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Help! Need to get off vicodin and induct subs quickly, I want off!!
  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Yea, that's true. Good point that is worth reiterating. I've never counted clean days yet, just "days off full opiates". I know earlier I remember you congratulated me on 30 days clean when I shared a bit of my story, and I meant to clarify but it slipped my mind, that I don't see it as clean yet, because jumping from subs will be my final journey to completely off all substances and then I'll count the clean days. But, the subs are partial agonist (aka partial opioids) which is huge because it doesn't provide the euphoria that full opiates gives. That's very precious time that your brain has to re-train itself to enjoy life without opiates, and IMO has been one of the biggest benefits of subs for me - retraining my brain to not rely on substances. The only downside is that you are still dosing something every day or twice a day, so that habit your brain has of knowing it has a substance to help it is still there, but the euphoria and the high not being there is a tremendous valuable tool that subs provide.

    So, yes, while these sub days I don't count as technically "clean" days, it absolutely doesn't change the fact that each day you are on subs.... your brain is getting stronger and relearning how to live life clean without needing substances for a boost.
    Wow DSH, you're posts keep getting better and better! Bring it on!! Lol

    While you're correct here, I guess I have to look at it the same way as my brothers in arms too here. I have to look at it (and moving forward am), that I am now off "full opioids" for X amount of time as I traded doc/habit for subs and life . Once off subs 100%, begins the clean day count.

    I truly agree with your line mentioned earlier, "That's very precious time that your brain has to re-train itself to enjoy life without opiates, and IMO has been one of the biggest benefits of subs for me - retraining my brain to not rely on substances." I honestly couldn't have said it better myself....!!! I look at it as subs are providing us that window of time, that second chance at or in life, for the next few weeks to get this done once and get it done right!! As Bette says....do it once and you'll never have to do it again

    I think that subs help in one or many aspects contingent on the person ofcourse, but mentally can still take a toll on the habit part of the deal as subs can't tell your mind how to forget that part. That has to be trained and done by the user. As your mind is being retraining to live without opioids, as in its not producing additional receptors, starting to drop off other receptors previously "made" while building tolerance, etc, you are still using a partial opioid to "conceal" symptoms, feelings, behaviors, vulnerabilities, etc. great concept, but can't be undermined or underestimated; as in you too have to put your efforts in, not just rely on the subs. They are ONLY a tool and ONLY one part of the equation to clean! God Bless
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  2. #92
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    Hi all, sorry its been 3 days since I've somewhat posted an udpate. So Saturday went well, I took the normal 4mg for the day as I didn't quite feel right yet dropping (i took some advice which was better against my judgement and what my body notioned.) Saturday went very good, according to plan, i was feeling as good as ever, went all around the mall with my family, energized and best of all feeling normal! I spent the whole day outdoors without a worry in sight or mind. Btw I have been amazingly averaging 6-8 hrs of sleep (partially due to advil pm, ropinorole and clonidine).

    Sunday, again, didn't feel right, stayed at 4mg total for the day, had to drive 2 hrs away to a family gathering and did not want to chance dosing at 3mg and encountering any problems, so I bit the bullet and took 4mg for the day again, and the best part was I was again, feeling as good as ever, normal, not worrying about when can i run to the car or hide somewhere with enough water for my feel goods to go down the hatch! No one noticed a thing, it was business as usual! Great day, spent almsot 10 hrs between the event and driving which consumed most of my mind and thoughts so I didn't even think of the habit at all.

    Here we are, Monday! It finally felt right......I dropped to 3mg! I took my 1.5 mg dose at 9am (my usual time) and it held me down! Within 1 hour I felt normal again, so now I know I can stabilize when the times right again to drop to 2mg next. I will be taking my evening dose around 5pm (usual time). Based off what my body says, I hopefully wont have to drag the 3mg dosing out past the 4-5 days like I did with the 4mg since the previous dose of 4mg should be washed out of my system and I have started at a 25% lower dose now! Feeling really giddy about the upcoming days at an even lower dose. Things are starting to lookup for me. Im LOVING this, loving the feeling, loving the support here, loving life, loving my family but most importantly finally showing love for myself again! I will keep posting updates, I truly hope my journey helps others too as others journeys have done for me! God Bless

  3. #93
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    You are doing it!
    I happy you are writing so much about
    Sub as a tool!
    It is a step !

