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Suboxone from methadone help
  1. #1
    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Suboxone from methadone help

    OK im posting for my girlfriend,
    She has been an opiate user for 8 yrs on and off and is in a suboxone clinic right now.
    I have read the 2 month taper plan and i would take an actual person who has done this word over the paid Dr any day, but she seems to think Dr is right. All she talked of last night was 8mg strips and her Dr already mentioned 16MG so hes doing exactly what was said he would say, make a new customer.
    She seems to think she needs larger dose because she was on Methadone 60mg, well thats what she says she was at but i can say i watched her get sweats and nod out all day night long so may have been much higher.
    I have asked her 20 times to join this forum and read his 2 month taper post but she wont.

    Am i

  2. #2
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey shawnk. Welcome to the forum. Yes you are absolutely correct. No human being needs 16mg/day of subs. It has a ceiling effect around 8mg. Anything more is just wasting the sub. Sub doctor's most of the time do not know what they're doing. All they have to do is take an 8 hour class taught by big pharma and they can prescribe it widely at rediculous doses. I can't really add more right now, I'm at work and a little busy. But I will be back in a few hours.

    Have a great day.
    P.S. I've learned sooooooo much more about suboxone in the 6 months I've been on this site than I ever knew during the 5-6years I was on suboxone.

    Have a great day
    Beef

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Shes at 60mg day methadone, this is day 3 off methadone. She says she just read at Drs office needs to be tapered down to 30MG day before switching to suboxone, but she cant even go back to the clinic, 3 days missed and you get kicked out.

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Actually now she says shes at 125MG methadone.
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    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    Actually now she says shes at 125MG methadone.


    Hi Shawn -

    You can actually switch to Suboxone from any dose of Methadone, but the lower the better. We've had plenty of members switching from higher than 30mgs of Methadone. We had a couple members I can remember that switched from 150mgs of Methadone successfully. But you have to do it right the first time. Can't take the sub too soon or you'll be very sorry.

    You have to use the Cows (clinical opiate withdrawal scale) and get to an honest score of 26 or higher. That's the top priority. That means after stopping the Methadone completely it could easily take 3-5 days is pretty severe wd's before that score is reached. I made the switch from Methadone to Suboxone and got my mdone dose down to 10mgs and it took me nearly 90 hours before I hit the required 26 score. The good news is you only need to do it once of you do it right. Methadone has a long half life so it remains in your system a while.

    Here's the link to the Cows....https://www.drugabuse.gov/sites/defa...rawalScale.pdf

    It's good that you've read about our 2 month taper plan. It has produced thousands of success stories. Follow that closely and you'll be fine. Forget what the doctor says, they just don't know what they're talking about. As Beef said, just an 8 hour class and they start prescribing to unsuspecting patients. And they're instructed by big Pharma just as Beef also said to give huge doses which are never needed. The average person can be completely stable on 3-4mg of Suboxone. On occasion it could take a bit more for those coming from Methadone. The lower the dose of sub the better you'll feel. It works the opposite of other opiates.

    I hope she doesn't follow what the doctor suggest. We here have used Suboxone and know how it works. Let us help you and here do this right.

    Randy

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    Actually now she says shes at 125MG methadone.
    You know what? Having been kicked out of the clinic may be a blessing in disguise. It's very scary to be getting ready to switch from Methadone to subs. I think that she's got a road in front of her most especially because she's been on that much methadone but it's doable. She's going to have to wait some time before taking the first sub because of methadone's long half life.

    Your hands are kinda tied because she won't read here and she wants to follow what her sub doctor is telling her. It sounds like she has lots of bad habits and wants to take what she considers the easiest route. Taking high doses of sub will not be the easiest route, however.

    Please find Robert's Taper Plan and the COWS sheet and print them both out for her. Ask her to read it and then read it again. Perhaps when she's in the thick of things waiting to take her first sub, she'll reconsider and reach out to us. I hope so!

