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Govt. Drops Corrupt Mental Illness Program
  1. #31
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    Oh, bn, I am still desperately seeking some information to help with my chronic pain, without adding more drugs. I already take 4 a day for it, Neurontin, Cymbalta, Oxycontin, and Oxycodone.

    I have a severe, chronic spinal condition. I have scoliosis, my spine is shaped like a backwards S, with a large gap in the verterbrae where the curve changes direction, so my discs are crammed closer together than normal, and herniate at will. I have sciatic nerve impingement, and a degenerative discs disease in the lower lumbar area. Of course, the whole condition is degenerative, and surgery is not a viable, nor practical option.

    I, or course, can not exercise much, lift weights, jog, or etc. Walking short distances, a lot of times with a cane, is my limit. However, I would love some other solutions to help, so if you can find anything, please let me know. Thanks!



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  2. #32
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    I know of this product.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-21-2016 at 08:54 PM.

  3. #33
    bn7
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    Position Statement on Mental Health Screening:
    TeenScreen, a Marketing Strategy

    November 1, 2005

    The ALLIANCE FOR HUMAN RESEARCH PROTECTION (AHRP) opposes government policies requiring or promoting mental health screening of America's infants, toddlers and school children. Our opposition is informed by scientific, legal, ethical, and common sense considerations.

    1) The primary catalyst for both TeenScreen and for the prescribing guidelines, known as TMAP is market expansion.

    Both TeenScreen and TMAP (the Texas Medication Algorithm Project) were recommended by the President's New Freedom Commission for Mental Health (NFC) Report.

    To appreciate the financial stakes involved in the psychotropic drug business, one must only look at the staggering rate of return on investment. Companies that subsidized TMAP increased their rate of return hugely - not only in Texas, but nationwide.

    Drug Company Expenditures on the Texas Medication Algorithm Project Income from Texas Medicaid Expenditures for Psychiatric Drugs
    Pfizer $232 thousand $ 233 MILLION
    Janssen-J &J $224 thousand $ 272 MILLION
    Eli Lilly $109 thousand $ 328 MILLION

    CBS-affiliate, KEYE News Investigation [2]

    Dr. Peter J Weiden, who was a member of the TMAP expert consensus panel, has charged that the guidelines are based on "opinions, not data" and that "bias due to funding sources undermines the credibility of the guidelines since most of the guideline's authors have received support from the pharmaceutical industry." [3]

    The invalid screening process of TeenScreen ensures that mostly healthy normal children will be brought into the government subsidized mental health dragnet. Once children acquire a psychiatric label, they are branded for life. For example, between 55% and 60% of foster children in at least three states--Texas [4], Massachusetts [5], and Florida [6]--are on psychotropic drugs, starting as young as age three. Some children are on multiple "drug cocktails," as many as 16 drugs.

    The treatments and interventions for psychiatric labels resulting from mental health screening are almost exclusively pharmacological in nature.

    The drugs recommended by TMAP are both dangerous and ineffective - they all carry Black Box warning labels.

    2) The diagnostic criteria upon which mental health screening instruments rest are scientifically invalid, vague, and entirely open to subjective interpretation.

    · Indeed, in 1999, the US Surgeon General [7] acknowledged: "what it means to be mentally healthy is subject to many different interpretations that are rooted in value judgments that may vary across cultures." The clinician's guide to diagnosing mental disorders, the DSM IV, acknowledges: "The DSM-IV [8] criteria remain a consensus without clear empirical data...the behavioral characteristics specified in DSM-IV, despite efforts to standardize them, remain subjective . . . " p.1163

    1. TeenScreen was tested on 1,729 children in 7 New York City schools using "parental passive consent and teen active consent" [9] which is legally invalid.
    2. TeenScreen is fraught with suggestive insinuations of failure and self-doubt. Such questions can lead vulnerable teenagers to obsess about perceived inadequacies that might lead them to develop low self-esteem that could give rise to anxiety, withdrawal, and emotional problems. By raising the possibility that suicide may be an option, screening might lead to suicidal thinking - as happens in Japan's Internet suicide clubs. [10]
    3. TeenScreen questions are so vague, suggestive, and broad that mostly normal teens are mislabeled as "mentally ill:"

    "In the last year ... Has there been a time when you felt you couldn't do anything well or that you weren't as good-looking or as smart as other people?"

    "In the last year...Has there been a time when you couldn't think as clearly or as fast as usual?"

    "Have you often felt very nervous when you've had to do things in front of people?"

    ·TeenScreen (a.k.a. Columbia SuicideScreen, CSS) is an illegitimate intrusion on privacy which purports to be a suicide prevention assessment tool but lacks any semblance of scientific validity. Indeed, the results of a study by Dr. David Shaffer, Chairman of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Columbia University, who is credited with developing and promoting TeenScreen, show that of 1,729 New York City high school students who were screened using the TeenScreen questionnaire, 475 students tested positive.

    · He acknowledges that "Two hundred and three (77 percent) of the 262 teens who screened positive at follow up had no evidence of depression or suicidality at follow-up." 9

    1. Further analysis by Dr. Shaffer [11], et al (in 2004) found that when students were retested, the positive predictive value of TeenScreen was only 16%. The authors acknowledge that their screening tool "would result in 84 non-suicidal teens being referred for evaluation for every 16 suicidal youths correctly identified." [p. 77]
    2. Any screening instrument with that high a rate of false positives would be invalidated as useless. Indeed, Dr. Shaffer and colleagues acknowledge: "in practice a specificity of 0.83 would deliver many who were not at risk for suicide, and that could reduce the acceptability of a school-based prevention program." p. 77
    3. Mental health screening is gambling with children's normal development--TeenScreen promoters fail to disclose that the risk for children who are screened to be falsely labeled as "suicidal" or "mentally ill" is 84%.