    It probably is one of the most important steps we will take..

    For me I could of never done it without the sub.
    I tried so many times..

    After being clean over 2 years .
    It seems like a lifetime ago..

    I know I can never take an opiate again..
    I have had a few health instances that I could of asked for them..
    But for me..
    The pain won't kill me
    But the pills would..

    That will never change.


    I am so grateful I am to that point in my life..

    Every time I read a persons story on here it never changes.
    Never gets better
    Never
    Ever!

    It took me years to come to this but I am so grateful to get it!

    I can only hope others do too..

    Life is so much better clean!

    Bette

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluv2smile View Post
    You are doing it!
    I happy you are writing so much about
    Sub as a tool!
    It is a step !

    It probably is one of the most important steps we will take..

    For me I could of never done it without the sub.
    I tried so many times..

    After being clean over 2 years .
    It seems like a lifetime ago..

    I know I can never take an opiate again..
    I have had a few health instances that I could of asked for them..
    But for me..
    The pain won't kill me
    But the pills would..

    That will never change.


    I am so grateful I am to that point in my life..

    Every time I read a persons story on here it never changes.
    Never gets better
    Never
    Ever!

    It took me years to come to this but I am so grateful to get it!

    I can only hope others do too..

    Life is so much better clean!

    Bette
    Hi Bette!
    Its been a while since you've popped in! So nice to hear from you old friend!

    Thank you for the words and support. Ofcourse, I will only acknowledge subs as a tool. Nothing more nothing less. That's all it is. A tool, so treat it like one. Don't abuse it, it can come in handy, abuse it, it will bite back!!

    I completely understand your situation and that's the hard part. Moving forward in life....we can never use again which we HAVE to acknowledge and understand. Life must be free and clear away from that garbage! In pain? Take an advil, tylenol or motrin! Suck it up (if possible ofcourse) and do everything in your power to stay away! So proud of you Bette! you've come such a long way. You have been a true aspiration and I admire that! Keep up the good job of staying clean and living the sober life. Real soon i will be joining you since as of now I am only 7 days clean from full opiates!! Keep posting, I always enjoy hearing from you! God Bless
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  5. #95
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    day 2 of 3mg total dosage update!

    So i had a great day yesterday on 3mg. Felt fine and normal, granted the 4mg is still probably being washed out of my system today. Today is day 2 on 3mg and I took my morning dose of 1.5mg at the usual time, boy has it been great waking up at 9am. Granted I lucked out and have been getting alot of good sleep (7-8 hrs) it's still weird waking up at 8-9am! Back in the usage days, it would be going to bed at 1-3am and waking 3-4 times during the night and then finally starting the day at 11am! So good to not lose the day anymore and worry about getting high. Love the way i feel these days, best part is, theres no euphoria to it! It's just me being me with the help of subs. Really feels good and is highly motivating knowing I can be and feel like this again in the coming weeks!!!

    I took my usual morning vitamins & stuff (mentioned in previous posts), once I taper down to 2mg, I will probably kick the clonidine and ropinorole, right know it's really helping with sleep. If I am stable on 3mg daily in the next 2 days, then I will take the leap to 2mg on Friday morning! Really excited about all the milestones. Given the circumstances, I still haven't gauged if I want to jump at 0.5 or taper down to 0.125. I guess as they say....I will go with the flow. Other than that, nothing more going on other than keeping busy and staying occupied so I don't think of anything related to using or even the subs for that matter! I will post an update either later today after second dose or tomorrow after morning dose. God Bless

  6. #96
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    You might want to go to 2.25 mg instead of 2 mg .

    The lower the dose the more you may feel it..
    If it is too big of a drop.

    You are doing great!
    Isn't it amazing?
    Life off pills!
    Definitely worth the work!
    Bette

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluv2smile View Post
    You might want to go to 2.25 mg instead of 2 mg .

    The lower the dose the more you may feel it..
    If it is too big of a drop.

    You are doing great!
    Isn't it amazing?
    Life off pills!
    Definitely worth the work!
    Bette
    Hi Bette!

