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I need help! Sub taper
  1. #1
    Mcdoodle413 is offline New Member
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    Default I need help! Sub taper

    To make a long story short I dabbled with H on and off years ago and just always loved the opiate high as I've always been kind of an introvert and depressed type person. My fiancé passed away 2 years ago and I stopped for an entire year and somehow some way ran into the very person who ever got me started on it in the first place, on Christmas of all days!! So here we are almost a year later and I HAVE to get clean. I am broke, I'm ruining my life and friendships, I'm not happy, I don't want to live this lifestyle. I'm a good person and I just want my freedom back ! I was doing anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 gram a day. Anyways I had my last dose Friday around 10am I then tried to over medicate to get through the worst of the w/d bc I'm a p***y when it comes to this stuff!! Mental is one thing the physical I just can't !!! I took my first sub the next day Saturday around 1pm I waited a little longer bc I'm terrified of pwd I took 4 and after an hour still was not ok so I took another 4-- Sunday I took probably 4mg total 2 in the am and 3 in the evening ... Monday I took probably 1mg in the a.m. And had traffic court felt kinda >>>>ty but I pushed through and then went to work and then took another 1mg later that evening and then this morning I took another 1mg... I got zero sleep last night bc I have had horrible indigestion and no matter how tired my body is my mind will not get tired . I have not been able to eat and now I don't even want to drink anything bc all I can do is keep burping and burping and I'm so uncomfortable. I said the other day "I'd rather be hi then to deal with this" and then wanted to hit myself... in done I'm done I'm done!!! Someone pleaSe give me advice... I know short term tapers are not recommended but I know mentally I can push through the cravings I have a huge support system and not only that I just don't want to do it anymore - this is the longest I've ever done H consecutively! Someone please help

  2. #2
    Mcdoodle413 is offline New Member
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    I meant to say Sunday I took 2mg in the evening not 3

  3. #3
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Welcome!

    I think that the way you're using the subs are going to make things harder and not easier for you. You are right when you said that short term tapers don't usually work. All that it's doing is delaying the physical symptoms until you try to jump from the subs and when you do, unless you taper down correctly, those symptoms are going to last longer.

    Before you get too much further into this, I would encourage you to really think about how you're using those subs. Do you have a script? If you are determined to try using the subs, I would suggest that you stop them entirely for at least a couple of days to allow what you've already taken to dissipate and to put yourself back into withdrawal. Once you're good and sick, then reinduct using the protocol described in Robert's Sub Taper Plan that's been used successfully by countless people. When you're ready to reinduct, you would take a 1/2mg of the sub and wait 45 minutes to an hour and then begin to take 1/4mg pieces until you are stable, meaning little to no symptoms. Once that happens, that would be your initial dose. Most folks get stable somewhere between 2 and 4mg/day but the only way to find your lowest effective dose is to induct slowly like I described above.

    Once you've established your dose, you can split it in half and take one half in the morning and the other half 8-10 hours later, just not too close to bedtime. You would then follow the taper plan we use here by reducing your dose by 25% every four or five days but only if you're stable. I know you want to taper quickly but you've made a strong point of letting us know that you just can't deal with the physical symptoms. I promise you, the way you're using the subs is only delaying them and it won't eliminate them. PLUS they will last far longer than if you had just jumped cold turkey.

    Please consider what I just said before too much longer goes by using those subs. The longer you continue to use them the way you described, the harder it's going to be to get on the right track. Good luck and my very best wishes. Keep posting and asking questions. You can get through this if you want it badly enough. There's no easy way, though. We just have to walk right through it one way or the other.