    A child who is mislabeled as "mentally ill" is likely to be harmed emotionally, psychologically and neurologically - especially if prescribed powerful psychoactive drugs.

    "Childhood and adolescence being developmental phases, it is difficult to draw clear boundaries between phenomena that are part of normal development and others that are abnormal." [World Health Organization]

    By pathologizing children's normal developmental changes and emotional expression, nonconforming (often gifted) children are mislabeled as mentally ill. That label stigmatizes them and sets limits on their choices and, therefore, their mental well-being. Promoters of mental health screening fail to acknowledge that children who test "positive" at high risk of being prescribed pharmacological treatments that are not approved for children; that have been shown to be mostly ineffective in industry's own studies; that even during short-term tests have triggered severe, sometimes fatal side effects. Indeed, most of the psychotropic drugs prescribed for children carry Black Box warnings - FDA's strongest safety alert.

    * The assumption that early biochemical intervention improves children's future mental health is unsubstantiated. These interventions are controversial and have not been proven safe or beneficial.

    o "However, safety considerations seem to suggest that, when possible, nonpharmacologic interventions should be considered before young children are given medications of unproven efficacy and safety." [12]

    * Most of the prescribed psychotropic drugs were not approved for use in children.
    * When tested in children in controlled trials, the drugs were found not to work:

    "More than two-thirds of studies of antidepressants given to depressed children, for instance, found the medications were no better than sugar pills, but companies published only the positive trials."

    * Children prescribed these drugs may suffer serious neurological harm; some may become manic, aggressive and suicidal.
    * The short-term use of these drugs in children resulted in severe, sometimes fatal side effects.
    * All antidepressants now carry Black Box warnings about an increased risk of suicidal behavior, including Strattera, a recycled antidepressant prescribed for ADHD.
    * In July, 2005, the FDA issued an additional advisory to healthcare professionals stating:

    "FDA has concluded that suicidal thinking or behavior may increase in pediatric patients treated with any type of antidepressant, especially early in treatment.

    Increases in suicidal thinking or behavior due to drug can be expected in about 1 out of 50 treated pediatric patients." [13]

    * There are no drug safety studies on long-term consequences for children's development.
    * The Oregon Drug effectiveness Study that reviewed 2,287 studies on ADHD drugs found [14] "No evidence on long-term safety of drugs used to treat ADHD in young children" or adolescents.
    * "A landmark government-financed study [CATIE] that compared drugs used to treat schizophrenia has confirmed what many psychiatrists long suspected: newer drugs that are highly promoted and widely prescribed offer few - if any - benefits over older medicines that sell for a fraction of the cost." [15]

    4) Despite its proven unreliability as a predictive tool, and no evidence that mental screening prevents suicide [16], TeenScreen promotes itself in direct to consumer marketing advertisements - as a suicide prevention tool, proving that science is no deterrent for a marketing strategy.

    * The TeenScreen website states: "We are running public service advertisements in The New York Times and The Washington Post to raise awareness of our new report entitled "Catch Them Before They Fall."
    * "Catch Them Before They Fall" is a marketing pitch much like pharmaceutical company advertisements that refer to unsubstantiated "chemical imbalances."

    TeenScreen promoters are misinforming public health policy makers, school officials, families and teens by mischaracterizing their experimental, scientifically invalid questionnaire as a proven suicide prevention strategy, when their own research refutes such claims. TeenScreen's low predictive level - shown to be only 16% - will result in falsely labeling 84% of children who test positive as mentally ill or suicidal.11 As acknowledged by Dr. Shaffer, such a high rate of false positives "could reduce the acceptability of a school-based prevention program." TeenScreen seemingly driven by marketing considerations continues to make unfounded claims that belie the evidence. As a result, healthy children are increasingly prescribed psychotropic drugs that have been shown to be harmful.

    AHRP is dismayed that the government is wasting tens of millions of taxpayers' dollars for scientifically invalid mental health screening programs that are more likely to harm than help children. Most recently the federal Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) awarded $9.7 million [17] to support 37 "suicide prevention" screening programs.

    * TeenScreen suggests ways of circumventing a federal law mandating parental consent (Protection of Pupil Rights Amendment (PPRA), a child's only protection from these invasive unproven initiatives:

    "If the screening will be given to all students, as opposed to some, it becomes part of the curriculum and no longer requires active parental consent (i.e., if all ninth graders will be screened as a matter of policy), it is considered part of the curriculum." [18]

    * TeenScreen pitches its product to under age minors who are legally and developmentally incapable of making experimental health care decisions whose consequences they cannot fathom.

    5) Coercive mental health screening and forced drugging is already happening to children in the United States. Current estimates "Each year, eight million American children, or about 10% of the school-age population, are prescribed mind altering drugs.