    How are you?! Thanks for checking in on me!! Sorry, I had miscalculated this whole time. Yes, 2.25mg for 4 days +/- excited for the next mile stone!

    It surely is amazing. Gosh, I can't believe I forgot what normal felt like. It's been that long!! Definitely worth the work and I know for a fact I couldn't have done this without the subs! No way! Day by day, it's getting better and better I am posting daily updates so everyone can see my progress. God Bless
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  8. #98
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    Hey all, just wanted to update the last two days, I have been steady on 3 mg for the day and this is day 5 of 3mg. Sorry I have been just absolutely staying and keeping busy while I am retraining my brain to work differently so my time here has been limited. I am dropping to 2.25mg tomorrow. I think its time to build the full taper schedule because every time I drop by 25% I keep getting weird dosage amounts. What comes after 2.25? Is it 1.5? Then 0.75? Then? I would really appreciate a taper schedule and any help i can get

    Other than coming up with that, I have been stabilizing just fine on each dose before dropping, I stopped taking ropinorole and clonidine as of 2 nights ago and am now just on advilpm to help get me to sleep. Starting to feel better and better each day, motivation, mood, energy is doing great. It was definitely the right time to start as I am packing ny family and we are moving to the east coast. I decided I need a new beginning and to be away as far as possible from this place. I cant be here anymore if I am going to maintain being clean!

    I'd really appreciate any and all taper advice (schedule/dosage) until I hit 0. Thank you all. We got this! God Bless

  9. #99
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    Hi all, sorry I haven't been around lately. We are busy packing to move in 2 weeks, so its been hell. But just to provide a quick update, I am on day 2 of 2mg total for the day and I seem to be doing just fine! It sure beats having the extra 0.25mg in your system. I've been stabilizing quite nicely throughout each drop on dosage and been maintaining it pretty nicely. Today marks 14 days off full opioids! Woohoo! But still have a ways to go until I am off subs. But they have saved me and my family from what could've been a not so happy ending...

    I'll check back in when i can....at this point looks like I am here alone since I haven't seen anyone else post. I did ask for taper schedule help in previous post; so if anyone happens to see it, I would greatly appreciate some help there. Thank you all and God Bless
    Lvg nghtmare likes this.

  10. #100
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopingtobeclean View Post
    Hi all, sorry I haven't been around lately. We are busy packing to move in 2 weeks, so its been hell. But just to provide a quick update, I am on day 2 of 2mg total for the day and I seem to be doing just fine! It sure beats having the extra 0.25mg in your system. I've been stabilizing quite nicely throughout each drop on dosage and been maintaining it pretty nicely. Today marks 14 days off full opioids! Woohoo! But still have a ways to go until I am off subs. But they have saved me and my family from what could've been a not so happy ending...

    I'll check back in when i can....at this point looks like I am here alone since I haven't seen anyone else post. I did ask for taper schedule help in previous post; so if anyone happens to see it, I would greatly appreciate some help there. Thank you all and God Bless
    You're doing great! This link will help you with the taper - https://www.drugs.com/forum/need-tal...nts-59130.html

    Remember, slow and steady wins the race!
    Lvg nghtmare likes this.

  11. #101
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    You're doing great! This link will help you with the taper - https://www.drugs.com/forum/need-tal...nts-59130.html

    Remember, slow and steady wins the race!
    You are not alone. I am here with you. Know what you are going through, currently going through it myself.


    A taper schedule from 2mg could be easy..... 2, 1.5, 1, 0.75, 0.50, 0.25, 0.125... then skip days. That is what I did. Notice there is a 33% drop from 1.5 to 1, and two 50% drops from 0.5 to 0.25, and 0.25 to 0.125, so that is already aggressive and you can stick some middle steps in there. Again, realize this is not rocket science. You just gotta slowly take less and less every couple days until you get off. It's like training yourself to eat less cookies every day... Read your body. If a 1.5 to 1 drop hits you and you feel it, maybe park at 1 for a couple extra days to get stable at 1 before you drop again, or if you don't wanna power right through the process of adjusting to 1 from 1.5, go up to 1.25 immediately as a middle step. Same with the drops at <1mg. This is a race where you don't have to place, you just gotta finish, so it's basically like the deal of a century here.

    Hang in there, rooting for you.