    Peace,

    Cat

  4. #4
    Mcdoodle413 is offline New Member
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    Thank you for your reply! And I appreciate the advice however I cannot do roberts plan. I have an executive level job and can not take the time off of work and I am also a single mother. It's not so much that I can't take the lack of energy, not being able to sleep or eat and the GI issues-- sure those are pretty inconvenient but the physical symptoms I'm speaking of are the full blown w/d symptoms. I have heard of and seen plenty of successful short term tapers on here and I am obviously already experiencing mild w/ds due to jumping from 8 the first day 4 the second 2 the 3rd ... I'm sure I will experience some w/d but do u not at all think a short term taper is possible. I do not have a script to subs-- and I only have one and a half 8mg strip left

  5. #5
    Mcdoodle413 is offline New Member
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    Can someone ANYONE HELP me!!! I am on my way to work and of course I'm feeling pretty crummy-- I mean I'm ok enough to get ready and sit at my desk and do my job, but very low energy .. the point of my sub taper is I never wanted to be at a high enough dose to have to taper down for an extended time bc I don't have those recourses or the time for experimenting... I can deal with mild symptoms just not full blown hell. Can someone give me some feed back please on what to do with the rest of the 8mg strip I have and how to taper the rest of the way... I've seen hundreds of success stories and I do not want subs in my system for a very long time I've done that before and I will not do it again. All it does is cause me to either want to stay on subs or to relapse and I just want to be done with it all. Like I said I have a great job and I'm a single mother I'm very strong willed I just make bad decisions sometimes but the buck stops here. Please any advice...?

  6. #6
    GoodDaysAhead is offline Member
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    Sorry to hear you're going through such a difficult time, Mcdoodle. Withdrawal isn't the same for everyone...some have a rougher time than others. The best thing would be to do a proper sub taper, but it sounds like you only have a little sub to work with. If you are truly determined and want free from this cycle, I would do what you can to take a few days off and ride out the withdrawal. Messing around with sub like that isn't going to help. I have no experience with H, but it seems the worst of it is over after about a week. You haven't used H since Friday, so you may have a few days of bad physical withdrawal to deal with, but wont be as bad as if you went cold turkey. I would try to get a few days off work and deal with this. If you are unable or don't want to do this then I would see a doctor about getting on sub short term and do a proper taper. This would greatly minimize the withdrawals.
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  7. #7
    Mcdoodle413 is offline New Member
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    Thank you for your reply. But I am confused... I'm already going through mild w/d due to how I have tapered the subs.. I haven't felt completely comfortable which is the point. I have seen a bunch of success stories on here of people who have done a quick detox using subs anywhere between 4-5 and obviously more days. I have seen and heard of this in many forums. It's the point of tricking your brain to where you get through the worst of the w/d while having to deal with minor w/d but your body does not get long enough time to be addicted to the bupe so u don't really w/d at the end... it's a taper. I waited about 35 hours after my last use oh H before I dosed the sub and I have cut down by half each time. I k ow this is not recommended bc it can lead to relapse bc your brain does not get enough time to really level back out. But I honestly am not worried about that part as I have deleted all numbers and have no friends who use. And I am just done. I want my life back. All I'm asking is if there is anyone out there who knows anything about short term sub tapers...? The long term is only to prevent relapse but I do not want it in my system that long.
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  8. #8
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Hello and welcome. I don't know much about short term tapers. I was a long time sub user at high amounts. What I have seen and read on this forum is that short tapers rarely work. That's not to say you can't do it. But I would think it's going to get worse before it gets better. Sorry. I know you said you couldn't do Roberts taper plan. But that is the best way to minimise your pain. Have you looked into getting into a sub doctor. If you go in and explain your situation I'm sure they would write you a prescription. Just be honnest with them and tell them everything. I know that this is not what you want to hear and for that I apologise. This is just my humble opinion. I wish you nothing but the best and I hope you slay this monster. Keep us posted and let us know what you decide moving forward.

    Stay strong!!
    Beef
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  9. #9
    GoodDaysAhead is offline Member
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    You said you have 1 and a half 8mg strip left, correct? Without enough Suboxone, or the time to follow Roberts taper correctly then you could just not use a timeline for this situation. Wait as long as you possibly can between each dose. When it comes time, take the smallest amount possible and you could even add slivers when needed to get you through any bad periods of the withdrawal. With the little you have, the point would be to minimize the symptoms with the sub at the lowest effective dose. If you had more sub, a more comfortable taper would work. You may still feel some symptoms but even that little bit of sub will make it much more manageable since it seems you can't take any time off work. Suboxone is very strong, so try and keep the doses low and just enough that you're able to function and still deal with your commitments.

