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No trouble tapering - just can't make the jump!
  1. #1
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Default No trouble tapering - just can't make the jump!

    New member seeking advice, support and encouragement. Became an addict over 17 years ago when a knee injury requiring routine surgery began the nightmare with addiction. Pills given for post-op pain were quickly abused leading to harder/stronger drugs, and a life spinning completely out of control. Everything gone from the house, car, and job, to family, friends and a great relationship. A very common story.

    Enter Methadone which also turned into a real problem. Abused it too, before deciding to make the switch to Suboxone. I tapered the Methadone down to 70mgs, got in a big rush trying to induct and you guessed it - precipitated withdrawals, which made me deathly ill. Tried yet again at 40mgs, bad move and again PW's - which take the life right out of you. Nearly gave up, but after LOTS of reading on the subject (duh) I tapered to 10mgs, used a Cows Chart, and success was made. My induction dose of sub was 8mgs, which I realize is very high, but it's honestly what it took to stabilize based on my tolerance level. Started with a 2mg dose then took 1mg every hour. Methadone was a tough one switching to Suboxone, but the procedure taught me a valuable lesson, while providing plenty of experience with the process.

    After nearly 9 months (too long I know) I began to taper, reducing quickly at first, then slowing considerably. I know all about the 25% - 4-day plan widely used here and how it has proven to work for so many. I congratulate all that have made it and are now free! I used a similar version of that same plan changing things to work in my favor. Once at 3mg my reductions were .25mg (not 25%). That seemed simpler than figuring, cutting and worrying about fractions of doses. No disrespect to those that use the 25% method. It was easier (for me) to reduce in .25mg increments. My reductions were every 3 days, sometimes 4.

    I've been at .25mg almost 2 weeks and completely stuck. Can't believe it. I say to myself - today is the day of dosing - but take it anyway. I need a push, probably a shove to either taper lower or jump and get it over with. I'm second-guessing myself and scared how I might feel entirely off the sub. Reading too many horror stories? Afraid to lose my crutch? Scared of relapse? Maybe all those reasons, I'm not entirely certain. I just can't seem to get motivated or in the right frame of mind to take that next, and perhaps final step. It's fear of the unknown that's keeping me from moving forward. I sure could use some persuading to get it done. This is crazy. I feel like a failure. I'm terrified to call it quits. I want to be clean more than anything, but even that motivation isn't doing it right now. Thanks for any responses.

  2. #2
    whatsinaname is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi Randy,

    Welcome to the forum. I think the jump is the scariest part for most of us. It can be done, and you CAN do it. I would suggest going down further to .125 and then once stable begin skipping days. You can skip one day and then two and then three and then make the jump. That may be an easier transition for you given your current fears.

    I can tell by your post that you want to be free. You can be free but you have to dig your heels in and just push through it. Its hard I know. I was in your same position not too long ago. I now have over a year off of Subs and Im so happy I pushed through and made the decision to live an opiate free life.

    >> suggest you cut your doses the night before, in the morning instead of caving and taking that .25 dose just take the .125. You can do it!!!!!! Don't read the horror stories. There are many success stories here. If you look on the sub boards especially you will see many who have successfully tapered off subs.

    Best of luck to you!
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  3. #3
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    What's advice is spot on. You are at a point where you've taken something for so long that it's truly scary NOT to take anything. Push it down to the .125 mark, get stable and start skipping days. NA isn't such a long stretch either as you will meet with people who have been right where you are. You might also want to post in the suboxone board. Best of luck to you.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  4. #4
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Thanks to you both for the responses. Your insight and suggestions are both solid. The lowering of dose to .125mg is something that I have actually considered. I hadn't given much thought to the skipping of days, but that does sound like it could be very beneficial and I will definitely consider it.

    I was frightened to post my "problem" as it isn't as severe or urgent as many others here, but I'm having the most difficult time stopping the sub. Iloerose said it perfectly - "you are at a point where you've taken something for so long that it's truly scary NOT to take anything". That's it in a nutshell, my safety net (sub) won't be available any longer when I stop and that is really keeping me from making a move. I literally panic just thinking about stopping. I'm so upset with myself.

    Whatsinaname - You have over one year off the subs and i congratulate you! That is amazing and I only hope to one day be able to make that claim too. Sounds so far off, but as you said you were in my same position not long ago. I know it's doable.

