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Froggy's World
  1. #1
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Default Froggy's World

    How I got here:

    Around 2005-6 I picked up a nasty H habit that lasted a couple of years. I married and subsequently divorced the girl that introduced me to that crazy world. It took two trips to rehab and me staying away from that girl to get and stay clean, and I did, for the next 8 years. Fast forward a little bit and I continued to date the same girl off and on as we were both clean and sober at this point. 2015 rolls around and we moved back in together and had a daughter who is now going on 3. I never loved her any less but the relationship was a bit turbulent this time around and we ultimately both fell off the wagon back in 2016. First pills and then back to H. It got the best of me at times and I bounced back and forth from the habit to subs and back again. We went our separate ways a few months back and as far as I know she is clean but I continued to struggle with addiction. I landed a good paying job and it was all downhill from there. I was spending way too much on my habit and it was getting WAY out of hand super fast. I'm no stranger to subs so I copped a handful and here I am Time to put this thing to bed once and for all, AGAIN! I stabilized on 8 mg of sub this morning and so far am feeling pretty darn good all things considered!

  2. #2
    somo is offline Advanced Member
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    Glad you started your own thread! The background helps too! Again, 8, 4, then 2. You got this no problem. Fortunately, you haven't lost it all and have so much to be thankful for, and so many to help you along the way!
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  3. #3
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggy_069 View Post
    How I got here:

    Around 2005-6 I picked up a nasty H habit that lasted a couple of years. I married and subsequently divorced the girl that introduced me to that crazy world. It took two trips to rehab and me staying away from that girl to get and stay clean, and I did, for the next 8 years. Fast forward a little bit and I continued to date the same girl off and on as we were both clean and sober at this point. 2015 rolls around and we moved back in together and had a daughter who is now going on 3. I never loved her any less but the relationship was a bit turbulent this time around and we ultimately both fell off the wagon back in 2016. First pills and then back to H. It got the best of me at times and I bounced back and forth from the habit to subs and back again. We went our separate ways a few months back and as far as I know she is clean but I continued to struggle with addiction. I landed a good paying job and it was all downhill from there. I was spending way too much on my habit and it was getting WAY out of hand super fast. I'm no stranger to subs so I copped a handful and here I am Time to put this thing to bed once and for all, AGAIN! I stabilized on 8 mg of sub this morning and so far am feeling pretty darn good all things considered!
    Welcome Froggy!

    Glad you got your own thread started. I did find your plan for using those subs on Force's thread while you were chatting with Trouble. Would you mind sharing how you plan doing your taper here so that others will know too? We always recommend Robert's Sub Taper Plan that is a slow taper that takes 6-8 weeks but I have seen others succeed doing it the way you are planning. Please do share it and be sure to update at least once a day so that others who come along have the benefit of seeing how this works for you. Options are good.

    Welcome again.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    In all honesty I don't know if I went into this with too much of a plan per se. I kinda figured I would see how much sub it took to stabilize and then tomorrow cut my dosage in half and see how I feel then? I know, I really should have a bit more of a structured plan. I've reviewed Robert's plan several times in the past and I know he has helped sooo many people with it but for me I need something a bit shorter. I've abused subs in the past and I really just want to get it over with in short order.
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  5. #5
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    One thing I definitely DO NOT recommend to anyone is taking your sub too soon. I didn't listen to my own advice today and thankfully there were no problems but I have switched too soon in the past and paid the price dearly. Precipitated w/d is nothing to mess with! You can google it, there is a COWS worksheet available to gauge your w/d systems and know if you are ready. For me I try to never wait any less than 24 hrs. The pupils always told the story for me. If you're feeling like total >>>> and your pupils are fully dilated then your most likely far enough along in your w/d. You might feel like total >>>> having to wait it out but it's nothing compared to how you'll feel if you take your sub too soon. Can't stress it enough!

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Day 1 recap.

    Made the move to subs way too soon today but it all worked out, regardless, I don't recommend doing that!

    Felt pretty good and ate 3 square meals. Felt a bit un-energetic when it came to keeping up with my little one but all in all wasn't too bad.

    Was fairly stable at 8 mg of sub for the better part of the day but toward evening started getting the sweats and feeling really off. Took 4 more mg for a total of 12. In hindsight maybe should have toughed it out to see how far it went ... maybe it would have passed quick? Also, if I needed the additional sub I should've done 2 more mg, not 4.

    12 was the number for today. Little one is off to bed soon and I'm not far behind. Back to work tomorrow so I have that to look forward to.

