintain that about for say, two weeks before tapering again, but yet some can do it every four days?

    Thanks again everyone for all your help!
    OK so I wouldn't say it was fun but I have been coming off suboxone from 28mgs for the last year and I've only ever been in mild w/d. For me the biggest problem was that I felt sooooooooooooo tired all the time. And the energy depletion didn't go away until I was at like half a mg. And I think that it's mostly restlessness from increased w/d. I'm day 3 into jumping off half a mg.
    I am 65 kgs and 178cm.
    I don't do any exercise. But I have a very good immune system. It's very rare that I get sick and when I do its very very mild. I got dengue fever once and it was like a mild flu when my mum and brother got it they were both in hospital getting blood transfusions.
    I think that might be a reason? But I'm certainly not healthy from eating right and exercising. I eat >>>> and I'm so lazy.
    Who knows. Everyone is so different! Our biological makeup is so unique.
    One other thing I might mention though is that I have a very high tolerance to most drugs and even alcohol. I have to take a lot for it to work. That may mean I either have a very slow drug metabolism not a fast one because if it was fast I would get very very high but it wouldn't last long. I need to take a lot to get high and effects last longer than usual. Just thought I'd mention this as it may have something to do with it as well. No sure. What you think of that?

  26. #26
    hayleyj80 is offline New Member
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    Default Jumped from 16mg Bupe Day 8

    I'm on day 8 of going cold turkey from 16 mrs Buprenorphine. I'm starting to think the w/d are just now kicking in. >>>>. I can smell the stench of w/d seeping out of my pores and my pupils are dilated so there's that. GOOOOOOOOOOD!

    I've been on bupe (Subutex) for 4 and 1/2 years now and I'm conflicted as to whether or not I should continue with it. I started out on Suboxone initially and when I became pregnant with my 2nd son I switched to Buprenorphine. That was 3 years a go. I've never been an IV user or done street drugs. My love affair has been with pharmaceuticals. I'll never forget the first time I took a hydrocodone. I had a bad miscarriage and was prescribed it for pain. It was for pain and I wasn't in pain so I wasn't going to get it. My boyfriend at the time said "Oh, you are getting that." Now I understand why he said that to me. I LOVED IT. I mean LOVED. I've always struggled with depression and had been on almost every anti-depressant/mood stabilizer imaginable. This was it. I had found what I'd been needing. Like a switch in my brain had been flipped. SO the affair with everything from 500 hydros to 80 mg Oxi's lasted for 11 years on and off depending on what I could get my hands on. And alcohol too.

    I've attempted to taper many times and just can't seem to do it so I just had to jump. No, my doctor doesn't know and I do have a prescription with one refill but I'm hanging on to it. I haven't fully decided if I'm truly ready to be off of it. I was jerked off of it a year ago after I came clean with my doctor about taking more clonazepam than I was supposed to. My husband wanted me off of both the Kpins and the Bupe. My doctor told him NO, she's not ready but we did it anyway. SO I was forced off both at the same time and that lasted for about 11 days. I was not in a good place. Unimaginable, mouth watering cravings. I did not want to go to the extremes that I had gone to in years past to satisfy them and I think you all know what I mean and what that feels like. So I told my husband that I was going back on the Bupe. it was happening. Night and day. Magic. Cravings gone and mood stable and motivation was up. SO what I'm saying is that I will swear by the fact that it's likely that Bupe helps with symptoms of depression.
    No doubt.
    Clonidine, Gabapentin, Modafinil, and Loperamide have saved me thus far.


    Hayley

  27. #27
    Julayne11 is offline New Member
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    I started on subs after taking vicodin to get off Meth then graduated to methadone. I wasn't on very much per day and had after two weeks decided I'd stop taking the methadone. I was shocked how hard the WD was and had no idea what I was in for. I then got on subs and was advised to take 16 mg a day. Cut to 8 then was sporadic with my dosage. One fact remains my Dr told debated with me many times as to this medication being a help or a crutch.I knew from the gate it was crutch and I was not sober.when I began researching how to get off of the the pharmacist told me just to stop taking them and I'd be just fine and I wanted to punch him in the face. I told him he needed to do some homework on subs if he was to advise anyone in the future. I must say my jump was all mental. I agree 100% that if you had someone unaware and on a steady taper they may have less of an issue with WD. That's what I noticed was when I let my old wonder into something I was interested in my physical symptoms would go away . I'd quickly remember but yes it would pass and went in waves when I stayed busy.
    I agree 100% that people are misinformed and are on say to much and yes can get high on subs and are for sure not sober!

  28. #28
    dskay211 is offline New Member
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    Default Suboxone back to MS Contin-what is the right way to do it?

    My doc put me on an initial dose of 8mg 2x/day to come off MS Contin that I have been taking at a level dose (I’m legally disabled) for over 10 years [even after the mandatory cutback I didn’t complain, we increased my breakthrough meds slightly…anyway, I digress.]