    I'm going to do everything in my power to lower my dose to .125mg tomorrow, well later this morning now as it's after midnight. I usually dose around 10 am so I will cut my .25mg pieces in half and keep telling myself that it's the same as taking the .25mg dose and see how that goes. If all goes well I will try the skipping days after a few days. I'm going to give this my best effort and honest shot. I will also check out the sub boards. Your posts are appreciated!

  5. #5
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    No, your problem isn't less severe, you are addressing something we're all afraid of: sub, c/t, whatever and that's "What will my world be like w/o some substance?" THERE IS NOT ONE OF US WHO WAS NOT RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE WITH THIS. It is doable. Post in the Suboxone Board. You can do this. What you are experiencing are the head games. You need to figure something to do to keep yourself occupied. Get out and take a walk: whatever you do, you need to fight that "head game". Remember the reality is always better than we think it is.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  6. #6
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    I've been reading in the sub boards and the threads are very inspiring. I think it would be of great help to find someone at the same point as I am, ready to jump, and feed off each other while encouraging the other along. If anyone here wants to "team up" please don't hesitate to chime in here.

    Ok, this morning I DID split my dose in half and only took .125mg for the first time. Have to tell you that felt like a huge victory. I have to also admit that the urge was there to take that other half, but I didn't do it and quickly went outside to work in the yard and garden. The thoughts disappeared and I was able to get out of my own head, at least for now. You were right-on Iloerose!

    So as of today - game on! I'm really gonna do this and I will be completely clean soon. Your words Iloerose are very straightforward, and that is exactly what I needed. I'm on my way now! Thank you.
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  7. #7
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Probably all in my head, but I swear I can feel the dose reduction to .125mg from my recent .25mg doses. I feel lethargic, a small headache, belly issues, and no appetite for most of the day. I'm nearly certain I'm being challenged by the subs, but I'm holding on and won't take any more today.

    More mind games I'm sure. I'll continue to fight back.
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  8. #8
    whatsinaname is offline Platinum Member
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    Yep, it's a mental battle more than anything. Just keep pushing. You can do it!

    There will be some symptoms. That is normal. You've been on subs for quite some time. Try not to sit and think about it too much. Do something you enjoy and try to take your mind off of the taper

    Also exercise is so key..... You need to get your natural endorphins going again. Try going for a walk, even if it's just around the block. Push yourself to exercise even though it's probably the last thing you want to do. You will feel better afterwards!

    Thank you for the congrats and kind words.

    Just remember to take it one day at a time and you will get to where you need to be.

  9. #9
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Not much more to say than what has been said. Give it a few days. Make sure you are exercising and think about taking some good mineral and vitamin supplements with magnesium. That will help. I'm glad getting out and doing something helped you. Keep going. You've got this.

    Peace,

    Iloerose
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  10. #10
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Thanks again for your posts, whatsinaname and Iloerose. It's a comfort to have the both of you continue to offer your help. It is truly appreciated.

    I'm sorry to let you guys down, but I have to admit I caved last night. Let myself down too, big time. My mind was working overtime and I not only took the other half of sub (.125mg) I took a whole .25mg dose which made it MORE than I have been taking each day. I took a total of .375mg yesterday.

    So I didn't lower my dose at all yesterday, I actually RAISED it! What an idiot I am. I'm so upset at myself. It was ridiculous to do that and I know it.

    Back to square one today I guess. Going to do my best to take only .125mg again and STICK with it this time. I want off this stuff so bad, but it's not that easy I'm definitely finding out. Thanks again and sorry for wasting your time.

  11. #11
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    You're welcome, Randy. You didn't let anyone down. God only knows how many relapses I've gone through. You've had a long hard journey. What you're doing is the hardest thing that you will ever do in your life and the most important. So, it's important to not guilt your self. My councilor has a saying for this "Don't should all over of yourself." There is someone on the sub board who dropped from .25 to .183 or you can go to .20. or you can stay with your original plan. It takes longer for someone who has been on subs long term to come off. Totally normal. You have to do what is going to give you success. Go to the suboxone board and there is a person there on .183 who may be able to talk about how to cut the strips. Also, post on alexnt's theread. If you're finding out that you can't get to that .125mg. and stick it out, try a lesser drop, no problems with that. You can do this.