    Tomorrow is another day!

  7. #7
    somo is offline Advanced Member
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    Subs or bupe? I thought you said bupe elsewhere. That was probably someone else. Either one has a 24+ hour half life so the wd symptoms were possibly psychological. Try making your mind up right now that 8 is your max tomorrow. Assume your childs life depends on you only taking 8 and absolutely nothing could trick you into more. A strong mindset and strong will and determination will make everything easier. It's like quitting CT in jail. If you convince yourself that you can't have more, you can force your brain to make peace with your decision. Set goals, and don't let anything get in your way!

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by somo View Post
    Subs or bupe? I thought you said bupe elsewhere. That was probably someone else. Either one has a 24+ hour half life so the wd symptoms were possibly psychological. Try making your mind up right now that 8 is your max tomorrow. Assume your childs life depends on you only taking 8 and absolutely nothing could trick you into more. A strong mindset and strong will and determination will make everything easier. It's like quitting CT in jail. If you convince yourself that you can't have more, you can force your brain to make peace with your decision. Set goals, and don't let anything get in your way!
    Sorry, I did say bupe. Force of habit calling it Suboxone. It's the generic form - Buprenorphine with Naloxone, even has the same horrid taste!

    Yes, setting goals is a fantastic idea and is gonna be the way to go!

  9. #9
    Lvg nghtmare is offline Platinum Member
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    Set goals good advice.. you have to want this more than anything for yourself. You can do this make a plan moving forward and stick with it. You know the drill what to expect.. Getting Face to Face support will also help you..it will hold you accountable. Keep us updated on your progress.. Stay Strong for Today..

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    somo is offline Advanced Member
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    The bupe doesn't have the Naloxone like subs. That helps if you start a little early, but can still screw you up if you start real early. Your mind can either be your greatest ally, or your worse enemy right now, and the difference between the two is about as far as the east is from the west. An early start getting it mentally ready to quit will make a huge difference. Indecision, worry, fear, dread, etc... will certainty prolong the misery.

    I gotta get to bed as I start work early, but can't wait to hear about your successful progress tomorrow!

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    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    I know it sounds hokey but every morning I kinda have a pep talk in the shower. It helps. The mind is a very powerful thing. If you keep thinking about feeling bad and not making it through the day your mind will find something to blame it on. Just stay the course. You can do this!! Drink tons of water and Gatorade. They really dehydrate you. Keep us updated on how it goes!! Welcome to your new thread. Feels good right???

    Stay strong
    Beef
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  12. #12
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggy_069 View Post
    Day 1 recap.

    Made the move to subs way too soon today but it all worked out, regardless, I don't recommend doing that!

    Felt pretty good and ate 3 square meals. Felt a bit un-energetic when it came to keeping up with my little one but all in all wasn't too bad.

    Was fairly stable at 8 mg of sub for the better part of the day but toward evening started getting the sweats and feeling really off. Took 4 more mg for a total of 12. In hindsight maybe should have toughed it out to see how far it went ... maybe it would have passed quick? Also, if I needed the additional sub I should've done 2 more mg, not 4.

    12 was the number for today. Little one is off to bed soon and I'm not far behind. Back to work tomorrow so I have that to look forward to.

    Tomorrow is another day!

    Good Morning Froggy,

    How did your night go? 12mg!!!! That is a really, REALLY high dose. Crazy high. It bears repeating that with subs, less is more. Taking too much is going to make you feel sick too. It's the reason why it's always recommended to induct with tiny doses once per hour until your symptoms are gone. You are absolutely right about the fact that you shouldn't have added 4mg and said you should have taken two. I would have advised you to not take anymore and push through it. If you really needed more, then I'd have said to try an additional 1/4 or 1/2mg!! I can't remember what you were using and how much so I'll have to go back and look but unless you're switching from methadone (and I'm pretty sure that's not the case with you) rarely do I see anyone who needs more than 4-6mg/day and most often 4 or less. These are even people who are coming off the hard stuff. I really have to go back and remind myself what you were taking and how much.

    Once you were stable yesterday, I would have encouraged you to push through those minor symptoms. It can take a day or two to get really stable after induction and with each reduction. If you give in to the minor symptoms, you'll be stuck in place. This will never be without symptoms popping up now and then especially in the beginning and when you reduce. Please trust me when I say that 8mg is more than enough and I bet that you'd do quite well on even less than that. Do your best to push through these minor annoying symptoms and you WILL stabilize and level out. You just have to give it a day or two.