    All kinds of crazy taper plans with different amounts of success out there.... like .06mg drops every week (insane), or 50% drops every 2 days (not advised). The only absolute requirement of a taper plan is you gradually decrease yourt dose. Robert's plan is already max aggressive as 4 days per stop is the minimum you need for the higher doses to wash out so you can truly read how you feel that dose you are on. He advises 25% every 4 days... you can round off of course to get even numbers like I did above.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-25-2017 at 01:26 PM.

  12. #102
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    Hey hopingtobeclean I've missed your posts. You and dsh are the guys who were her with me when I got on. We need some newbies I hope your doing wel htbc (my new nickname for you). I can imagine how moving could be stressful so be sure to try and not let it get to you too much. Be sure you stay dialed in and let us know how you are doing, BEFORE you feel like using. Post a big thread if you feel really scared, mad, sad, or lonely. There have been some people with a year or two clean time who've had great things happening and for others they sometimes hit walls. Just know you'll come out on top and be a better person for it. God bless and we're rooting for you! Post an update when you can.
    Lvg nghtmare likes this.

  13. #103
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopingtobeclean View Post
    Hi all, sorry I haven't been around lately. We are busy packing to move in 2 weeks, so its been hell. But just to provide a quick update, I am on day 2 of 2mg total for the day and I seem to be doing just fine! It sure beats having the extra 0.25mg in your system. I've been stabilizing quite nicely throughout each drop on dosage and been maintaining it pretty nicely. Today marks 14 days off full opioids! Woohoo! But still have a ways to go until I am off subs. But they have saved me and my family from what could've been a not so happy ending...

    I'll check back in when i can....at this point looks like I am here alone since I haven't seen anyone else post. I did ask for taper schedule help in previous post; so if anyone happens to see it, I would greatly appreciate some help there. Thank you all and God Bless
    Happy to hear you are doing well.


    In my first and only real CT attempt in Summer 2016, I got thru acute WD fine in 3 days, but 2-4 weeks of fatigue afterwards really got to me and relapsed. I took some 5mg's oxycodones to try to hurry my energy back, and it ended in a full relapse.


    One thing that happened 3 weeks into my CT attempt... I had to move. Like completely move, my lease was up, they sold the house, I even almost bought it. That was part of what led to me deciding to use. DONT DO IT.

    If anything, you will feel much better after you move. It will be awful starting to move the stuff, but once you do, your muscles will burn, you will feel very tired... and that is the brain's strongest natural signal to get its own endorphins pumping again. That endorphin system is what gets shut down by opiate use as your brain relies on opiates instead of its natural endorphins. Exercise helps with the transition off opiates becauase it gets your brain's nautral happy chemicals pumping again. The "runner's high" if you will.


    So, if you are about to move, or have already moved, I hope it goes well. This is a good challenge, not a bad one. Moving will help you feel better, all that work you put in will raise those endorphins and speed your recovery. Learn from my story, don't be scared of this move and think about relapsing like I did. If you already have done moving, then great! Rooting for you!

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    You're doing great! This link will help you with the taper - https://www.drugs.com/forum/need-tal...nts-59130.html

    Remember, slow and steady wins the race!
    Hi Ricky! Thanks for checking in and helping me with the taper documentation! I am so sorry but I have been packing this past few days which has completely led me away from the forum, but I am responding to everyone now and am about to post an awesome update! I actually was able to skip 2.25 and go straight to 2, today was day 7 on it and I have definitively stabilized and felt as good as ever, so I am dropping to 1.5mg tomorrow morning! God Bless us all....we got this!

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    You are not alone. I am here with you. Know what you are going through, currently going through it myself.


    A taper schedule from 2mg could be easy..... 2, 1.5, 1, 0.75, 0.50, 0.25, 0.125... then skip days. That is what I did. Notice there is a 33% drop from 1.5 to 1, and two 50% drops from 0.5 to 0.25, and 0.25 to 0.125, so that is already aggressive and you can stick some middle steps in there. Again, realize this is not rocket science. You just gotta slowly take less and less every couple days until you get off. It's like training yourself to eat less cookies every day... Read your body. If a 1.5 to 1 drop hits you and you feel it, maybe park at 1 for a couple extra days to get stable at 1 before you drop again, or if you don't wanna power right through the process of adjusting to 1 from 1.5, go up to 1.25 immediately as a middle step. Same with the drops at <1mg. This is a race where you don't have to place, you just gotta finish, so it's basically like the deal of a century here.