    * Aliah Gleason is an example of the tragic consequences of being falsely labeled by TeenScreen. After screening "positive" in a Texas school mental health screening, without parental consent, Aliah was committed to a state mental hospital, denied family contact for five months, physically restrained over 26 times, and forcibly drugged with twelve psychiatric medications. [19]
    * Mathew Smith and Shaina Dunkle died due to cardiac toxicity of psychotropic drugs that their parents were forced to put them on by their schools.
    * In New York, Patricia Weathers [20] and the Carroll [21] family were threatened or charged with child abuse for wanting to take their sons off of stimulant medications following adverse reactions.
    * Paul Johnson started kindergarten as a normal 5 year old, but his teacher decided that he had ADHD. Paul's parents were threatened with child abuse charges and so over the next 7 years he was medicated with seven different psychiatric medications and endured institutionalization for drug-induced psychosis. [22]

    6) Finally, a radical proposal contained in the Federal Mental Health Action Agenda (FMHAA) - a follow-up to the NFC, is alarming as it is preposterous. The FMHAA stated goal is: to "develop mental health promotion and early intervention services targeted to infants, toddlers, preschool, and school-aged children." [23]

    * The Action Agenda targeting infants, toddlers, and children is invalid and irresponsible - as it disregards the risks and lack of evidence to support such "early intervention."
    * In 2001, Dr. Benedetto Vitiello [24], director of Child and Adolescent Treatment and Preventive Interventions Research Branch for the National Institutes of Mental Health, acknowledged "the diagnostic uncertainty surrounding most manifestations of psychopathology in early childhood."
    * Whereas Dr. Vitiello acknowledged "multiple concerns" about "a sizable increase in the use of psychotropic medications such as stimulants, antidepressants, and clonidine in children, including preschoolers aged 2 to 5 years. [ ] None of the medications identified in the surveys has received regulatory approval for children <6 years of age or been adequately tested for efficacy or safety in this age group."
    * The following statement by Dr. David Willis, Medical Director of the Northwest Early Childhood Institute in Portland, Oregon, a key opinion leader with influence on government policies affecting children's mental health, is a shocking prescription for disaster given the lack of reliable diagnostic instruments, the high rate of error ensuring healthy children would be mislabeled, and the drugs' severe adverse effects:

    "Psychopharmacology is on the horizon as preventive therapy for children with genetic susceptibility to mental health problems." [25] (Emphasis added).

    * Mental health screening and early psychopharmacological interventions, particularly for infants and young children, has no more scientific validity or ethical legitimacy than did the mass screening for Ã…Â’mental defectives' during the heyday of the U.S. eugenics movement. Those ill-advised screening policies led to the sterilization of 72,600 Americans, among them children as young as 10. [26]

    AHRP opposes psychiatric screening of children without active, informed, parental consent. Consent of parents must be documented and given voluntarily without a hint of coercion. TeenScreen has attempted to side-step parental consent by claiming "passive parental consent" - which is invalid.

    * TeenScreen is being sued in federal court by the parents of 15-year old Chelsea Rhoades, for violating their constitutional rights by failing to inform them that their child will be screened, and for failing to obtain parental consent. The Rhoades family is represented by the Rutherford Institute. [27]

    The FDA bears responsibility for failing to stop an unethical drug marketing strategy that is increasing the risk of serious harm for healthy children who are being misprescribed psychoactive drugs on the basis of an invalid screening tool that was being promoted with false claims. According to its website, as of October 25, 2005, TeenScreen is actively operating at 460 locations in 42 states and Washington DC. [28]

  4. #34
    bn7
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    Dangers of Psychiatric Drugs (World Talk Radio Show about Teen Screening)
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-21-2016 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #35
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    Thank you for the link, I will, however, consult with a spinal specialist before I invest in something like that, I am very afraid of doing more damage.

    You know, does everyone have to keep drugging their kids? This is just getting ridiculous. Common sense says that during the most formative years, we should not be adding chemicals, and screwing with stuff in the human body, unless we want to cause unwanted, and unwarranted changes.



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  6. #36
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    I'd definitely check if that back contraption suits your back ailment. If it gets the OK, it would sensible to see if you can get one made locally. Fixing it to a wall (if you own your house) would probably half the material costs.

    Psychiatry is nuts. They are drugging people with toxic chemicals with no idea of what they are doing. It's all about brain damaging therapeutics; a throw back to the 1940-50's when the hammered ice picks up people’s noses to lobotomise the patient.

    Surely there is a better way. There is, but it just costs too much and takes to long. But giving distressed people brain damage to take out their brains higher functioning is a disgrace.

  7. #37
    Miles is offline Member
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    Hello bn7 and zippysgoddess:

    I have been away for a while fighting for liberty and personal responsibility (it is election time in the USA)! I have enjoyed your recent posts! I shall have something to add soon.

    Stay strong!

    Miles

  8. #38
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    Well we rent this place, but if it helped me, my landlord would not care if we fixed something to the wall, he is very nice, and understanding. I even have a neighbor who can make it for me, if my doc approves, I would just have to buy the supplies, which they carry down at the new Tractor Supply in town.

    Yes, these kinds of drugs do so much damage during the formative years, I can't believe they approve any of them for use in children, however, from the US government, we can't really be surprised by that.

    Hey Miles, welcome back!



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  9. #39
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    I saw scoliosis was briefly mentioned on that Back Aid site. I've had a few back injuries over my life; I crushed my 3-bottom vertebrae together doing something stupid. I've ripped the muscle holing my hip to my pelvis in half and I've been in a neck brace for six months after a surfing accident.

    The only part of my back that gives me grief is those 3 bottom vertebrae. When they slip out its agony. My solution is to put a thick belt on and put a can of tinned food (standard size soup tin) at the base of my spine, and tighten the belt as much as possible. Then I go for a walk. The pressure of the tin + a gentle walk pushes my everything back into position and relieves the pain.

    When I ripped my hip/pelvis in half I ended up seeing this bloke that was recommended. He soon fixed that problem, the next visit he was checking me out further. He felt my neck (surfing injury) and said "WTF", looked at me straight in the eyes and said "have you ever suffered from mental illness" so I told him my rave. He had this little gun that fired a ball bearing that manipulated bones. He put my neck back in and it felt like air was coming out of my ears. The pressure that had built up for years (from the surfing accident) just went.

