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About to switch to Suboxone and scared
  1. #1
    Batting1000 is offline Banned
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    Default About to switch to Suboxone and scared

    Hey guys!

    I've been reading this forum for many years. Probably for all the wrong reasons mostly. First, I want to start with a pre-emotive thank you for all the great posts I've read over the years.

    I am beginning a journey to be clean. I have been seeing a detox specialists because of my hydrocodone/oxycodone habit which has now topped out at about 200mg a day between them both (mostly all written by a legitimate pain managemtent doctor). Let me first say that I think its not legitimate and although the pain of not being able to get out of bed because I can't move pales in comparison with the pain that my addiction has brought to my life.

    I've often called my MRI a ticket to hell as it was my pass to getting all of the meds that have slowly but definitely stolen me as a person. Numbed me to the point of not feeling a lot more than just pain. These meds do it real sneaky like. I have been taking these meds for probably about a year and a half and in that time they have transformed my life for the worse. If you are lucky enough to be reading this before a major addiction, believe me you can and will get there. Get out now. Read these forums. This is just a small sample. Don't build your own prison.

    So I'm terrorfied of withdrawls and can't do cold turkey. I am seeing a highly recommended outpatient detox specialist who has decided to put me on Suboxone film and I am supposed to begin today. He told me of about a 3-4 month plan to get me on and off of Subxone ending with a .25 detox and a special mix of non-narcotic meds to bridge the detox.

    He is going to induce me I believe at 1mg an hour of which sounds like a lot from what I'm reading.

    Also I'm nervous about going into withdrawls from the oxy/hydro because I am only in minor withdrawal from those and I understand that the Suboxone can send you into percepitated withdrawal if taken before the oxy/hydro gets off your receptors.

    He doesn't sound too concerned and that I am in just minor withdrawal seems good enough for him to begin induction phase of the Suboxone.

    Anyway, I am scared. I am scared for every reason one would be before this. I have a wife and a 3 year old daughter and I want my life back.

    Thanks for any thoughts.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-09-2015 at 01:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey there Batting. Welcome to you! Finding a sub doctor that has an ounce of wisdom about how subs work and especially how to prescribe them is one tough job, and nearly impossible! Most all of these guys place their patients on huge doses and intend on keeping them there for years including the rest of their lives. Your doctor sounds like they at least have some idea how to approach this - which Is definitely in your favor.

    I suspect his inducing you at 1mg per hour is soley in the interest of time. He probably wants it done as quickly as possible. Guessing on my part, but that does sound reasonable. The induction IS the most important part to this I assure you. It could take a couple days or more to get the dose right for you. And the doses given should depend on the person, their habit...how large or small, and the time spent abusing drugs. I might begin at 1mg for you, but may suggest lower doses from then on as in .25mg to .50mg until stable with no wd symptoms.

    You MUST, let me say that again, you MUST be in moderate to severe wd's before taking that first dose of sub. We use the Cows Scale (clinical opiate withdrawal scale) to determine when it's safe to induct. Numbers are given to a variety of symptoms and added up. Once you reach an honest score of 26 or higher it's time to go. Taking the sub too soon may be your worst nightmare if you go into PW's (precipitated withdrawals) which is like regular wd's x 10!!! Avoid that at all costs by using the cows. Here's the Cows link -

    http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_...flow_sheet.pdf

    Score honestly ok. And heres the link to the sub plan used here -

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone...apy-66109.html

    Read it carefully and ask all the questions you need. Lots of us here fully experienced in this deal and want to help you do this right. Do it right and you only have to do it once! Good luck and keep posting.

    -Randy
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-09-2015 at 03:21 PM.
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  3. #3
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Glad you've begun the induction safely. Writing you 2 days worth is ridiculous. I could see writing maybe a weeks worth at first, but a couple days is him being on a power trip it sounds like. I would tell him about the money issues and how inconvenienced you are going back and forth to the office so much. Maybe he'll loosen up a bit and let you come back every month.

