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Sickly & need help tapering off subs!!
  1. #1
    Sickly72 is offline New Member
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    Default Sickly & need help tapering off subs!!

    My husband & I are long time opioid users from surgeries to aches & pains with other health issues.
    We're ages 45 & 58, we've been taking subxone for a CPL months now. Docs wouldn't give us our pain meds anymore & going thru w/D's isn't any fun either!! The cost is overwhelming along with the sick feelings we have & the depression my husband is suffering.
    We both started on 8 MGS each daily, recently trying to taper off with 4 MGS a day. 2 MGS in am & 2 in the evening.. I'm currently having that feeling, "wish I could puke, us feel better!", Then don't & feel that way most of the day.. husband's has those feelings, but his depression has me more concerned.. I'm wondering if the subs have this effect on him or if him not having his testosterone shots might be the reason..?!
    I'm thinking we just need to taper off, after reading how long it takes to get off of these & the cost in the long run!
    If anyone could advise us on a good tapering system & away to stop the nausea, that's wonderful..
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-12-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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  2. #2
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickly72 View Post
    My husband & I are long time opioid users from surgeries to aches & pains with other health issues.
    We're ages 45 & 58, we've been taking subxone for a CPL months now. Docs wouldn't give us our pain meds anymore & going thru w/D's isn't any fun either!! The cost is overwhelming along with the sick feelings we have & the depression my husband is suffering.
    We both started on 8 MGS each daily, recently trying to taper off with 4 MGS a day. 2 MGS in am & 2 in the evening.. I'm currently having that feeling, "wish I could puke, us feel better!", Then don't & feel that way most of the day.. husband's has those feelings, but his depression has me more concerned.. I'm wondering if the subs have this effect on him or if him not having his testosterone shots might be the reason..?!
    I'm thinking we just need to taper off, after reading how long it takes to get off of these & the cost in the long run!
    If anyone could advise us on a good tapering system & away to stop the nausea, that's wonderful..
    We can definitely help you. Can you give us just a little more info that will help us? What kind of pain pills were you taking and how many mgs per day? I understand that you began the subs at 8mg each per day. That's a really high dose and you probably didn't need that much and may be why you are nauseous. How many reductions have you made and am I correct that you are now at 4mg per day of the sub? Try to give us an idea of how you reduced, exactly where you are right now and how long you've been there. Provide details as close as you can remember. Such as, were on 8mg for 4 weeks, then reduced to 6mg, etc. Have you bounced around with your dose at all? Details. We can probably help you to understand why you're feeling badly and how you can get on track, feel better and complete a proper taper.

    I'll watch for you to post and then try to give you some advice. If you dropped your dose from 8mg/day directly to 4, I am not at all surprised that you're having trouble. We use a taper plan that works and once you're able to get stable, you should feel fairly well. Post soon! Lots of folks will be around to help. You should look for Robert's Sub Taper Plan that's on a sticky on this Forum. It explains in detail how to slowly taper and jump. If done correctly, you should be done in a couple of months. There is no need to suffer. That's crazy.

    Peace,

    Cat

  3. #3
    Sickly72 is offline New Member
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    Yes, you are correct. We're both currently taking 4 MGS. & Started on 8 mg a day a back in Feb. This yr.. ( about 4 months) started tapering down last week..
    We've both been prescribed & taken a bit of everything over the yrs. I've had a lot of health issues & my husband has had car & motorcycle accidents, along with a knee replacement & we're both suffering from chronic back pain..
    I've been on pain meds off & on since I was 15 years old starting out with endometriosis. My last doctor was giving me 60 MGS of morphine twice a day with 30 MGS of instant release morphine for brake through. My husband has also, taking them for a long period of his life from car to motorcycle, also with knee replacement over 1 1/2 ago. He was last on 30 mg Roxy's 5 times a day. Yes, that's a lot for both of us, but we've both been taking them for long periods of time & have a higher tolerance.
    I really hope this info helps you help us. We really appreciate the info. & Support!!

  4. #4
    Sickly72 is offline New Member
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    Didn't mean to repeat myself, was editing & didn't delete.
    Sorry!!

  5. #5
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Thanks. That helps a lot. Reducing from 8mg to 4 within one week is way too quick. Your reductions should NOT exceed 25%. So, because you were taking 8mg, you should not have reduced to less than 6mg/day. How many days have you been taking 4mg without taking more on any given day? If it's been less than a week, I'd hang in there for a few more days and allow yourself to get stable at that dose. You can take 2mg in the morning and the other 2mg about 10 hours later but don't take it too close to bedtime. Once you are feeling stable (little to no symptoms) then it's time to reduce by another 25% or down to 3mg/day. Stay there for at least 4 days and then reduce by another 25%. I you aren't feeling well, DON'T reduce. Because you reduced by 50%, it's going to take a bit longer to become stable but if you've got a few days in at this dose, I'd do my best to ride it out until you do stabilize. And you will if you give it some time.