    Peace,

    Iloerose
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  12. #12
    volvoguy is offline Banned
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    Fear of suboxone PAWS can be debilitating, read my post I just made, I am 10 days on .25. I still have like 15 Subs because I only needed 5 to get where I am now. I plan on selling mine or just stop taking them tommorrow, however a self administered UA showed my body is still processing the metabolites of the methadone dose I took 10 days ago. PI's are the worst and you got through that, that means you are committed and cand do this. Dont psyche yourself out. Make sure you take the expanded thomas recipe for the next few months as it will be awhile before the malaise and sleeplessness reside.

  13. #13
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Volvo guy you just posted you were at .50mg. If you are at day 10 of only .25mg. yeah, jump. My point is to be precise and to be careful, because if you jump at too high a dose it won't be PAWS but straight on c/t w/d. PAWS is a totally different creature. It's often lethargy, depression that hang on after getting totally clean: that is normal and to be expected as you've let another substance provide substances that your brain produces naturally and has stopped producing: You can help this process through exercise and diet. Supplements help and if you are wondering about supplements hit up the Suboxone board and read about some of the supplements that people take to help along the way.



    Peace,

    Iloerose
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-29-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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  14. #14
    volvoguy is offline Banned
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    Thanks I am doing the expanded Thomas recipe, and I give it most of the credit. I just know from experience with 'done and bone, that its best to do a 21 day or less taper. I used to get on MMT go all week go up 10 mg a day, then take my take home and taper that off and not go back after that. At least the 'done/bone kept me off of drugs and pills. I have known for awhile that One can detox with a very small number of subs from some pretty big habits. Just dont start at more than 4-8 mg, and start going doen from the very first day. Thats what worked for me.
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  15. #15
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Thanks for the comments you guys.

    I was able to take only the .125mg of sub today and it wasn't nearly as bad as it was yesterday. Hopefully tomorrow will be the same and I'm on my way! I really need someone to push me through this so I don't backslide again.

    Today is day 1 at .125mg. Tomorrow we shall see how it goes.

    Thanks again for the support.
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  16. #16
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Day 2 at .125mg as I just took my dose. A few more days at this dose and I think I'll give the day skipping a shot. I was pleasantly suprised at how I felt yesterday! Hope today provides no issues and I can get this done. This stuff is so much a mental thing. If you can make yourself believe it's possible that's more than half the battle.

  17. #17
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Keep right on the .125. Doing Great!!! Hang tough, yup addiction is purely mental. Once we get our brains back around to thinking again, we can use that space to think about what's important, instead of scoring. Hang tough, you can do this. Saw you looking into the sub boards, that's great: some good threads.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  18. #18
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Thank you yet again Iloerose. You and whatsinaname are keeping me going full steam ahead and I truly appreciate that. Without your replies I might not be in such good shape right now. If not for the two of you I know I would still be stuck at .25mg daily. I am so grateful.

    Today is day 2 at .125mg of sub coming to an end. It certainly feels great to be in this position. My plan is to stay at this dose for 2 more days and if I continue feeling as I am now the time will be right for me to use the day skipping schedule and then make my final jump. I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    I'm really doing this!!!

  19. #19
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    YOU are doing great!!! Yup there is a light at the end of this tunnel and as Robert used to say "You never have to use again." You are really, really doing this.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  20. #20
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Thanks Iloerose! I'm sure glad you're keeping me going.

    This is day 3 at .125mg dose. I definitely felt some symptoms in the late afternoon, and had problems sleeping through the night waking several times. Also had a headache most of the day, followed by some sweats. Not terrible symptoms, but I know I'm in for a fight as I get closer and closer to that finish line.

    I'm impressed that so many members seem to be friends. The amount of posting back and forth checking on each other is amazing! I'm going to post more as time allows on different threads hoping to get additional responses from those near the same point I'm at right now. It would really help.

    I couldn't get past .25mg on my own and was completely stuck there as you know. But this forum and you in particular keep me responsible and it makes me WANT to succeed!

    Not feeling my best right now, but no way am I going to backtrack again. Not gonna happen!

  21. #21
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Wow, Randy, thanks for the kind words. First of all, don't expect the worst. Many people experience symptoms upon dropping. Normal. Totally. Before you start skip days, make sure you are stable: little to no symptoms of w/d. That may take a few days longer, but it's important for your success as the sub leaves your body. This is not a sign of weakness, but a matter of how the sub works and how long the half life is. Don't hurry, follow your body, you've been on sub a long time.