    2mg is a pretty hefty dose, but I would be surprised if you didn't require a little more. Here's what I would suggest you do....Begin taking .25mg doses every 60 - 90 minutes until stable. You want to be on the absolute lowest dose possible and taking smaller doses will ensure that happens. You don't want to take a single mg more than is needed.

    As far as that cows score it's always suggested getting to at least a 26. Any lower is purely taking a chance. I'm glad it worked out for you and glad you didn't have to experience PWD's. I've been through it twice and I was sicker than I've ever been in my life ending up in the ER. I know that particular cow says a 5 is ok, but if you were to take a chance and induct at that low a number and went into PWD's you'd understand my concern. I went past a 26 the 3rd time I tried to induct to be absolutely certain I didn't have it happen again.

    Keep posting your progress. The dose may need to be tweaked until tomorrow or so to find the right dose for you. I would guess somewhere between 3-4mg would be about right. That's about the average for most.

    -Randy
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  4. #4
    Batting500 is offline New Member
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    Thanks Randy!

    Ugh, I just wrote the longest response on my phone and hit "cancel" by accident instead of "submit".

    Firstly, this is obviously "batting1000" which was for some reason banned permanently by an administrator, presumably for the post you responded to since it has been removed. Haven't the foggiest why it would have been offensive but I was banned permanently for "illegal activity".

    Yeah, the doctor is a bit on a power trip I think. He's highly regarded though by both some cleaned up former addicts and by a couple doctors. He can be on a power trip all day if he can help with getting me clean and sober.

    I convinced him to switch the induction to 1mg rather than 2 at a time based on the things I've read on this forum. Because of that, and what you wrote previously, on the last phone consultation with him I asked what level he thinks I'll end up at, and he thinks from 8-12. I told him from the anecdotal info I've seen here that that sounded rather high and he asked me to put my faith in him and so I am a little torn.

    His plan is to get me off completely in about 3-4 months with a .25 final detox at the end. I know you are going to say that is way high but what should I do? I'm currently at 3mg by the way and I am still not feeling too great but I understand I just got started. My usage before was at about 200mg by the end (yesterday).

    It's odd that I am the one that is being more conservative yet he is afraid to write me an amount that makes sense. I certainly am not planning on or want to take this medication to get a good feeling from it. Hell, I didn't even do that with my other meds. I just have severe back injury but the pain of the meds are much worse.

    Please mods, don't ban me. I will listen to whatever rules I might be breaking. Certainly have no idea why I was banned from the deleted post. I am in here reading other people's success stories and hoping to add one. My only interest is in that of living a clean life and the people here are amazing. I truly have not a clue as to what "illegal activity" was in the removed post but if you tell me, I will be cautious.

    Thanks Randy!!!

    Adam

  5. #5
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Geez....I have no clue why you were banned. Happens here and we never know why. Usually when it happens the member creates another screen name and that gets banned too. Perhaps your appeal will be heard and taken into account. I hope you're allowed to remain.

    Ok, I'm gonna ask you to trust the members of this forum instead of some doctor that thinks he knows how subs are designed to work properly. We have used this drug and I'll bet the farm he has not! These sub doctors only have to take an 8 hour online course and test afterwards to get their special DEA number and they are then allowed to begin handing it out. The drug reps come in and tell these doctors to prescribe huge doses and keep patients on it for years including life!!! It's nothing but a money-making venue for everyone!!! Most members here that's been on sub therapy could pass that same test. Fact.

    I don't know anyone that requires 12mg of sub. Absoultely no one. I was on very high doses of methadone for years and switched to subs and it only took me a total pf 8mgs to get completely stable. We have members on 400-600mgs of Oxy and most get stable on 4-6mg. How does he know what dose you'll need before you get there? Answer = he doesn't.

    You need to take small doses of .25mg (in your case) after the initial 1mg dose until you're stable with little to no symptoms just as I said before. The object is to induct at the lowest effective dose. If he puts you on 8-12mg how would you ever know if 3-4 might have been fine??? Understand my point?

    I certainly wouldn't be telling him you're listening to a bunch of addicts on an online forum. Read around here for a while and you'll quickly discover everything I'm telling you is correct. I've done this for a while now and really familiar with how this works. Up to you of course what you do in the end. I just hate to see you on 12mg when much less certainly would have sufficed.