    So the 16mg left in agony and within 3 days he bumped my dosage up to 8mg 3x/day. Made me feel ill all the time. Lost 6 lbs in 1 week. A shell of myself. Now it is only 1 week since I’ve started these wretched things & I'm going back to the MS Contin. Doc says not everyone can handle or needs it.

    I donated though the withdrawal was like a bad cold. But when I was coming off the morphine I was in agony until the subs kicked in. How do I stop the Suboxone & restart the morphine? Do I have to go through the agony again or if I start the morphine before the subs are out of my system will they help at all?

    Pls, I needs guidance. This has been hell week.

  29. #29
    joshaphotos is offline New Member
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    I know this is a very old thread but I wanted to add my 2 cents as far as the mental addiction part is concerned because in my opinion there is a lot of truth to that.

    Before I ever began using suboxone and before I was a full fledged addict, many years ago I was addicted to hydrocodone from a back injury. I would get 100 5/500 APAP every month. I had this for about 4 months and then told my Dr. I didn't want them anymore. I had no idea what withdrawal was and had never heard of what coming off of narcotics was like. I noticed that after about 24 hours I was feeling ill. I also noticed that I couldn't sleep because of a weird sensation in my legs and feet but I wrote it off to itchy skin and used some of that numbing lotion on them and eventually fell asleep. This would go on for about 4 or 5 days and then I noticed that the symptoms were getting better and after about a week and half I felt pretty normal again.

    Now, many years later and after becoming addicted to pain medicine after another bad accident, I am not naive and I realize now that I was going through opiate withdrawal. But now that I know it's withdrawal, I can't bring myself to make it through. I cave in after about a week because of the insomnia. But it seems to me that the first time was easy because I had no idea what it was and didn't know that if i took a pain pill, I would immediately feel better.

    So given that history and my many attempts thereafter to get sober now knowing that it was withdrawal, I would have to say that a LOT of withdrawal is mental. The anxiety especially. I know that some of it comes from the physical symptoms of withdrawal but it seems to me that a great deal of the anxiety, which in turn creates insomnia, which in turn creates aches and pains and more anxiety, is solely from the mental awareness of the fact that we know what it's going to be like during withdrawal and mentally cannot prepare for it.

    I'm still using buprenorphine. About 2 mg's every other day. I honestly don't think I could stop now without being in a medically monitored environment that can provide medication for sleep and the RLS. I also feel like if there were more rehab facilities that catered to a 2 week medically monitored withdrawal period, there would be a much higher success rate of those who choose to get clean. Almost all relapses come from people who can't make it through those first couple weeks of anxiety and insomnia. At least in the people I've talked to about this. I know that a lot of relapses do come from the addiction itself and the need to "feel" something, but a lot of them come from the sole fact that a lot of people cannot, or will not, go though the pain of those first couple weeks, up to a month. If there were a cheaper route of inpatient, medically monitored detox and withdrawal, I think that there would be a vast decline in the amount of relapses. And of course there needs to be counselling and a strong support system for at least the first 6 months.

    If the government could work towards creating clinics that were for inpatient withdrawal, I firmly believe that a lot of addicts could finally find the route to recovery. Of course my word means little seeing as how I'm still an addict using buprenorphine, but I feel that my opinion is sound and rooted in science, both physical and psychological. I doubt there will ever be a government assisted withdrawal program but it seems like it would be better than using medicaid and medicare to pay for buprenorphine for years or potentially the rest of the patients life.

    I feel like this merits some more research in the scientific community.

    Sorry if I rambled slightly. I hope you could understand the 2 main points clearly enough. That a lot of withdrawal is all mental and that a medicated withdrawal would greatly reduce the risk of relapse.
    Josh A.
    Central Virginia

  30. #30
    Monkeyssuboxone is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by anonone17 View Post
    Isn't there anyone out there who has experience with getting off sub? I'd love to hear it.
    I've been on opiates since early 20s. All rx. I've never taking drugs recreationally. I wanted off them so my dr prescribed me suboxone. I'm trying to get off them. So far so good.
    I was taking them 3x day
    I went to 2, taking the 3rd as needed. Remember I've been on morphine, narco, methadone for over 25 years.
    Once I realized I havent taken 3 in over a month I started taking my morning dose later and later until I didn't need it at all. I went to just one at night. After less than a month of that I went to 1/2. I am now taking one quarter every 3 days. Only when I start having withdrawals. It's a great feeling to be getting off them. I listen to my body. I don't fight it as I completely forget about the Suboxone. I do know when I don't keep busy is when the w/d get worse. Which is hard with my health problems. Lift heavy things to get the best endorphins. It helps the most
    Anyway you asked how people do it. This is part of my story.

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