    Here is a list of things you can use as comfort meds:

    Immodium, if you need it.
    Gatorade: helps with cramping
    Hyland's Restful Leg or Calme's Forte
    Plenty of water and good fruit juices: STAY AWAY from energy drinks
    Potassium
    B-12
    A good mineral supplement, magnesium
    vitamin supplement
    EXERCISE: this gets your natural endorphines producing again, so important even a little walk around.
    Serene L-theanine/ valarian root either for anxiety.
    melatonin or other OTC sleep aid
    Lethargy: L-tyrosine with B-6

    Treat the symptoms as they occur. As Robert_325 said: Getting clean is a process not an event. Just make sure you are stable before you start skipping days. HANG TOUGH.

    Peace,

    Iloerose
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  22. #22
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    That list of items is extremely helpful, Iloerose. I've seen you post it to others, but never thought I would require any of them. Boy was I wrong. RLS and sweats kept me awake most of the night. The lack of sleep is causing energy issues and brain fog, and my work is suffering the last couple of days. That RLS sure is maddening. I'm getting the bulk of those vitamins/supplements today. Some I already have. Thanks for posting it yet again for me!

    I hear you on being stable before skipping or jumping. Only makes sense to be at a point of being ready and feeling good before that next step. I don't think I'm anywhere near ready to skip, especially jump right now. My plan is on cruise control right now.

    Today is day 4 at .125mg and I had planned to begin the skip tomorrow, but I'm gonna have to wait. I know it would be a mistake to push forward. To be completely honest I want to take more sub. The brain makes you believe if you take that extra piece everything will be golden. The mental aspect of this is enourmous to the extreme. I have to put all my extra sub in a different place because it's too easy to look at it sitting there and not take more. I take out what I need for the next day and that is it!

    I have to continue telling myself I'm not weak, or a failure for not being able to progress or jump right now. I consider myself a tough guy, but this stuff can bring you to your kness quite quickly.

    Guess overall I'm doing ok, but I know it would only take a second to take more sub and be right back where I was and lose the last 3 days. Thanks Iloerose.

  23. #23
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    This is the most important and the hardest thing you will ever do in your lifetime, bar none. As someone used to say you are a true warrior. People run marathons, triathlons, and do all kinds of heroic stuff: in my mind an addict who can get clean and stay clean is tougher than anyone else. Life is a battle on it's own terms sometimes, we have addiction to complicate living life on life's terms. Getting clean is the toughest battle as it is a fight for your very life. Stay the course. Keep going strong!

    Peace,

    Iloerose
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  24. #24
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Give us a shout-out! Hope your day is going well!

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  25. #25
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Really struggling today. Work was extra-tuff and symptoms made it very difficult to concentrate. I picked up most of the items you suggested earlier that I didn't have. Hope they help. My mind is telling me to take more sub and everything will be ok. Trying to fight that urge right now. Plenty of shakes and sweats. I'll get back later.

  26. #26
    volvoguy is offline Banned
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    Since sleep can be difficult I suggest adding some l-tryptophan, kava kava, 5htp and melatonin it can help restoring sleep, which is often the last symptom to leave. Avoid alcohol and caffeine as they both will disrupt sleep. Often people try using caffeine during the day for energy, they remain lethargic during the day, then cant sleep at night. Also opiate addicts bodies require only half the protein intake of non users. The reason is dopamine, serotonin, epinephrine, and endorphins all use amino acids as building blocks, and when we are using this process isnt occuring. Double your protein intake, and or take amino acids. Exercise is so crucial, force yourself to do whatever you can.

  27. #27
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy35 View Post
    Really struggling today. Work was extra-tuff and symptoms made it very difficult to concentrate. I picked up most of the items you suggested earlier that I didn't have. Hope they help. My mind is telling me to take more sub and everything will be ok. Trying to fight that urge right now. Plenty of shakes and sweats. I'll get back later.
    Randy its to late now since you have been at .125 now for 4 days but you are probably struggling since you reduced by 50 % going from .25 to .125. You would have been better off reducing to around .18 but whats done is done. Since you reduced your dose by 50% you might to make your landing a little softer by staying there a couple more days now before you start the skipping days and instead of skipping whole days at a time try skipping at a slower pace then whole days. Like just keep adding up hours between doses instead of whole days. Example would be when it comes time to skip day 1 instead of going 48 hrs between doses try 36 hrs then next doses just keep adding more hours between doses. Entirely up to you of course but just thought it might be of help to you. My best wishes to you.