    -Randy
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-09-2015 at 09:03 PM.
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  6. #6
    Batting500 is offline New Member
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    Thanks again Randy. My inclination is to listen to the peoole here, yourself included.

    At the end of the day, if I tell him I feel fine right now, he won't tell me to take another one and I'm currently at 4 with about a 200mg habit before today.

    So although I definitely could feel more comfortable than I currently am, will I get more comfortable in the next couple days of remaining at 4?

    I've read the forum over many time when it comes to Suboxone. It almost made me decide to do CT instead of Suboxone but I took the "whimpy" way out I guess.

    I agree that users understand more. I have a father who is a doctor as well so I'm getting it from two barrels as when I tell him my thoughts he says "listen to the doctor, not the bloggers". I consider myself an intelligent person and again my inclination is to believe you over him but I am also dealing with him so whatever I need to do to get clean, I will do and if it means blind faith, I will try my best to have a little vision with my blindness.

    After all, he can't MAKE me go to 8-12 and if I'm feeling better before that number, I will not go up. But again, not feeling perfect yet, and if it means not feeling perfect for a couple days, fine, but if it means not feeling perfect for a month or two, different story. He promises me I will be drug free if I follow his method in no more than 4 months and relatively painlessly.

    This is a rare case where I believe the inmates should be running the asylum. We know more about these meds than the docs do by virtue of our use. That said, they do understand chemistry, behavior and tbings like that better than a laymen.

    You are so wonderful to take the time to post this stuff for my benefit. Reading these forums has boosted my faith in humanity and there is not much more comradary than an addict to addict and I appreciate it more than I can put in words!

    ~Adam
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-09-2015 at 09:44 PM.

  7. #7
    Batting500 is offline New Member
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    So this next post of mine is because I am sort of using this thread as my own personal journal which hopefully, by the grace of God and the Universe will end up with me completely free of all opiates.

    I have taken 4mgs total since 1:30 today during the induction process of my Suboxone therapy and I feel AMAZING. When I say amazing, I probably feel at about 80% but I for the first time in what feels like ever am not craving my other prescription pills that I used to only have about a 1 hour window of not craving, if that.

    It has somewhat lifted the fog and I am looking at my daughter and crying happy tears knowing that a year of only being probably less than half in the game is coming to an end and that she will be getting 100% of her father soon.

    I don't know if it's psychological, since it's only been 24 hours since the ingestion of my last fast acting opiate and that I am still taking an opiate in the form of Suboxone but I am telling you without a doubt, I feel better. This feeling of a happy future is better than any high or any pain relief that I have received from my other meds. And not for nothing, I am actually getting better pain relief right now from the Suboxone than I got from my high doses of Norco and Oxycodone regimented daily.

    Thank you so much Randy for your days worth of good advice and you are responsible for most likely keeping me at the very least a lower dose, and maybe only 4mg (which by some people's account is high) but much lower than the 8-12mgs he said I would be at. I WILL NOT take more than is necessary and if I can stay at this amount and feel this well, I'm done raising. We shall see.

    Come on life, I'm ready!
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  8. #8
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Good morning Adam. I'm overjoyed you put some trust in us with your induction. We see your same situation all the time. In most cases the doctor wants the patient on even higher doses such as 16-24mgs!!! It's sickening to us because they just don't realize what they're doing to the trusting patient. And the higher the dose the harder it is to get off. Listening to these sub doctors can hurt more than help.

    Anyway glad 4mg made you feel great! I had a strong feeling 3-4mg would be good for you. I suggest remaining on that dose for at least 4 days or longer. See how you're feeling after 4 days and if still feeling great then it's ok to reduce by 25% down to 3mg and follow the same procedure. Keep repeating the same process until you're down to as low as possible. I always suggest going to .25mg or even lower. I went to .125mg myself. We'll discuss that later.

    Another thing to consider is splitting your current dose. Some do, some don't. Taking 2 doses instead of one has it's benefits sometimes. This can be such a mental thing with addicts wanting more drugs more often. Taking 2 doses can have a mental "boost" to things helping to overcome those feelings. Never take more than 2 doses because that's pure addict behavior and not ever needed.