    The half life of subs is very long and that's why it's important to taper slowly. They are also very strong. It's estimated that subs are about 30 times stronger than morphine. Most people don't need more than 4mg of sub when they first induct. Almost all, if not all, sub doctors prescribe doses that are just too high causing people to have lots of trouble getting off of them and not feeling as well as they could the entire time they are tapering. It's the antagonist in the subs that keeps you from getting the opiate buzz while the agonist keeps your receptors full so that you don't feel the severe withdrawal symptoms. Moving forward, you may feel a bit off after a reduction for a couple of days and then begin to feel better. And this is the method you should follow until you've reduced all the way down to less than .25 (1/4) of a mg per day. Lots of people do one or two more reductions down to .125mg/day. At that point you can either jump or do a couple of skip days. If you decide to do the skip days, once you're stable at that really low dose, you would dose, skip a day, dose, skip 2 days, dose and be done. This has proven to provide the softest landing once you're completely done with the subs.

    I think that the amount of sub you and your husband have been taking is just simply too high and that's why it's making you sick to your stomach. I'm also going to guess that once you get stable on less, you're going to feel much better. Most people who newly induct on subs are able to get stable on 4mg/day or less even if they've been using very high doses of opiates for extended periods of time.

    If you have questions, ask and either I or someone else will be along to help. If at any time you need help with the calculations for your new dose, we'll help. Things to remember that are important:

    Don't go up and down with your dose trying to find the right one to make you feel better. Trust the process and you may feel off for a couple of days but stick with it and you will begin to feel better after just a few days.

    Don't reduce by more than 25% at a time. You can reduce by less, but never more.

    Don't reduce until you are stable, little to no symptoms

    Also remember that everyone is a little different so you and your husband may be ready to reduce at different times. I'd keep a calendar with notes of when each of you reduce and what your new dose is. At some point I'm sure that one of you will be ready to reduce before the other and I can only imagine how confusing that would get.

    If you're wondering how you are going to get accurate doses, don't fret. Even when you get to crumbs per day there are ways. You can find a video on YouTube concerning dividing sub doses. It was posted by a member several years ago. His name is Harry Smooth.

    Good Luck and keep posting! Lots of folks here will support you and answer any questions you have.

    Peace,

    Cat

  6. #6
    Sickly72 is offline New Member
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    Thanks cat,
    Today is the 4th day to be exact of reduction & the sick feeling... I'm sure we will be different, I don't seem to need as much or as often as him & yes it has become very confusing!!
    I thought I read something about ginger for nausea, but can't find it now.?
    Was also wondering, if the depression would go away for my husband with more, less or just side effect??
    We definitely need support & advice..
    Thanks
    I'm going to guess, I'm not sleeping bc were doing our night dose too Late??
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  7. #7
    Sickly72 is offline New Member
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    That would be very helpful, Catrina. Could you plz send that link to the YouTube video on splitting doses?

  8. #8
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickly72 View Post
    Thanks cat,
    Today is the 4th day to be exact of reduction & the sick feeling... I'm sure we will be different, I don't seem to need as much or as often as him & yes it has become very confusing!!
    I thought I read something about ginger for nausea, but can't find it now.?
    Was also wondering, if the depression would go away for my husband with more, less or just side effect??
    We definitely need support & advice..
    Thanks
    I'm going to guess, I'm not sleeping bc were doing our night dose too Late??
    It could be that you are taking your second dose too close to bedtime. Lots of people report that it interferes with their sleep so try to take it earlier, maybe at least 3 hours before bedtime to see if that helps. It might also be because you are on a dose that is too high, or because you made that big reduction and your body is trying to stabilize. Might be a combo of all of these. I'm sorry that you're having trouble with this but if you follow the plan used here, your odds of beginning to feel better soon and having an easier time completing your taper will increase significantly. I know it's tough but get through the next few days and I bet you both will begin to feel better. It is so important that you don't change your dose before you're ready. You've been taking 4mg/day so do not take more and do not attempt to reduce again. Not yet. Subs are very different than the things you have both been taking. With our short acting opiates, if we feel poorly we know we just have to take another pill and that will fix things. Subs are the exact opposite--the lower your dose gets, the better you're going to feel.

    It's hard to say if your husband's depression will get better or not. I hope so! For most folks it does but there are others who struggled with it throughout their entire taper. Sorry. Time will tell. Yes. Ginger tea may help with the nausea so try it. Remember too that both of you should be drinking as much water as you can possibly get down. Subs will tend to dehydrate you and that will kick up all kinds of nasty symptoms including nausea. You should be sipping on plain or vitamin fortified water all day long. Gatorade is another good choice because it will replenish your electrolytes.

    It helps to post here at least once a day and share how you're feeling. There are so many knowledgeable people here who might be able to give you advice on how to treat any symptoms you're having. In the meantime, be patient and stay at that 4mg/day dose for the next several days. Report in here and let us know how you're doing and you'll get help with knowing when it's time to reduce or tweak you dose.

    Peace,

    Cat

  9. #9
    Sickly72 is offline New Member
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    Thanks for all the advice..
    I will check back in, in a few days.. I would greatly appreciate that link to youtube video for helping split doses, as well..
    Thanks

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