    Alex
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  28. #28
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Thanks for the responses. It's positively appreciated - and needed.

    Volvoguy - I will give the items you suggested for sleep a shot. Last night was another sleepless night and the lack of good sleep is really wearing me down. That along with the RLS are the 2 worst symptoms, at least for me they are. As far as the exercise goes that's not a problem. I'm a gym rat and work out several times a week. I also walk or jog around the block to help relieve work day stress. I stay away from alcohol and rarely drink any caffeine. Despite shoving tons of drugs in my body over the years I have remained relatively healthy. Thanks for your post.

    Alex - I see you posting great advice and suggestions to many others and it's a privilege to have you offer me some advice also.

    I realize I reduced this last time by 50%, and you're right, that could be the source of my symptoms. But I also reduced by that same amount a time or two during my taper. Once I got down to 3mg I didn't reduce by the 25% as the "Robert Plan" suggests and instead made each of my dose reductions .25mg purely for the sake of easiness to get away from those tiny fractions of doses. For example I went from 3mg to 2.75 to 2.50 to 2.25 to 2mg then to 1.75mg and so on until I was at .25mg when I joined asking for help because I was having problems jumping. I had planned to jump at the .25mg dose, but was stuck for several reasons. Iloerose suggested lowering the dose and I did. She DID NOT tell me to go down to .125mg, that was MY decision to be clear.

    So going from .50mg to .25mg as I did in my previous reductions was also 50% and maybe it's all catching up to me now? A few of the reductions were LESS than 25% also so perhaps it all evened out, I don't know and it's difficult to figure.

    I hear you loud and clear about remaining on this .125mg dose a few days longer Alex. I have no choice because I'm no where near ready to skip or jump. And your idea of taking less time with the skips is a brilliant suggestion. Instead of skipping that first full day or 24 hours I could just skip maybe 12 hours. But if I did that I could just see myself getting mixed up with the times and take more sub than I should be taking and completely mess the entire skip up. It's a great thought and I won't entirely rule it out.

    I was thinking that as long as I'm suffering right now why not jump and suffer the same? I mean if I'm going to be having symptoms for a while why not be adding up clean days doing it? It's a thought I'm seriously considering and would like to get your input on that, or anyone else that may want to comment. Many thanks Alex for responding. Hope to hear from you again.

    Day 5 at .125mg and really not feeling well. The lack of sleep followed by a variety of symptoms is also causing major anxiety issues. My brain is tugging hard wanting me to take more sub, but I'm fighting that urge as hard as possible. Back to work for now - Uggg!

    I WILL WIN THIS WAR!!! I REALLY WANT TO BE CLEAN AND FREE!!!
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  29. #29
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    You will win this war. Alex is a great guy! and he knows his stuff. If you have a question about whether or not to jump or continue your taper, I'd go to his thread and ask what he thinks about it. I really don't have an answer for that. You are certainly a warrior. Stay Strong.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  30. #30
    davepeerson is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Randy,
    Great job so far!! I know it's not easy, but you WILL BEAT THE BEAST!! You sound like you REALLY DO want it, and believe ME....That is what it takes!! That being said.....It is VERY MUCH a mind game as well!! Just like you said....your brain keeps telling you...just another little piece, and we won't have to feel Sooo bad today...NO!! Sometimes it's crucial to just get through those few minutes of the mind thing!!
    As for ME...when I got MY doses so low, I was feeling pretty sick anyway......I just JUMPED!! Maybe it would have been better to keep trying to taper, but I just couldn't....So I jumped at .50 x2 a day!! So, in my case....considering where I was....You are VERY LOW right now....Lower than I could go....although my situation was different....I had been on them for over 3 years....and that dose of .50 x 2 a day had been going on for quite some time!! Anyway....you do what you need to do.....I would suggest jumping Soon....but that's just MY OPINION!! Whatever works best for you!! WE ALL want the same result....FREEDOM from the BEAST!! Keep up the Awesome job....Don't quit the fight....And keep US posted....I am Soooo Pulling for you!!!! Stay Strong My Friend!!.Perseverance...Move forward with faith and determination...and achieve success and fulfillment!!
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