    I ended up in the nut house about the same time the neck brace was removed. I used to complain to the shrinks about how I lost my ability to think clearly and this brain fog and confusion. They labeled it Schizophrenia and drugged the **** out of me.

    That Back Doctor fixed it with one click of his ball bearing gun.

    ****ing psychiatrists!

    This wasn’t the big miracle cure, I’m still labeled SZ, that label is on my record and will follow me everywhere. The SZ label will effect your life in so many ways, from trying to gain entrance to University to employment, insurance, licensee’s et cetera. Also I’ve still got to live on this planet surrounded by idiots, that will always keep me fairly mad, but that Back Doc made a huge difference.

    Hi Miles,
    Glad your back!

  10. #40
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    Wow bn, no wonder you rant about the meds and docs so much, you have been through many, many bad experiences with them. I don't blame you at all for the way you feel.

    I am glad that doc was finally able to fix it for you though. Yes, when your neck gets totally out of whack like that, it will cause mental/brain issues because it pinches the small nerves in your neck placing pressure in those areas. My discs pop out in my neck, and I get awful migraines, and I can be so nasty it is incredible.

    It is a real shame that they labeled you without further tests, if you had the money, you could fight that being on your record in court, I suppose, but it would be very, very expensive.

    The reason I have to be careful is that I don't have the traditional scoliosis that most adults are treated for, mine is very severe because it wasn't treated properly when I was a child.



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  11. #41
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    Having a label slapped on you by a quack profession (psychiatry) that will effect you for the rest of your life happens all the time.

    If you go above by 6 posts, there is a great example on that worldradiotalk link (its about a 1 hour long show). Under Bush's New Freedom Commission Policy teenagers do a 10 minute test on a computer (no docs involved) the results of this test can see that teen labeled for life and drugged for life. A BLOODY 10 MINUTE TEST.

    I am a bit of a activist so I don't just obsess on psychiatry. There's welfare, housing and the environment + the rest to keep me ranting.

    I see bio-psychiatry standing in the way of very important social change humanity is screaming out for. The power has turned our lives to a living hell, and dissent being is labeled as chemical imbalances of the brain. Apparently we can look forward to 50% of the USA having a mental illness diagnosis by 2020. That ought to keep things under control.

    I'd love to tell you the story about my records but I cant, it's very complicated, very legal and I'm traceable. But I gave my govt the equivalent of a wedgey a few years’ back and I've been gagged. LOL

  12. #42
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    Oh, I know it happens, as well as the stigma that does along with it, when someone does have a real mental illness of some kind. It made me so mad after my DH was in the hospital, that I actually wrote, and had published, an article on stopping the stigma.

    Good heavens that is crazy, a 10 minutes computer test, that can screw up the rest of their lives. And well all know how seriously teens take that kind of stuff when you put it in front of them, they may just be pushing buttons, or goofing off.

    We have been homeless twice, so I am big on housing, and welfare. I am also huge on disabilities, and the ADA. I also speak out against people who fraud the system, because they are cheating others out of benefits who may legitimately need them. My own sister did it, and when she got caught, she got no sympathy from me.

    LOL! Sounds like you taught the government a lesson that they didn't like learning.



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  13. #43
    bn7
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    quote:Originally posted by zippysgoddess

    Oh, I know it happens, as well as the stigma that does along with it, when someone does have a real mental illness of some kind.
    Can I please have clarification on what a real mental illness is?

    In one of the organisations I belonged to we demanded a full wage for the unemployed. If the capitalist system cannot provide full employment, why should the unemployed be disadvantaged? This is something I still believe in. Why should 5% of the population own 95% of the wealth? We should just take what’s ours back off he lazy fat slob bourgeois swine’s?

    I have read that Americans have no understanding of left wing politics! LOL


  14. #44
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    The reason I was referring to it that way was to try and distinguish between those people who really have a genuine problem, and those, such as those children who take a 10 minute computer test, and just get lumped in but don't deserve it. There is a stigma with all of it, of course, I was just trying to point out how bad this world can be for those who really need help of some kind to deal with a problem, but then people treat them like dirt because of it.

    When my DH got out of the hospital, some people shied away from him, because they didn't know how to treat him, after all you must be "crazy" to end up in the "booby hatch." I was like, how about everyone just treat him the way you did before? He is still himself.

    Then there are those who fake a mental illness to get special treatment, or try to get away with some crime or other, and I think they deserve it if they get stuck with a stigma.

    LOL! Actually my husband is majoring in Political Science, and he is very into left wing politics, so I am very familiar.



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  15. #45
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    bn7:

    Good day! Trust you are doing well.

    When you have time, read the inanity being posted at "Need to Talk" - "Please Help--It's Killing Me Inside." I would love to have you join the fray!

    Regards,
    Miles

  16. #46
    bn7
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    Zippysgoddess,

    I'm nit picking here a bit and I know we all use jargon when we communicate. However, I agree with your terminology when you describe distress, misery pain and so forth as a "genuine problem". But then you use (and I have used the term many times too) the term mental illness.

    I will never except that thought’s feelings and behavior are the result of a broken brain (disease). People should be free to experience and interact in life anyway they wish without eugenics quack ‘s labeling thoughts, feelings and behavior they deem undesirable as a disease of the brain. Then following this by doing their best to destroy that person’s brain. I just wonder what you think?

    For example: If someone wishes to berate a teapot on the footpath, they should be free to do so.

    PS: Be careful about replying with anything that resembles person’s that are a danger to themselves or others requires an intervention. I have a hard disk full of facts proving a person labeled mad is less likely to harm others or them selves unless they are on psych medication and suffering akathisia. I know you wouldn't do that

  17. #47
    zippysgoddess is offline Platinum Member
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    I wish I had known you about a year ago BN, I could have used all that information when my DH was doing research for a Psych class. It would have made for a great project, and paper.