    You could take 2mg in the am and 2mg in the pm about 8-12 hours after the first dose. It's extremely important to take the same amount at the same times each day. That keeps a steady and level amount of sub in your system all the time, which keeps you feeling better.

    Now with all that said it's even better, maybe best to just take one dose. Take your sub in the morning hour when you get up and around and forget it until the following day. With the very long half life a single dose WILL hold you at least 24 hours. Totally up to you what your decision is.

    You're very welcome for the help and support. I'm sure others will be here soon with other ideas. Might have been better to have your thread in the Suboxone forum as that has much more traffic than this forum. If you decide to move there i would suggest copying and pasting all these posts there also so others know what's been going on.

    Take care Adam and keep posting. Yep, use this as your journal as I and others have. It really helps!

    -Randy
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  9. #9
    Batting500 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy35 View Post
    Good morning Adam. I'm overjoyed you put some trust in us with your induction. We see your same situation all the time. In most cases the doctor wants the patient on even higher doses such as 16-24mgs!!! It's sickening to us because they just don't realize what they're doing to the trusting patient. And the higher the dose the harder it is to get off. Listening to these sub doctors can hurt more than help.

    Anyway glad 4mg made you feel great! I had a strong feeling 3-4mg would be good for you. I suggest remaining on that dose for at least 4 days or longer. See how you're feeling after 4 days and if still feeling great then it's ok to reduce by 25% down to 3mg and follow the same procedure. Keep repeating the same process until you're down to as low as possible. I always suggest going to .25mg or even lower. I went to .125mg myself. We'll discuss that later.

    Another thing to consider is splitting your current dose. Some do, some don't. Taking 2 doses instead of one has it's benefits sometimes. This can be such a mental thing with addicts wanting more drugs more often. Taking 2 doses can have a mental "boost" to things helping to overcome those feelings. Never take more than 2 doses because that's pure addict behavior and not ever needed.

    You could take 2mg in the am and 2mg in the pm about 8-12 hours after the first dose. It's extremely important to take the same amount at the same times each day. That keeps a steady and level amount of sub in your system all the time, which keeps you feeling better.

    Now with all that said it's even better, maybe best to just take one dose. Take your sub in the morning hour when you get up and around and forget it until the following day. With the very long half life a single dose WILL hold you at least 24 hours. Totally up to you what your decision is.

    You're very welcome for the help and support. I'm sure others will be here soon with other ideas. Might have been better to have your thread in the Suboxone forum as that has much more traffic than this forum. If you decide to move there i would suggest copying and pasting all these posts there also so others know what's been going on.

    Take care Adam and keep posting. Yep, use this as your journal as I and others have. It really helps!

    -Randy
    Thanks again Randy!

    I do have some confidence in my doctor if for no other reason because of the amount of people that I know he got clean but I am also all for speed. Meaning getting off of the Suboxone as quickly as possible. For the first time I really feel free but I realize I am not yet, but am so motivated.

    I am glad you flamed my desire to stay as low as possible I would definitely have been at a higher dose already. I am currently at 5mg but it's not getting any higher than that and if I do pull back, it will be to 4 and based on his suggestion on how long I should stay at 4, I will then begin tapering and detoxing at the earliest point he says I can.


    My BP which was high during the transition (although I forgot to mention) is thankfully back to low/normal. Again, knowing I am still on Suboxone, it has been a year and a half since I have even gone this long without taking a pill and it FEELS AMAZING!

    As for splitting up the doses for psychological reasons, my doctor suggested the same but I honestly don't care at all about the rituals, or the high (which I was never a recreational opiate user in the first place). I had an injury to my back that caused me to get hooked so I don't really miss that either. I feel much "higher" now feeling off of those than I ever did on so I don't crave them at all. In fact, I am somewhat angry though the happiness that I waited this long to get on the path to sobriety. I feel bad for my wife and 3 year old daughter than I have put them though this.

    Literally only now am I able to see who I used to be and therefore who I was not for the last year and a half or more.