  10. #10
    Lvg nghtmare is offline Platinum Member
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    Hello Mcdoddle, I'm kind of confused myself did you go from h to subs? How long how much were you getting them from a doctor or the street. I ask this because it sounds like you were using and abusing on as needed basis. For me I'm an addict I always wanted more I have no self control. Can you get more subs to do a proper taper. Do it once do it right..it works! You have to really want this for yourself. There is no magic cure for the withdrawals Sorry to say and believe me I've searched high and low. We all have to go through the withdrawal process if you taper down low it should not be a traumatic process. It takes time for our bodies and brain to heal from all the abuse we have done. Have you checked into getting face to face support Na,Aa, counseling, thearpy it would benefit you as it will hold you accountable and build a support system. Let us know what your plans are moving forward..be well in whatever path you choose...
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  11. #11
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcdoodle413 View Post
    Thank you for your reply. But I am confused... I'm already going through mild w/d due to how I have tapered the subs.. I haven't felt completely comfortable which is the point. I have seen a bunch of success stories on here of people who have done a quick detox using subs anywhere between 4-5 and obviously more days. I have seen and heard of this in many forums. It's the point of tricking your brain to where you get through the worst of the w/d while having to deal with minor w/d but your body does not get long enough time to be addicted to the bupe so u don't really w/d at the end... it's a taper. I waited about 35 hours after my last use oh H before I dosed the sub and I have cut down by half each time. I k ow this is not recommended bc it can lead to relapse bc your brain does not get enough time to really level back out. But I honestly am not worried about that part as I have deleted all numbers and have no friends who use. And I am just done. I want my life back. All I'm asking is if there is anyone out there who knows anything about short term sub tapers...? The long term is only to prevent relapse but I do not want it in my system that long.
    I hope that you don't give up on us because we're not helping with the best way to use that one 8mg strip. I know that it can be confusing not understanding why a short sub taper doesn't usually work. The primary reason is that one of the active ingredients in subs in a very strong opiate that binds to the same receptors as the H you were using. This is the reason that it eliminates withdrawal symptoms entirely if used correctly and will minimize them even using very small amounts. The problem is that subs bind so tightly to the receptors so that no other opiate can take up residence there that it's half life is many, many times longer than any short acting opiate. So, by taking the small pieces of sub you've been taking, they have helped to minimize the symptoms but that's because your receptors are nearly full with the sub. Once the sub starts to fall off the receptors, you will begin to feel withdrawal symptoms. The only way to make it easier is to do the proper taper so that the subs will slowly dissipate and your brain and body aren't shocked. I'm really sorry but this what I meant by saying that using the subs the way you are using them is just delaying the symptoms.

    I have been around this Forum for nearly eight years. During this time, I have seen people attempt a short taper and some of them managed to do it. But each and every time, they experienced symptoms when they stopped the subs even after only having used them for a few days. No. They weren't addicted to them but they were only blocking the withdrawal symptoms from their drug of choice.

    Just like Beef, I am a strong cold turkey advocate. Yes. The symptoms are nasty and it's a real tough time but the worst of the physical is over in about 5 days and then you'll be left feeling like you are getting over the flu. Whether you stop the subs or cold turkey, there will be a period of time of having trouble sleeping, a bit of anxiety and cravings but the way I look at it is that if you go cold turkey, the clock will begin to run after those first five days and in 2 or 3 weeks, everything is much, MUCH better. Look at it this way, the half life of H is less than 4 hours while the half life of subs, also an opiate, is between 36 and 72 hours. Just look at that difference a little pragmatically and you will be able to see that unless subs are used correctly, you could be creating a bigger mess. There is one current member who did a short taper from subs (Froggie) look for his thread and read it. I think he used subs for less than a week and then jumped two or three weeks ago. I just read a post of his a couple of days ago that he's considering getting back on the subs and finishing the taper correctly because he's still having a tough time with the symptoms. Read his thread and that will give you some insight into what you might expect.