    I will accept your nitpicking, and not get defensive, as I see your point, and agree with it, just as you saw mine, and knew what I was talking about, and that I meant no harm by it.

    Yes, I agree with you, there are things we should not interfere with, just because someone talks to themselves, or to their teapot (LOL) doesn't mean something is necessarily wrong. It is true that some people just enjoy being that way, and docs should not be trying to fix what isn't broken.

    When I think of a real problem, I think of when my DH had an actual suicide plan, and needed intervention. Still, even then, there was a limit to the therapy either one of us would allow, he used some meds, and talk therapy. Neither one of us would go for the really dangerous, and mind altering zombie drugs, or ECT. He is also proof the coping strategies, and just talking in therapy helped more than meds, as he was able to drop almost all of the meds, copes better with his emotions without them. I believe he really needed someone to do something to help, as he could no longer function, not even to berate a wall! So it was more his inability to function than being a danger to himself or anyone else.

    If someone thinks differently and is outside of what the docs consider the "norm" they think they need "fixed." That is just wrong. I bet if they saw, or heard me having a chat with my cats, they would think I needed checked into a hospital. It is simply not so, I just prefer the company, and conversation of my cats to that of most people I meet. This is another reason I refuse to see a psych doc or go to therapy. I do not need fixed, nor do I want to be. It just so happens that my furry beasts are better friends, and give much more intelligent conversation than most of our so-called friends who come and visit.

    So yes, if someone wishes to berate a teapot, they should be allowed to do so, and there is really no reason it should bother or worry anyone else.

    Even serial killers, and spree killers have been found to have been "normal" in over 99% of cases, and not to fit the definition of "mad!"

    So I think there are some extreme cases where help is needed, and like my husband, that isn't even necessarily psych help, sometimes they just need to learn how to cope, and deal with things in life. He did not need a pysch doc for that, it just happens to be where he first learned these strategies to help him balance his life to deal with things better. This also shows it had nothing to do with, as you say, a broken brain (disease) just things he didn't know how to handle in life.

    I also want to know why, in the US at least, not sure if it is the same in Oz, Suicide is illegal? While I know it is tragic for those left behind, that is pure selfishness on our parts, so why should we make it a crime, and arrest, or throw into a pysch hospital those who try? If we are going to go with all this right to life thing, and control of our own bodies, then the living or not living of ones life, should be ones own decision, and not a decision for a doc, or a court.

    Yes, I know those like your friends were truly awful because it was induced by the drugs they were made to take that messed up their brains. However, for those who aren't on any, and just don't want to be here, and have made their decision rationally, should it really be a crime?



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  18. #48
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    Thanks for your reply; I'm glad we understand where each of us is coming from.

    I talk to trees, especially ones I have just planted. I'm doing an indigenous re-vegetation on my property. I'm building corridors for small birds along my creek and especially to my spring. I have got the majority of trees established and I'm now working on the under story. It's great to see birds with mouth full of nesting material flying from tree to tree (that I planted) having a rest. They need these corridors. Anyway, I talk to and give as much encouragement as I can to everything I grow.

    Have you heard of panpsychism, the view that all matter has consciousness? The indigenous culture of my country has the belief that all natural things have a spirit but nothing man made does. I justify talking to things under this belief system. It feels good too; it connects you to the natural world.

    To answer your question about suicide. They changed the law 20 years or so back and suicide is now not illegal.

    When we look at other cultures such as Japan, suicide is a viewed in a totally different light; in fact most of our so-called mental disorders are norms in other cultures. (BTW I suppose you realise the USA leads the world in "mental illness" that is the percentage of the population.) In some cultures, people hearing voices and having animated conversations with dead relatives would be highly admired as having direct links to the afterlife. Here in the West it is viewed as a sign of schizophrenia. Who decided hearing voices was a sign of a disease? The eugenics movement of the 1900's that soon transformed it self into the American Psychiatric Association. How did they come to the conclusion of what feelings, thoughts and behavior was abnormal? By committee vote!

    For any disease to be real it must first have a medical etiology then this disease's causation must be permeable across all boarders and cultures. This however is not the case.

    World Health Organisation studies have repeatedly shown that people that would be classed as SZ here in the West almost go un-noticed and recover within a few years within their culture. This is in direct contrast to people diagnosed with SZ here in the West that are treated under the bio-chemical model who rarely recover.

    If you get time, maybe print this article out read it and pass it on. You'd be helping a lot of people that are suffering under the bio-psychiatry hypothesis by doing so.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-22-2016 at 01:22 PM.

  19. #49
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    I have bookmarked that article for future reference, and printing. Right now, I can't use up the ink for it, have to conserve for hubby's school projects, of which we have a ton each semester!

    Yes, you mentioned doing that with your property before, and I think that is so awesome. I know someday when we have a place of our own, my DH and I are planning something similar. I also imagine all the cats I can rescue again when I have a place for them.

    I talk to my cats, our dog, trees, flowers, and even my beanie babies. I enjoy it, and I know for a fact that my cats, and our doc enjoy it, they even answer me, and of course we are very close because of it.

    I love to take things such as stale bread, and leftover popcorn and toss it out for the birds, I have also put old broken baskets out for them. I break it up a little more, and then leave it in a pile so they can use it for nesting if they want. Sometimes my son will do little art projects for school with yarn, and raffia, and when they get old, I will throw those tidbits out, too. It is awesome to see a nest in the huge tree out there, that has a bright red piece of yarn in it, that I know I put out for them. The birds also provide great entertainment for my cats, through the windows only, of course.