    I am not that person yet, but I can see it, and I can't wait to get back to who I was before my MRI.

    Thanks Randy!

    ~Adam

  10. #10
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Good luck to you Adam. I hope everything works out with this doctor. Should something seem out of place don't hesitate to give us a shout as we'll be here. Take care.

    -Randy
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  11. #11
    Batting500 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy35 View Post
    Good luck to you Adam. I hope everything works out with this doctor. Should something seem out of place don't hesitate to give us a shout as we'll be here. Take care.

    -Randy
    Will do. It all seems out of place. I don't trust doctors, but I am just going to put my faith in his record and dive in. I certainly haven't been able to do it myself. I will keep you informed and again, you're comments have had a real effect on my dosage as I would have let him serve me up to 8-12 had I not had your comments.

    I thought long and hard about the "how do you feel" questions as we were inducing and I also only let him give me 1s instead of 2s because of you and he wouldn't even do .5s. Either way, I'm extremely happy at the moment with where I am. As I said, a little sad because I am seeing how much those little things really got me and how weak I was/am but I am a forward thinking person and am looking forward to a life that is real.

    Thanks man.

    This forum, and you, epitomize the greatness of the Internet. I won't ever forget yours and a few others who I never even chatted with's help.

    ~Adam
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  12. #12
    batting300 is offline Banned
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    Hey guys.

    So I'm on day 3 and very comfortable at 5mg. If I didn't know I was taking Suboxone, I would swear I was drug free. It makes me excited for when I actually am.

    My question, to Randy if you're still reading this, is should I just pull back to 4mg now? If I do, will I feel bad, and if I do, will that bad feeling go away quickly?

    I really want the taper to be quick and so each mg I can shave off now would be great but I also am enjoying this new comfort in my life. Your thoughts are obviously appreciated.

    THANKS!

    Adam

  13. #13
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by batting300 View Post
    Hey guys.

    So I'm on day 3 and very comfortable at 5mg. If I didn't know I was taking Suboxone, I would swear I was drug free. It makes me excited for when I actually am.

    My question, to Randy if you're still reading this, is should I just pull back to 4mg now? If I do, will I feel bad, and if I do, will that bad feeling go away quickly?

    I really want the taper to be quick and so each mg I can shave off now would be great but I also am enjoying this new comfort in my life. Your thoughts are obviously appreciated.

    THANKS!

    Adam


    Hi Adam, yes I'm still reading. My thoughts are that yes you could safely reduce to 4mg now and be just fine. Because of the very long half life of sub, you have PLENTY in your system to keep you comfortable and symptom-free. It's up to you of course but I think I would go ahead and drop to 4mg either today or tomorrow. You could take one dose in the morning and forget it til the next day. Or you could split the dose and take an even amount in the am and pm hour. Never more than 2 doses as that would be addictive behavior. One dose WILL hold you at least 24 hours!

    You mention wanting the taper to be quick and that's not the way to approach this I assure you. The taper needs to be accomplished in a way that provides the least amount of problems. And that is to make each reduction 25% and stay on each dose at LEAST 4 days before reducing further. Slow and steady wins every time!!!

    After 4 days on a dose if you're stable with little to no wd's then go ahead and reduce to the next 25% dose. If not completely stable then remain on that dose a day or two longer. It's EXTREMELY important to never reduce if you're not stable because if you do any symptoms could follow you the rest of the way down in doses.

    Take your time because it's no race, all you have to do is finish. If you follow those suggestions and reduce as low as possible you'll have the very best chance of having a very soft landing at the end and the leats amount of symptoms, if any.

    -Randy
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  14. #14
    Giants95 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy35 View Post
    Hi Adam, yes I'm still reading. My thoughts are that yes you could safely reduce to 4mg now and be just fine. Because of the very long half life of sub, you have PLENTY in your system to keep you comfortable and symptom-free. It's up to you of course but I think I would go ahead and drop to 4mg either today or tomorrow. You could take one dose in the morning and forget it til the next day. Or you could split the dose and take an even amount in the am and pm hour. Never more than 2 doses as that would be addictive behavior. One dose WILL hold you at least 24 hours!