    Whatever you choose to do, please know that all we want is to be able to help you. Sometimes that means that we will tell you things that you don't want to hear. Believe me, if there was a good way of doing a short taper, we would tell you how to do it and encourage you,. It just isn't our experience. None of us has even mentioned the benefit of a proper taper helping in terms of getting your feet beneath you so that hopefully you won't relapse. We are only addressing the physical effects that are left after using subs.

    Keep posting, Whatever you do, we'll support you and try to help.

    Peace,

    Cat.
    Lvg nghtmare likes this.

  12. #12
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    McDoodle

    I'm sorry about your current situation, it's a tough one to be sure but I can totally relate. Cat's advice to you is spot on and if there is any way you can pull off a longer taper I would certainly heed that advice and go for it. I've been down a nearly identical road as you both now and in the past. I have pulled off shorter tapers in the past but here I am trying again so how successful was I really? The times I was able to pull it off still required the subs to taper with and both prescription and non-prescription comfort meds such as chlonidine, xanax, sleeping meds, anti-diarrhea, vitamins, and possibly a few others. Even though it was a short taper it still required time off of work and time to secure the meds, something you don't seem to have available to you. Everyone responds differently to both the medications and w/d symptoms so the level of discomfort you are likely to experience is kinda up in the air and anyone's guess. For me, even with the comfort meds and time, I was able to come off my DOC and subs in a relatively short span of time but it was by no means painless.

    My current situation

    As I've said, we have been down nearly identical roads. I'm coming off a H habit of roughly the same span of time as yourself that peaked at nearly 2 grams per day, I'm a single father who cannot afford any length of time off work, I've both abused and had experiences with subs that left me not wanting to be on them for any length of time, and I only had a certain amount of subs available to me to taper with. Sound familiar? Soooo, I tapered down to the lowest possible dose of subs with what I had. I started way too high and took giants steps down daily, sometimes much more than half of the day before. The first few days were not so bad but as I approached the half-life of my higher starting dose I really started to feel the sizable drops I was making. I reached the last of my subs and taper and made the jump to nothing, all the while each day becoming more uncomfortable than the day before. For 6 or 7 days I toughed it out and went to work, raised my kid, met my commitments, and basically lived my life. It finally got to the point where I was feeling no different than if I had just gone c/t from 2 grams a day and let me tell you, it was not pleasant. I didn't give myself time to properly detox from my original habit or time for my body to adjust to the subs. All I really managed to do was to increasingly spread out my w/d over a span of time where I would have been already out of the woods if I had just gone c/t in the first place, and with that time I simply arrived to a place w/d symptom-wise that I would have been on day one c/t.

    What just happened here? I both wanted and needed that shorter taper but it didn't work out even close to what I was hoping for. So what now? I was feeling crummier than ever and still couldn't afford the time off work. The fear and experience of w/d is enough for a majority of people to relapse and go back to their DOC. Simply not an option for me, especially knowing that a proper taper with the subs most likely would have been my saving grace. So back to the subs I went. You mentioned that a longer taper or long term sub use is only to prevent relapse. There may be some truth to this but I cannot totally agree. A proper taper can be achieved in FAR LESS time than the stories you read on the net where people have been on these things for years, YEARS!! No way Jack! With a taper plan such as the one promoted here, with which Robert_325 has had so much success, you can simply step away from the subs at the end and move on with life ... painlessly. You will not become hopelessly addicted and still gain the time needed away from your DOC to learn to live life free from drugs, rewire your brain, deal with stresses, etc. and have a much greater chance of avoiding a relapse.

    Where do you go from here?

    I completely understand that you are on the last of your subs and don't really have the resources available to you to get more. Robert's plan might not seem like an option for you at this moment. You're running out of time and are understandably scared, I get that, honest. I won't beat a dead horse with this but I will say that if you can find a way to work Robert's plan it genuinely is your best course of action to move past your current situation and just be done. How much were you spending on your habit? If there was any way to take those same funds to see a sub dr. even to get just one script, that's what I would do. You wouldn't regret it.