    I have not heard that term for it before, but I am familiar with the belief, and I think that you can actually feel the soul if you take a moment to be quiet and listen.

    So when you say they changed the law, do you mean in Oz, or in the US? Because I know in the US, at least in some areas, it is still considered illegal, and if someone tries, and fails repeatedly, and will not cooperate with mental health workers, they will, and have, thrown them in jail for it.

    Yes, I do know a lot about mental illness, and how high the rate is in the US, as compared to other countries. DH had to take several Psych classes, and when he has papers to do, he always needs a typist. LOL! He does the work, but if he had to type them all himself, it would take him forever to get them done.

    I know for a fact that my favorite Uncle who died when I was 9 is with me almost all the time, watching over my family. I have seen him, and talked to him, and yes, many others have thought I was bonkers because of it. I think classifying such things as "abnormal" is just ridiculous, who are they to say what is, and isn't normal? That takes a lot of gall!

    The US has a real problem admitting those types of facts. I have seen many people with the same "symptoms" do just fine out on their own, with no meds, or intervention, and then others only get worse when they are kept in a clinical setting, and drugged up all the time. This goes for other supposed "illnesses" as well, depression, bi-polar, and etc.

    Well I am in a lot of pain today, and of course have a million things to do, so I think I am going to get something to eat, and then try to get a dose of kitty purr pain killers! LOL! Best medicine I've got.



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  20. #50
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    Sorry for not being clear. It is not illegal anymore to attempt suicide in Australia. But you'll probably end up getting a psychiatric community treatment order (CTO) or (forced drugging) slapped on you.

    Here are some interesting stats. In the state of New York, with its population of 19 million (approx.) there are 800 CTO's applied each year.

    In the state of Victoria, where I live, we have a population of 4.3 million and 16,000 CTO's are applied each year. Staggering figures hey? I'm glad I have got a place in the mountains to hide from society.

    I better get moving too; I've got a lot to do. I'm off on a 2-day break to Lake Mungo and I have stuff to finish. It’s my favorite place; it's where life began. Lake Mungo is the ultimate psychiatrist. CYA in a couple of days. Hope your back pain eases.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-22-2016 at 01:22 PM.

  21. #51
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    Wow, yes those figures are incredible.

    Hope you have a nice trip!



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  22. #52
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    Thanks, Lake Mungo was fantastic. It blows me away that a huge population of people was there 70 thousand years ago. It is just so old. You have to be there to feel it. I saw thousands of animals and the bird life was incredible. When I stare into the eye of a wild animal and see that confidence, that attunement to its environment, it just gives me an understanding of how wrong the artificial world that humans have created for themselves is. We've created a whole lot of unnecessary **** for ourselves and we're paying the price.

    Regarding those figures, there's more states in Australia that treat their psychiatric patient’s far worse. I got told last week that I've got an all expense’s paid trip to Adelaide (March 2006) to attend a conference and give a rave about natural recovery from schizophrenia and anti-psychiatry. I will demand my right to experience and interact with the world anyway I choose as a fundamental human right! There will be heap's of government officials, and a full spectrum of mental hellth workers as a captive audience. I'm going to go off like a frog in a sock. Bliss, I love doing this sort of stuff.

    How's the back?

  23. #53
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    Sounds like an awesome place to visit. I love it when I go visit my dad, he only has 3 acres, but it is heavily wooded, and mostly in its natural state. The neighbors property is all wooded and natural as well, so I love being able to stand in his kitchen, and watch deer, or raccoon out the window. One night I opened his back door to feed his cats, and there was this giant coon eating out of the cat bowl, he wasn't afraid of people either, just sat there and started at me, very beautiful.

    Now that speaking opportunity is one I know you are not going to miss. Wish I could be there to see it. Especially the looks on the faces of your "captive" audience. No more than what they deserve!

    My back hasn't been to bad, except when the weather here was acting up. It couldn't make up its mind to stay in one place there for a few days, and I was miserable, otherwise the meds are controlling most of my pain so far.

    How have you been otherwise?



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  24. #54
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    zippygoddess,

    I'm feeling good and refreshed from my short break. I'm going to plant more tree's today as it looks like a few days of rain is coming. My place is 5 acres; I live on the edge (about a mile) from the forest. I live in open woodland. There are really big trees hear that shade most of the area. The native grass is fantastic and I'm encouraging to spread which is working. I have a lot of water here, 3 springs and a creek (+ a dam) so I'm trying to work with that and plant what should be here.

    Your dad's place sounds great! We get deer here running around, they escape from deer farms.

    Regarding that speech, usually my colleagues have to apply the brakes on what I wish to say at public events. They’re scared I'll overwhelm people. Not this time, the person that has invited me to speak wants me to be at my most intense. I'm a much better speaker than writer; I'll be able to do it off the top of my head with just a few reference notes.

    This is what we are pushing for! We want $$$$ to set up a place just like the Soteria project. This is basically what my rave will be about, the failings of bio-psychiatry >> a safe place where people can recover in a supportive environment without the use of anti-psychotics. Pretty much the opposite of what I experienced in the mental health system.

    I've broken a lot of bones over the years, I broke my heel clean off 2 years ago, I am very lucky I don't get many aches and pains due to weather changes. I've read that people diagnosed with SZ rarely get arthritis and people with arthritis rarely get SZ. It seems to me that SZ types outwardly let go off a lot off stuff, hence the so-called odd behavior and others push a lot of stuff inwards which manifests in a lot physical symptoms. (Like berating a teapot instead, of remaining in a state of stress just to appear normal and in control). I don't mean this in your case, but do you know what I mean? It's almost makes common sense?