    Good luck and keep posting to let us know how she's doing and to ask questions as they arise.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    They gave her a script for Subutex 4MG once or twice day for 1 week then come back for Suboxone.
    Does that sound right?
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  8. #8
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    They gave her a script for Subutex 4MG once or twice day for 1 week then come back for Suboxone.
    Does that sound right?
    Yes that sounds about right. Please ask her to follow the induction method used here. It instructs to begin with small doses once every hour until you're stable (little to no withdrawal). I bet she won't need the full 8mg per day. It's so powerful. I promise that if she thinks she needs more than that, it's the mental game. She may only need 4mg or anything in-between so that's why it's important to start slowly adding small pieces to get stable at the lowest possible dose.

    Be sure she waits until she's good and sick. The only method that will insure she's ready to induct is by using the COWS. Score each symptom honestly and conservatively. We keep harping about this because it's SO important. Precipitated withdrawals are horrendous and there's not a darn thing you can do about them except to wait it out. Adding more sub or other opiate WILL NOT help but instead will make it worse.

    Good luck and keep posting. As Randy said, it's going to take several days or even a week before she can safely begin the subs. There just isn't any other way to get this done but once she's ready, it'll only take a couple of hours to get relief and not too much longer to become symptom free.

    Peace,

    Cat
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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    So shes 3 days from methadone clinic but did take a 60mg morphine yesterday, half in the AM half at around 11PM, and just had me go pick up the Sub so i know she will be taking it tonight. Its too soon isnt it. I dont think shes feeling withdraw as much as just not high for 1st time in a year. I mean at 125MG methadone and she weighs 155lbs was she not high every day.

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    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    So shes 3 days from methadone clinic but did take a 60mg morphine yesterday, half in the AM half at around 11PM, and just had me go pick up the Sub so i know she will be taking it tonight. Its too soon isnt it. I dont think shes feeling withdraw as much as just not high for 1st time in a year. I mean at 125MG methadone and she weighs 155lbs was she not high every day.

    While you're waiting to induct on the subs you do not want to take any kind of "comfort meds" or supplements that will make you feel better. That's the wrong thing to be doing. The purpose is to be SICK in wd's so you can induct as soon as possible. Taking the Morphine will make her feel better but will only delay he progress of being ready to induct and make her suffer longer than necessary. So no more Morphine or anything else for that matter.

    Make ABSOLUTELY certain you use the Cows before taking any sub. That's imperative for a safe induction to avoid precipitated wd's. I provided the link earlier for the Cows. Score her yourself and be honest and accurate when scoring symptoms. Need to get to a score of 26 or higher before inducting.

    Once she is ready to induct you should begin with a 1mg dose of sub and wait one full hour to give it plenty of time to work. The next dose should be .5mg (1/2 of 1mg) and again waiting an hour. After that the doses should be .5mg, then the rest should all be .25mg (1/4 of 1mg) until she's stable with little or no wd's. That will get her on the lowest effective dose which is the goal.

    Read over Robert's plan again....https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone...tml#post436333 so you understand it completely.

    Randy

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    You guys are so good with the help support you provide on your own time.

    She is waiting, she says she feels bad but i dont think she will be ready for couple days yet. I keep trying to stress the importance of being in flu like symptoms is when to start. The longer one can hold out the better before induction im guessing?
    She is taking Gabapantin because she does have a leg that gives her pain on and off. But the good news she is holding off after i went got the script. I should ask her to give them to me as that's what she should want is give them to me and don't give them back before im ready no matter what. But it needs be her choice.

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    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Yes the longer you hold out the better it will be and the less chance of P/W she will have. That COWS sheet is gold. You gotta get to a 26 to ensure a safe induction. Like Cat said be honest and conservative with the scoring. Any comfort meds she is taking will only prolong the process. She needs to be good and sick before. P/W are nothing to joke about. They are horrible. And like Randy said, there is nothing that you can do but wait them out.