    That's my pep talk. Not criticizing you, just trying to help. I hope today goes smoothly for you. Check in and let us know how you're doing.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  13. #13
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    OK. Just went back to remind myself. It doesn't change my opinion. 8mg is still a big dose. It could be that you need that much but I'm not convinced that you need 12mg. Try to back off today and avoid taking that much again. You really shouldn't need it.

    Check in soon. I'm thinking about how you are today.

    Peace,

    Cat

  14. #14
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hello Froggy!

    I just want to 2nd everything that Cat has told you. There isn't anyone that will ever require 12mgs of Suboxone daily. Even the most hard core addicts need less than that. Only those coming from Methadone MAY need more than 6mg per day. Methadone is very strong and also retains a half life very similar to the subs. I was abusing drugs for nearly 18 years. I was taking upwards of 300mgs of Oxy daily, and many days taking 20-25 of the 7.5mg Vicodins, and also coming from 200+ mgs of Methadone and I was completely stable on 8mgs of Suboxone. So you'll actually require far less than that. But it's definitely a head game where we think more is better like the good addicts we are.

    Here's the thing with Suboxone....Once you have taken a very large dose, such as the 12mg you have, you can take far less than that on the 2nd day, and everyday after because of the long half life of the subs. It will still be in your system doing it's job. So on the 2nd day you could try taking around 6mg and I bet you'll feel fine physically. I would split that 6mg and take 3mg in the am and 3mg about 8-10 hours later. Again, your head may mess with you and make you believe you'll need more sub. As cat said, fight through and after a day or two your system will accept that dose and you'll feel fine. Then you can resume the 25% taper every 4-7 days.

    Hope this helps,

    Randy

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Thanks Cat. Yes, I agree that 12 mg was probably too much to start. I should have pushed through like you said because I'm sure it was mostly all mental. The mental aspect is really a huge part of this just as everyone has been saying. I have my sights set on a much lower dose today and I know there will be symptoms but I'll work past them, it's still way better than going c/t!

    I woke today with crawling skin and pretty chilled all over but I did sleep through the night thankfully. I work nights so I'm trying to get a few things done around here before I have to go but motivation seems to be hard to come by today!

  16. #16
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy35 View Post
    Hello Froggy!

    I just want to 2nd everything that Cat has told you. There isn't anyone that will ever require 12mgs of Suboxone daily. Even the most hard core addicts need less than that. Only those coming from Methadone MAY need more than 6mg per day. Methadone is very strong and also retains a half life very similar to the subs. I was abusing drugs for nearly 18 years. I was taking upwards of 300mgs of Oxy daily, and many days taking 20-25 of the 7.5mg Vicodins, and also coming from 200+ mgs of Methadone and I was completely stable on 8mgs of Suboxone. So you'll actually require far less than that. But it's definitely a head game where we think more is better like the good addicts we are.

    Here's the thing with Suboxone....Once you have taken a very large dose, such as the 12mg you have, you can take far less than that on the 2nd day, and everyday after because of the long half life of the subs. It will still be in your system doing it's job. So on the 2nd day you could try taking around 6mg and I bet you'll feel fine physically. I would split that 6mg and take 3mg in the am and 3mg about 8-10 hours later. Again, your head may mess with you and make you believe you'll need more sub. As cat said, fight through and after a day or two your system will accept that dose and you'll feel fine. Then you can resume the 25% taper every 4-7 days.

    Hope this helps,

    Randy
    Thanks Randy. I expect to be off the subs altogether withing 4 to 7 days so there is going to be an adjustment either way. I've been down this road a few times before so I know it's not going to be painless, I just need to get out of my own head!

  17. #17
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Froggy -

    Yep, I understand what your goal is. But I kindly urge you to reconsider the time you're planning on remaining on the subs. Just so you are aware, a short taper, or very short time on subs very rarely produces long term sobriety. The relapse rate is very high among the getting on and off the subs quickly. NOT saying that has to be you, just saying based on experience.

    I read your entire thread and know you've been down this road multiple times. You were able to score a "handful" of subs and hopefully that will lead you to the other side where being clean is the way to live. I really and truly hope you make it.