    I have a friend (ex friend) that believes all “mental illness” is just weakness. He pushes all his stress inside and bottled up. He had an attack of alopecia and half his hair fell out overnight. He needs a hip replacement and his whole digestive system has packed up.

    I was walking around in the nude in the desert playing my trumpet 2 days ago. If I got spotted I probably would be locked up, but it was a good, silly, abnormal, free thing to do. It was very spontaneous, and hillarious. It got a lot off stress out.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-22-2016 at 01:22 PM.

  25. #55
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    Yeah, I am glad you are feeling so well, I can tell from some of your posts that you have been stressing recently, and needed the relaxation time. If you got it in the nude, who cares, it worked. Yes, doing spontaneous, unpredictable things are great stress relievers, and make you feel back to nature, and back to yourself.

    Yes, my dad's place is awesome, I am looking forward to our trip down there for Thanksgiving, I am going to make him a full Turkey dinner. My brother wanted to cut the whole property and not leave any of it wild, but my dad wouldn't let, and has since kicked him out. LOL! Now he can't do anything to it. You can tell the difference in our family, I had a different mother than my brother did, he is 17 years older than me, so he was gone when I was very young, and after I was 5, I was raised alone by my dad. Dad loves animals, and so do, while my brother hates all of them. While he was living there, he got rid of a bunch of my dad's cats, tried to get rid of all of them, and his dogs. Thankfully it didn't wash, my dad was alone for so many years, that those are his babies.

    Yes, do it, be intense, shock them all, and make them think.

    No, I have not heard of that, thanks for the link, I will look it over later when I have time. I have to type a paper up for DH that he needs for school. He is excellent, straight A's, however he types so slow that if he had to type them all himself, they would never be done by the deadlines.

    Yes, I do understand what you mean. I have a friend like that, she bottles stuff up for so long, then she ends up in the hospital, on meds, only to find out that with MRI's, x-rays, blood tests, and etc. they can't find anything wrong with her. I always tell her she should scream, rant, and rave rather than hold it all in, and she wouldn't get sick so much, but she doesn't understand the logic of it. Her husband is even worse. I understand and DH and I will argue sometimes, just because we are both letting things out, it has nothing to do with being mad at each other, or marital problems.

    I am not surprised your ex-friend ran into so many problems. It is just not healthy. My husband proved that to me long ago.

    I don't have a teapot to rave at, so I will just stick with my cats, LOL! Same effect though, they also never repeat what I say to anyone else. So compared to people, sometimes talking to inanimate objects or animals, definitely has a benefit.





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  26. #56
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    Hopefully a free-range turkey? I say that not just because I've been a vegetarian for most of my life but because I've seen battery farms and what they feed the birds. They have these pit's where the chuck the dead birds, mix it up with some feces, let it get maggot ridden, add a few growth hormones to it and feed it back to the birds. Free-range birds get a bit of a real life too.

    I have no pets. I grew up with a small zoo in our backyard, we had about 2000 animals (mainly reptiles) We got so many given to us because reptiles weren’t protected and pet shops were selling them to anyone. People had no idea how to look after them so we ended up with heaps. We released as many as we could and the rest went to this huge wildlife sanctuary.

    Yes I have been stressed, I think I have to end a 20 year relationship with my best friend. I don't respect what she's doing, she's in a cult of new age types, psychic healers, talk about quackery. She wants me to visit but that wont work, she'll want to heal me or something horrible and if I don't go along with it I'll get branded as negative energy or closed minded. She now lives on the Gold Coast, which is the most horrible place in Australia, which makes the whole thing less appealing. I should just end it. It's just sad.

  27. #57
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    Sorry to say, I don't know what kind of Turkey it is, my DH picked it up actually, and I didn't pay any attention, other than to clear a spot on the shelf in the freezer. I have read about those kinds of places, and the animals they sell, it is awful. Now you will have me worried the whole time I am supposed to be cooking it.

    My neck and back is so out of whack today that I woke up with a pounding migraine, UGH! The only straight verterbrae I have are the first 3 in my neck, when the ones under there get knocked out of place, forget it, I am in misery.

    We actually have 4 cats, and one dog. Three of the cats are rescuees, and the dog was adopted from the pound. They are all totally spoiled and pampered. Well actually, this is their home, we just stay here to help since they don't have thumbs! LOL! I also have several strays who know this is the place to stop for a guaranteed free meal when they are in need, one even sit outside my windows and cries until I bring a full bowl out. Once when I was rescuing cats, when we lived out in the country, I had 19 cats at once.

    My dad ended up with many of his animals by rescue, ones that people were abusing, or neglecting, or they were going to put down for no reason. He has this huge, gorgeous German Shepherd that is a retired police dog, instead of putting him into a nice home, they were going to just put him down when he could no longer perform his job duties. My dad couldn't deal with that, so now he will live out his days as a pet, in this nice big pen in the yard where he can get plenty of exercise, he even insulates their dog houses, and if it gets too cold he takes them in the house in the winter. Sometimes he finds homes for some of them, some he keeps, since he has his acreage out there in the country, they can roam in safety.

    See, I knew you were stressing over something, the way you jumped on me, very defensively for awhile, gave it away. It just didn't seem to ring as your normal way of acting. I can see that you like a good debate, and you like to persuade people to listen to you, but the way you were upset with me, just didn't seem to come natural to you, your words gave you away.

    Isn't it strange, and of course super stressful, when someone you have been friends with for so long, does a sudden, and drastic turn around that changes them? It just boggles the mind, and of course seems unnatural, since most people do not change that dramatically in a very abrupt time period. I am always curious about people, do you happen to know if she recently went through a very rough, life altering experience? Or is this something that just happened.