    Now, if this still is not an option and you only have a small amount of sub left, your only available option may be an emergency taper. It won't be painless. What you would need to do is stop taking your subs until you feel the onset of w/d. When it becomes unmanageable take a smaller amount of your sub, less than 1 mg, until your w/d is gone or at least tolerable. Rinse and repeat until you are out of sub. Take a smaller amount only when your really need to and only enough for w/d to become tolerable again. This is by no means ideal and you are probably certainly going to experience some level of w/d when you are out of subs. How much and for how long is hard to say, everyone is different.

    I know this may not be the answer you are looking for but given what you have to work with it's all I can offer.

    I truly wish you the best of luck and hope this somehow all works out for you. Please don't hesitate to post back with questions, comments, or concerns.

    Good luck to you and let us know how you make out.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 11-22-2017 at 02:04 AM.

  13. #13
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Also, what I meant to add but didn't, is if you are going to attempt an emergency taper type of thing, when taking the smaller amounts of sub in an attempt to beat back your w/d .... give each piece roughly an hour in between. Don't just slam them back to back, they take some time to do their thing!

    Good luck!

  14. #14
    Mcdoodle413 is offline New Member
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    [deleted - swearing]
    Last edited by Anonymous; 11-22-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  15. #15
    froggy_069 is offline Member
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    Mcdoodle

    How are things? I hope you are holding up okay.

    I caught a quick glimpse of your last post before it was deleted. Did you mention something about taking some kind of pill and you are feeling slightly better? How did you make out with the last of your sub? Your mind and body are screaming out right now for more opiates and this will be the true test of your willpower and desire to get through this and beat this thing! I know you can do this, all you have to do right now is really truly want it!

    I'm going to take a guess that you are out of subs by this point. It's important to know how much of this is mental. Try to get out of your own head and do not worry about how you are going to feel or how bad this may or may not get - you can honestly make yourself feel worse by doing that. You already knew that you were going to experience some level of w/d and discomfort ... you did your best with what you had and what's done is done. Remember that the point of all this to be done with the junk and get the opiates out of your system. Keeping pills around during this process is never ever a good idea. With today being a holiday you will be tempted to take another just to get through the day with your family and that is enough to get the ball rolling and you can very quickly undo everything you have been working to accomplish and fall back into your old ways. I've been there so many times and it happens so so easily.

    Did you get any extra days off work for the holiday? We both know that time is not always on your side so if you happen to have a 3 or 4 day weekend this week you really need to take advantage of this time. Taking pills or any other kind opiate is basically resetting your clean time clock and starting over ... we don't want to do that! Things will get a little worse before they start getting better, the first 3 days is going to be the most difficult, it's the nature of the beast and oh so important to get them out of the way now while you have the time.

    Have you heard of the Thomas Recipe? https://www.drugs.com/forum/featured...ent-35169.html Look it over and try to get as many things as you can from the list. Staying hydrated, eating healthy, and some form of exercise is important right now. Not jumping jacks or anything like that, force yourself to be up and about and maybe get some household chores done. You mentioned that you are a single mother and that comes with a some form of commitment that is unavoidable and although it may not seem like it now, it could work in your favor. For example, my little one is only 3 and unable to take care of herself so I have no choice but to be up and about looking after her. Lying around or staying in bed feeling bad is not going to help, move around and do things as much as you can. Convince yourself it's just a bad cold or flu and get on with things.

    Don't stress this, just deal with things as they come up and keep moving forward. I promise that this gets better and you will start feeling better soon, you just need to make it over this hump. You want to be clean and live a normal life, and you can. You will surely feel worse if you fall back into your habit and the lifestyle that comes with it.

    Try to find some good in this and enjoy the time with your family this Thanksgiving!

    Keep posting and let us know how you are doing!
    Beefaroni7272 and Catrina like this.

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