    Keep us posted and let us know how it's going.
    Beef

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    I helped her score and we are around 18 so will test again in the morning.
    Is Zoloft something that would interfere in all this. She stopped taking it 2 days ago, but wants to take it tonight because shes crying alot.

  14. #14
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    18 is a good start. Keep us posted. I'm not sure about the zoloft. I do know that if you stop taking them abruptly they can cause w/d on their own. I'm sure Randy or Cat would have more knowledge about that. Do you have the doses ready to go for when she hits that magic # Of 26? It's better to have them ready to go and separated so she can get the exact dose she needs and you'll know what her initial dose is when she is stable.

    Keep us posted
    Beef

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Another question, she was given 8MG Subutex pills, and advised to drop 2 a day.
    How can these be cut into 0.5MG?

    Its funny Doc said exactly what the post said 16 to 32 day one.
    Doc did also say to start that 2 days ago and that 2 8MG may not be enough for you i dont know.
    That what you like to hear from a Doc you just paid $185 to see for 5 mins, start eating these, i dont know.
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  16. #16
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Ok. So you have 8mg pills. What I would do is get a razor blade or a pill cutter and cut the pill in half. Then take one of the halfs and crush it with the back of a spoon. Then you'll have a 4mg pile of subutex. Divide that into 4 equal piles of 1mg each. Then if you half one of the piles it will .5mg. Half the other one and it will be two piles of .25mg. Then you can scoop up those piles with a credit card or razor blade, put them in aluminum foil and fold them over and mark them with a sharpie so you know which is which. Those small piles can get tough to eyeball. Then follow the induction process taking .5mg to start and continuing with .25mg doses about an hour apart so the sub has time to work. Sub is really strong and we want her to be stable on the lowest possible dose. Where is she on the COWS scale?? This will be over soon and she will be feeling better. She only has to do this once.

    Keep posting!!
    Beef

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    We are at 23 and i can not measure pulse rate.

  18. #18
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Index and middle finger just below the her thumb. As soon as your phone Changes minutes start counting till it moves to the next minute. If you can't find that one, you could always use the artery in her neck.
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  19. #19
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefaroni7272 View Post
    Index and middle finger just below the her thumb. As soon as your phone Changes minutes start counting till it moves to the next minute. If you can't find that one, you could always use the artery in her neck.
    I can never get my pulse from my wrist either so I use the main artery in my neck too. It's strong enough there that it's hard to miss. How she doing? Has she inducted yet? Be sure to be conservative on the scoring and be aware that while some symptoms might get better temporarily, others may be worse. As far as the Zoloft goes, that's something that she shouldn't be missing so she should take it as prescribed. Don't take any comfort meds though.

    I'm hoping that she reaches her 26 score today if it hasn't happened already. I'll look for your update a bit later. Good luck!

    Peace,

    Cat
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  20. #20
    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    She quite worried about being on a 125MG Methadone dose to nothing and whats going to happen when taking Subutex.
    Last methadone dose was Monday, but she did take a 60MG morphine in halves Wednesday. Seems to be taking a while to get to 26 on COWS.

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Well its gone into a weirdness of she has very little withdraw right now. She is taking Gabapantin. She seems as normal as ive seen her in a year. Is it possible the Gaba and Lexapro are working on her withdraws? She said she took 2 600MG Gabapantin. The Gaba is prescribed to her for a leg issue she has had since birth. I have read it can get you a mellow high. So maybe that is masking right now.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-25-2018 at 03:27 PM.
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  22. #22
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    Well its gone into a weirdness of she has very little withdraw right now. She is taking Gabapantin. She seems as normal as ive seen her in a year. Is it possible the Gaba and Lexapro are working on her withdraws? She said she took 2 600MG Gabapantin. The Gaba is prescribed to her for a leg issue she has had since birth. I have read it can get you a mellow high. So maybe that is masking right now.
    Ah. No doubt about it. The Gaba is delaying the full onslaught on symptoms. Is she prescribed 1200 Gaba at a time? If she is, then I'm off base but something is whispering to me that she shouldn't be taking that much Gaba at a time. That's a monster dose....even 600mg at a time is huge. This is addict behavior, plain and simple. We just aren't happy unless we're throwing back something.....anything!