    You mention wanting the taper to be quick and that's not the way to approach this I assure you. The taper needs to be accomplished in a way that provides the least amount of problems. And that is to make each reduction 25% and stay on each dose at LEAST 4 days before reducing further. Slow and steady wins every time!!!

    After 4 days on a dose if you're stable with little to no wd's then go ahead and reduce to the next 25% dose. If not completely stable then remain on that dose a day or two longer. It's EXTREMELY important to never reduce if you're not stable because if you do any symptoms could follow you the rest of the way down in doses.

    Take your time because it's no race, all you have to do is finish. If you follow those suggestions and reduce as low as possible you'll have the very best chance of having a very soft landing at the end and the leats amount of symptoms, if any.

    -Randy
    Thank you again Randy!

    I did go ahead and switch to 4mg today. I wasn't sure so I took 2 in the AM instead of the 3 I am supposed to according to my doc and then the 2 in the PM. So I'll take the other 2 tonight and I guess by tomorrow or the next day I'll say if it leaves me symptom free.

    The most frustrating part is that I almost want to lie to my doctor as I am 80% sure he will be mad at me for not doing what he said. So ironic that I am in literally the exact opposite situation than I would have been with my pain management doc. Instead of afraid of being dropped for being on too much, I'm afraid he will drop me for not following his advice on taking more. Lol. I wish I was joking but he is a bit of a power monger. Made me promise with the speaker on my phone to my wife that I wouldn't drive, while two days into the induction because I mentioned I was going to drive. Never mind that I feel better to drive than I have in over a year.

    As for the speed of the taper, I just meant that 1mg adds another 16 days or so, right? Either way, I am not going to rush it but I don't want it to be longer than it needs to be.

    Thank you again!

    Adam
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-12-2015 at 02:37 PM.

  15. #15
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi there..
    I am glad you are feeling good.
    It is ironic to be in the exact opposite position with the sub dr..
    I was too..
    So I actually had enough sub to last me without going to him at the end.
    Drs like to be the boss..
    Most of them if they don't think of it it is not a good idea? Lol
    But some are open to learn from pts that are actually using the medication..

    The taper here is great!
    Almost perfect!
    I jumped a little over 2 months ago..
    It was much easier than I ever imagined..
    I hope you will drink a lot of water.
    Sub can dehydrate you..
    That can cause head aches..
    Water will help..
    It is nice to have a place to come to where people have gone before you .
    Plus they have been successful!
    Take care
    Iluv2
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-12-2015 at 02:51 PM.
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  16. #16
    Giants95 is offline New Member
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    Thanks luv!

    Yes indeed, I know your story. I've read it a couple times.

    It is fantastic to be able to come and not only get advice but to see the success stories and not just after the fact but as they are happening. To me, it's an invaluable tool and puts you in a place where once you are in that dark place during symptomatic withdrawal, you know there is a light.

    I don't exactly know what I'll be in for when its time to jump off of the Suboxone but the jumping on part couldn't have gone better and I feel so good right now. Better than I have in so long so I can see how people just end up staying on this but I know that won't last and even if it did, I just crave to be in full control. I feel like I am back in some control as I am not thinking about how to make my Suboxone last or how to fill in the gaps if they wouldn't. It's a freedom that is inexplicably liberating. I am doing things with my daughter again that for the last year I had to motivate myself to do like going to the Park. We have Disneyland passes that have been just gone unused most of this year and we are going Tuesday!

    It's great to start getting my life back a little bit at a time and I'll be thrilled when I'm completely off the Suboxone.

    Thank you guys!!!!

    Adam

  17. #17
    Mzmaymay is offline Banned
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    Hi Adam! You're doing great!! I am tapering off of subs too. But unlike you I've been on them for almost two years now. Wish I knew all this helpful info before I started taking them although my situation was different. I'm down to 1mg a day and having a bit difficultly going below that. I'm thinking I might have to less than 25% deductions and just do it slowly. But you're in the right track!!! Just wanted to drop in and say good luck to you and keep us informed! You can do it!

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