    Suboxone is intended to suppress wd's from other opiates and it does that quite well. But it also has another benefit...It allows you to live life as normal as possible without worrying about taking garbage (drugs) all day long. It helps you to get away from the thought and actions of scoring pills and other substances. It allows you to realize that you don't need addicticve drugs to survive. When you know that you're done with drugs for good is when you're done with the subs. Robert's Sub Plan takes about 6-8 weeks. For most people that's almost always a good time frame. Took me a while longer, but when the day came that I knew for absolute certain addictive drugs would no longer be a part of my life is when I got off the subs.

    I'm NOT trying to talk you into anything. I'm merely relaying information I've obtained through the years by personal experience and the experience of helping many others both on this forum and in my personal life from those in NA and AA meetings. Suboxone is a wonderful tool, but it needs to be used correctly to get the maximum benefit out of it.

    I wish you the best and I truly hope your plan works perfectly.

    Randy

  18. #18
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Thanks Randy, I get exactly what you're saying. I believe that you're right and if one is not at the point where they are ready to be done for good then there is no taper plan that's really going to work, you have to want it or you're going to fall right back into the same old cycle. Perhaps I should have put a little more prep work into kicking because I don't really have well laid out plan and I probably should. I'm just taking it day by day at this point. Once I get to work today I have time for little else so it only serves to work in my favor. To say I've done this in the past is not a testament to anything because right here I am trying again. I'm pretty tired of it though and I welcome the change so there's that.
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  19. #19
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Haven't felt bad today at all. A little wonky this morning but it passed soon enough. Just made it to work and for some reason have the shakes really bad. I have thyroid and blood sugar problems so I'm contributing it to that. I do feel a little strange being here, almost like I feel shy around people. Probably just more aware of things now and not off in left field somewhere, lol. How can they have not known what has been up with me lately? Who am I kidding, I'm sure somebody suspected something along the way.

    Anyhow, here's to another day!
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  20. #20
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    That's a good observation. When we're actively using, we almost always think that we're doing such a grand job of keeping it a secret. At least in my world, that was never the case. Either we're not that cleaver or everyone else isn't that stupid. Of course, being a recovering addict and having a son who is an active addict, my radar is finely tuned. I can see it a mile away and I bet you can too.

    I'm glad Randy checked in and shared his advice with you. I've never used subs but been around here along enough to know that Randy is absolutely correct. He always is, by the way. Our journey has to be our own. It won't work any other way but we can certainly take notice of the advice given to us by those who have walked before us. Hope you give Randy's words consideration. If it takes you around eight weeks to complete a "proper taper" that wouldn't be the end of the world and if it would increase your chances of staying clean, it'd be more than well worth it. Having been down this road many times myself, I can safely and honestly say that getting clean is the easy part. Staying clean is the tricky part and by removing yourself from the behavior to continue to use, it will hopefully give you a leg up toward getting some time behind you before you're truly on your own.

    Addiction is more than the dependence on a chemical, we can't diminish the power of the ritual. I can remember running out and waiting for my guy to call. All of the symptoms would be kicking in and I didn't know where to put myself. Then the call would come and I'd instantly feel much better. Not perfect, but better. Even after having a few months of clean time behind me, I caught myself reaching into the cabinet for the bottle of Excedrin. I stopped mid-motion and realized that I was doing that all of the time and it was for no other reason except to take something. I put the bottle back without taking any but realized just how much of my behavior was that of an addict. That was only one of many things and fortunately it was a habit that was easy to break once I acknowledged it. It's these kinds of things that you should be working on now. Sorting out what's going on in your head and what is truly a physical thing and then begin to change behaviors.

    View this as a life style change because that's exactly what it is. Some things will be easier to change than others. This is the primary reason why recovering addicts get so involved in other things...in order to replace bad habits with good ones. Eating healthy, working out, hobbies, service, and meetings. It's the way we need to live not just now but forever so we may as well make changes that will please us so that instead of being arduous work, it's improving our lives.

    Let us know how you're planning on moving forward. Not so that we can argue a better way but to support you in your decision. We can share our experience and our advice and then it's up to you what you take and what you won't. You've made the first big step of deciding to quit. It is very important, though to have a plan so I'm glad that Randy got you thinking about that. We have to have a plan and then we can follow it one day at a time.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Thanks cat, you're absolutely right, we can't diminish the power of the ritual. There was a time when I was IVing suboxone doing way too many in a day knowing full well there was no pleasure or benefit to be gained from it simply for the ritual. It was a tough mindset to get out of but I eventually did. I learned to play guitar and added several more computer languages to the ones I already know making lifestyle changes and occupying my time with other things. Now I have my daughter to focus my time on and I'm grateful for that. She is definitely a daddy's girl!