    I am absolutely sure she's nervous about not having the methadone. If she's moderately comfortable right now, then just let it be because the longer she can wait to begin the subs the better. However, her last dose was 5 days ago (?) so she just might be getting close to being able to introduce the subs. She has got to stop taking any comfort meds! The half life of Gaba is 5-7 hours so it'll be in her system for around 40 hours.

    I sure wish she'd come and read and post on this Forum herself. One of the benefits of using subs is that it's a slow taper and that will allow her to change her behaviors. She's going to have to become accustomed to not taking things just because. I'm not being critical, believe me! The physical addiction is only half the problem. The other half is all the behaviors that have become such a huge part of our life. Provided she inducts the subs properly and lands at the lowest effective dose, she shouldn't experience any buzz. What that means to most of us addicts is that something is wrong and we must need more of it. That is NOT the goal. The goal is to minimize or avoid detox symptoms. This takes some getting used to but it's imperative that we do so that we can learn to live without feeling or chasing the high. Does this make sense?

    If you told us why she is switching from methadone to subs, I don't remember. Can you please tell me her reasons? Making this switch is a step toward sobriety and this journey doesn't come without pitfalls. We have to want this more than anything so that we can get through the tough times knowing that we will soon be clean and this life style will be behind us. I guess I'd like to know why she's doing this in the first place, Her motivation is going to make a world of difference.

    Please tell her to put down the Gaba! In fact, if you're able get a hold of that bottle and put it somewhere safe, do it. She's just prolonging the process.

    Peace,

    Cat
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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Shes reading these replies.
    I don't know why she wont post herself.
    Well shes going to subs for sobriety, we have a 2 month old and needs to be here for that. I hope that is why she has taken these steps.
    She has a 7yr old Daughter who wants to live here with us also. She has many reasons to do this.
    But she is reading replies and taking advise here not what Doctor take 2 8MG per day you may need more I dont know said?
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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    Shes reading these replies.
    I don't know why she wont post herself.
    Well shes going to subs for sobriety, we have a 2 month old and needs to be here for that. I hope that is why she has taken these steps.
    She has a 7yr old Daughter who wants to live here with us also. She has many reasons to do this.
    But she is reading replies and taking advise here not what Doctor take 2 8MG per day you may need more I dont know said?
    Sounds like she's got the right motivation. I hope that I didn't insult you with my asking that in the first place. I certainly didn't mean to. Best thing is that she's willing to listen to the advice she gets here. 16mg/day is ridiculous never mind perhaps more. If she follows the advice given here and stays strictly to plan, she's going to do great. Next important step is to be sure to induct very slowly so that she lands at the lowest possible effective dose. Waiting until she's ready and inducting correctly is truly the hardest part of the entire plan.

    How's she feeling? Have you scored here again?

    Peace,

    Cat

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    This is Scarlett I took my last does Tuesday I was on 120 mg of methadone today is day 6 can I start subutex yet?Also does anybody know why I have not been in such a bad withdrawal would it be because of the gabapantine I'm taking 2 600 mg sometime three in a day and I take zoloft. I have hot and cold sweats have not sleep in days at least three days also I did have xanax took last half like wens or so can't really rem but my first few day coming off I did have a few morph. also. I got sick few time here and there and bathroom as most of us do.PLEASE HELP WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING...........OH I want to hit >>>> at times really bad been crying off and on not so much the past two days it really has not been to bad with that thank god cause we have a 2 month old and I'm really trying not to hurt anything or anyone
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-26-2018 at 10:05 AM.