    Please feel free to talk to me here, or even email me (verwon@gmail.com) to talk, or for support through this. I went through this about 4 years ago with a friend of mine, so I do understand what it does to you. It wasn't exactly the same situation of course, but we had been friends since we were 13, and once you are in your 30's, and still live near each other, and have married best friends, you don't expect those kinds of changes.

    However, one day, and this was shortly after I had to start seeing a doc for my back when the pain was getting out of control, she was moving to an apartment after she had kicked out her husband. She called to ask me if I had any boxes she could use to move her, and the kid's things. I said sure, just stop and grab them, I always keep my moving boxes after a move, in case we, or someone else needs them again. Well she made this excuse that her car was acting up, so she couldn't stop and get them herself, the relevant issue here is that she didn't even live a minute away from us by car, and drove by our house each day coming home from work. But, she expected me, after being just declared temporarily (at that time) disabled, to stack these boxes up, and physically carry them up this steep hill to her house for her. My DH of course, wouldn't drive them up for her, he was mad because of what she did to her husband, who was his best friend since grade school.

    So over this, it appeared that she wanted nothing more to do with me, after being friends for years. She wouldn't even talk to me anymore, and when another friend saw her in the store, who hadn't seen me for awhile, and asked her how I was doing, she pretended to not even remember me.

    Of course, awhile later, the whole true story came out. Basically I know too much about her, and her past, so she was just looking for an excuse to kick me out of her life. She took this apartment, and paid the rent to make it look good for her divorce, to get what she wanted from her husband. When of course, she had been cheating on him for quite sometime, (don't even know if their second child is his) and was really staying at her paramour's home. She was also back on drugs, which she had a problem with when we were kids, before I had met her. However, she doesn't want her new in-laws to know anything about her past, and I know it all, so I must be kept away from them. I, however, made it clear that I care, and would be around if she needed me, so she is the one who choose to never get in touch with me again.

    So there are sometimes some underlying issues that cause these strange changes, and we who are innocent, and on the outside of it, don't always know what they are right away.

    However, if you can't respect her life style now, just be honest and tell her. If she brands you as close minded, or whatever, then you know at least you were honest, and did the right thing, and the ball of friendship is in her court. It will also help with your stress over it, if you know in your heart, and mind that you did your best in the situation.




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  28. #58
    bn7
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    zippysgoddess,

    Actually, that initial online style is pretty much my constant style, you just guessed well. I never raved to anyone online like this before!

    I shouldn't put all the blame on my friend; I've changed a lot too. I've always loathed the culture I live in. It was the main reason I ended up in the mad house, nothing has changed much on that front except I'm less outgoing (I don't even look for others that feel like me) and have become a hermit. I avoid going out.

    In my mid twenties until my mid thirties I was very social, I partied non-stop with other people that loathed the culture too. That's pretty much where >>>>>> made a big impact on my life. I was using when I was twenty but I didn't really hit it big until I was 25. When I hit 35 I had to make that choice to give up or die using. So, to give up successfully you have to split the social network right! The only people I knew were junkies so I had to break off loads of relationships. I've pretty much learnt that I don't need people, or that I don't get along with straight people so I just stay home.

    My Gold Coast friend gave up junk and did the split the scene thing too.

    My friend has just turned 40, (I'm 46 btw) and she's having a mid-life crisis. She's not handling it very well. It is a bit confronting saying goodbye to your youth and entering mid-life but ya got to do it. She's pretty much doing it kicking and screaming. She's going for the 25-8 year old studs for boy friends (which have all been disasters) and going to gigs and hanging out with mid twenties types desperately trying to hang on to her youth.

    When we talk about me visiting she gives me this list of stuff we can do that freaks me out. I don't wanna meet all her 20 year old friends and hang out in the twenties scene, you know, gigs n parties and all this horrible **** that I am so over. I’ve done gigs and parties to death. So many people have said I should write a book about those 15-17 years of my life. I'm skipping heaps of boring detail but once, doing a gig or riot on smack, speed, acid, pot, booze was a great night. Now a great night, is a night in alone with a good book and a bottle of red? I’m 46 and I want to act my age! I'm still a very bent person but I'll only come out to play on my terms.

    I just reckon all her 20's mates are going to look at me as if I just sat up out of a coffin. LOL

    So there you have it, I'm a boring, burnt out 46-year-old fart that is happily middle aged. She want's me to be something I've grown out of. I changed my Dr Martens for slippers.

    All that magical healing cult **** is a drag too. She's really scared of her own mortality so that's where that all fits in.






  29. #59
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    Hi! Just wanted to let you know I read this, and do have some comments, but I have a massive paper to type for DH right now, so I will pop in later when I have more time.



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    Well I am back, though my typing fingers are worn out, and I am sick of US foreign policy. LOL!

    Anyway, I guess you just needed to rave then, and get it out of your system.

    There is nothing wrong with being a hermit, if that is the way you are happy. Many people think there is something wrong with my DH and me, because we don't go out and socialize much, or party. But we just prefer to be homebodies and hang out here together.

    Yes, if you kept hanging around other junkies, then the temptation for you never goes away, because it always in front of your face, and of course friends always want to share.

    LOL! Yes, when you are in your 40's, and trying to date someone in their 20's it is almost always a disaster. (I am 34, and DH is 33, so only a year and a half between us)

    She is definitely fighting her age with everything she has in her, it might have a sad result in the long run, when she realizes that her young friends aren't really her friends, and she is left to herself to face a sad old age.





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