    I dropped to 6 MG today and I'll go lower tomorrow. I can't right now because I'm at work but when I get home I'll look to see what I have left and come up with a better plan from there. Part of the reason I want a shorter taper, and only part, is because of the availability of the subs. I don't have a script for them, not do I want one. I guess they're not so hard to come by if you know the right people but I don't, and that not necessarily a bad thing.

  22. #22
    Leah987 is offline Senior Member
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    Hi, Froggy....I can't add a thing to the great advice you've been given. Just know that we are ALL on your side. Welcome to the forum!
    .....Ryka-Leah

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leah987 View Post
    Hi, Froggy....I can't add a thing to the great advice you've been given. Just know that we are ALL on your side. Welcome to the forum!
    Thanks Leah!

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    Forceout is offline Member
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    Hey Frog

    I haven't had a chance to read it all but just stumbled on your thread. You've got some stars hanging here. Awesome, bro.

    I'm pulling for you. You are on the short list of folks (from here) that I think about every day. I hope and pray your days are easy and not too stressful while you do this all so important work. Keep it up and stay strong. It seems you know the gig and that's way ahead at the beginning.

    My first post outside my house!!!
    Thanks for having me over!!!!!! Plow on brother.

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    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Force! Good to see you getting out a little buddy, lol!

    I'll get through this. It sucks I have to again but I have no one to blame but myself! It helps tremendously knowing everyone here has my back.

    So far so good.
    Day 1 12mg
    Day 2 6mg
    Day 3 2mg so far, may or may not settle on another 2 later today.

  26. #26
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Not feeling too bad today. A bit rough in the morning but it passed soon enough. The mood swings are starting it seems. Mostly just getting a little down about how close I came to royally screwing things up again but thankfully didn't. It's funny how the mind of an addict works and how we're so willing to sacrifice so much for so little. And for what?

    12 MG of subs left. I'll come up with a taper using what is there. So far so good.
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  27. #27
    Lvg nghtmare is offline Platinum Member
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    Hello froggy,. Not sure just exactly what to say other than WOW that's huge drops.. know I'm in your corner cheering you on. I quit cold turkey off massive amounts of methadone and hydromorphone.. looking back now taper would have been much easier physically and mentally. But I could not taper this good Addict will always want More. I think for me the traumatic experience I've been through has changed me. This journey I will never forget. The only suggestion I have for you is you have to Mentally be ready and want this more than anything in else for yourself.. We are all here to support you..
    Stay Strong for Today..
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  28. #28
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Thanks lvg! Yes, they are larger drops so far and probably because of the half life of these things it hasn't really caught up with me yet, lol. We'll see! I was thinking of perhaps letting myself stabilize on 1 or 2 MG for a day or 2 of its possible and then drop again from there. I know it's not going to be painless but I also don't want to drag it out any more than I have to. Somo said it best that it's kinda like a band-aid, stings a bit when you pull it off but best to just get it over with!
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  29. #29
    Lvg nghtmare is offline Platinum Member
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    I agree I'm a big fan of Cold turkey. For me I knew I was done with the Garbage. Have to say Randy has awesome advice. This was...Is my first time quitting Opiates first time in 30+ years in active addiction.. one I promise you I won't forget. I was alone other than all here on this forum..I'm grateful for that. I understand now why Randy is saying a slow taper the addict brain...gives you time to adjust to life on life's terms. I also believe Face to Face support is beneficial. One Addict helping another. That's just me..

    For me I ripped that bandaid off had a funeral flushed all the Garbage and have not looked back since.. just a few days over a year now..so it's possible you just have to want it.

    Stay Strong for Today..
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  30. #30
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    I agree with everything lvg just said. I agree that c/t is a great way to go. I jumped from 1mg about 50 ish days ago. It took me around a month to get back to quasi normal ( thanks forceout, told you I'd steal it) Granted I was on them for around 5 years. I'm don't know much about short tapers. But I know that 1mg of sub is still a pretty hefty amount. It was a rollercoaster for sure. I think I read from Randy or cat that subs are around 30 times stronger than morphine. I don't want to dissuade you from your course of action whatever that may be. Just saying that if I had known about that taper plan I'd have seriously given it a chance. Reduced the suffering a little so to speak. I know you really want to be done with all this right now and that's great!! That's the mindset you need. Hold on to that!!! Just know whatever route you take we will all be here rooting you on!! Keep a positive outlook it helps!!

    Stay strong
    Beef
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