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    edit

    This is Scarlett I took my last does Tuesday I was on 120 mg of methadone today is day 6 can I start subutex yet?Also does anybody know why I have not been in such a bad withdrawal would it be because of the gabapantine I'm taking 2 600 mg sometime three in a day and I take zoloft. I have hot and cold sweats have not sleep in days at least three days also I did have xanax took last half like wens or so can't really rem but my first few day coming off I did have a few morph. also. I got sick few time here and there and bathroom as most of us do.PLEASE HELP WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING...........OH I want to hit >>>> at times really bad been crying off and on not so much the past two days it really has not been to bad with that thank god cause we have a 2 month old and and him two I feel bad he has two do so much right now and i've done >>>> for a whole year but basic. get high not fair to him at all hes a great guy and dad. I'm really trying not to hurt anything or anyone when I get like that by what I say or just in anyway you know what I mean.

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    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey Scarlett. Welcome!! I know this feels like it's never-ending, and for that I'm sorry. There's a couple of things that could be delaying the process for you. First off you were on a high dose of mdone at 120mg. It has a very long half life and depending how long you were on it could play into effect. Everyone's journey is different and metabolizes at a different rate. Next is that gabapentin. Cat spoke about it in an earlier post. It does a good job at masking the w/d symptoms and if you were taking 1800mg it would definitely do that. Next you said you took some Xanax. How much and for how long were you taking it?? It also helps with the symptoms but it's also highly addictive. No judgements whatsoever here by the way. But you need to make sure you hit 26 on the COWS to be sure you won't go into p/w.

    I know you want to feel better, and you will once you induct on the subs. But we need to make sure it's safe. P/W are no joke and there is absolutely nothing you can do to fix them. You just gotta wait it out. You gotta get good and sick first. But if we do this right we only have to do it once.

    Let us know where you're at.
    Welcome again and keep your head up, it will get better!!
    Beef

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    yes gaba 600 mg twice a day but I usually start getting worse when the gaba start wearing off my nose start running really bad can't stop bathroom and my legs start hurting worse with the gaba I scored a 17 to 22 on the COWS
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  29. #29
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnk49 View Post
    yes gaba 600 mg twice a day but I usually start getting worse when the gaba start wearing off my nose start running really bad can't stop bathroom and my legs start hurting worse with the gaba I scored a 17 to 22 on the COWS
    Hi Scarlet!!

    I'm sure glad that you decided to come on and post yourself. I, just like Beef am terribly sorry that you are suffering right now. Here's what you need to do beginning immediately. STOP taking anything and I mean everything except for your Zoloft. If you do that, I'm guessing that your score on the COWS sheet is going to get higher within the next 24 hours. I know that you are going to feel worse but that's the goal right now. Once you get some of the Gaba and the benzo out of your system you'll begin to feel exactly now far into withdrawal you are. Can you please try and do that?

    You're going to feel worse for a while but the good news is that once you reach that 26 relief will be just around the corner. You'll get at least some relief with your first dose just be sure it's a small one. I believe that Randy suggested you begin with 2mg. After an hour If that's not enough to get you stable (little to no withdrawal) then you can begin to add .5 (1/2mg) of the sub and another .5 (1/2mg) another hour after that. If you're still not completely stable, begin to add .25 (1/4mg) once an hour until you are stable. I know this sounds like a lot of trouble but sub is a weird drug and if you take too much you won't feel as well as you will if you take "just enough". The only way to know what "just enough" is going to be is to add it slowly like I described above. My fingers are crossed that you wont need more than 4mg but it's possible you will.. Don't let your head get into the way and instead be patient and really think about how you feel. I know that you're on board with ignoring the sub doctor's instructions on taking 16mg/day. That amount is insane! Take it slow and you'll know how much you really need.

    You're doing great by the way. Waiting for the switch from methadone to subs isn't for the weak-kneed so you've already shown commitment and your strong desire to get this show on the road. Good girl.

    Congrats on the new baby and give that man of your's a big hug. He deserves it.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    shawnk49 is offline Junior Member
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    Okay love thank you and I will

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