    Hang in there, rooting for you.


    All kinds of crazy taper plans with different amounts of success out there.... like .06mg drops every week (insane), or 50% drops every 2 days (not advised). The only absolute requirement of a taper plan is you gradually decrease yourt dose. Robert's plan is already max aggressive as 4 days per stop is the minimum you need for the higher doses to wash out so you can truly read how you feel that dose you are on. He advises 25% every 4 days... you can round off of course to get even numbers like I did above.
    Dsh!!! Long time my man! (Or so it feels like) Geez, just looked at my last post, it was on 4/25! Shoot. This move has me so busy, that I literally haven't thought about anything but it. I hear ya man, we are definitely not alone. You and I and justfortoday have been the recent stories here, except you've been great at posting where as I was too up until 5-6 days ago where I had to start packing! Which I have to say has further helped and saved me as my doc has completely been obliterated from my mind

    How are you holding up and doing? havent checked on you to get an update in awhile. You should almost be done now...how are you feeling? Are you starting to brace yourself and mentally preparing for no more subs?! Do you recall what you felt or went through from your 2mg to 1.5mg drop? (That's currently where I am at).

    As far as the taper schedule goes, I did exactly what you are doing. I took that route... I am currently on day 7 of 2mg, tomorrow will be first day on 1.5mg, I will split the dose 0.75 in am and 0.75 in pm. I know what you mean brother. It's definitely not a placement race; just gotta finish...!!! I too am rooting for you friend. You got this, I got this, we all got this! God Bless

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Hey hopingtobeclean I've missed your posts. You and dsh are the guys who were her with me when I got on. We need some newbies I hope your doing wel htbc (my new nickname for you). I can imagine how moving could be stressful so be sure to try and not let it get to you too much. Be sure you stay dialed in and let us know how you are doing, BEFORE you feel like using. Post a big thread if you feel really scared, mad, sad, or lonely. There have been some people with a year or two clean time who've had great things happening and for others they sometimes hit walls. Just know you'll come out on top and be a better person for it. God bless and we're rooting for you! Post an update when you can.
    Hey justfortoday! Haha, I like the cool new nickname totally right my friend. We are all in this together. We are the recent (and hopefully very soon) success stories!

    So far so good, jftx (that's my nickname for you). How are you holding up? I am going to catch-up on your thread after I post an update here. As far as staying dialed in, haha, I was terrible about that up until I ran into an old bottle (empty!) earlier, and immediately threw it away. I knew I had to get on here ASAP, as my mind went there for a second of shoot, I am leaving here for good, leaving the easy access to doc behind to start fresh and had a sudden small little panick of wait, am I sure I want to do this move?! Then reality set back in 5 seconds later of yes, yes I do. I want to be and stay clean. My family needs me, most importantly I need me. So I needed some alone self relief time which is currently what I am doing. Posting! Posting sure is therapeutic (per dsh and I strongly agree! DSH, I couldn't have said it better myself.) I do not want to be the guy who hits walls, rather the guy who looks back even 6 months from now and says, wow, I can't believe I did that too myself, to my family but at that time, not be mad at myself, because I have already taken a big leap and steps forward to better myself for my family and most importantly me! I am going to definitely be better about posting now, just because I ran into an old empty bottle, it made me realize, even a second on the forum a day really helps give me that huge reality check I need to further reassure myself that everything I am doing is for a brighter future and the right steps in moving on and being happier in life! God Bless, rooting for all of us

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Happy to hear you are doing well.


    In my first and only real CT attempt in Summer 2016, I got thru acute WD fine in 3 days, but 2-4 weeks of fatigue afterwards really got to me and relapsed. I took some 5mg's oxycodones to try to hurry my energy back, and it ended in a full relapse.


    One thing that happened 3 weeks into my CT attempt... I had to move. Like completely move, my lease was up, they sold the house, I even almost bought it. That was part of what led to me deciding to use. DONT DO IT.

    If anything, you will feel much better after you move. It will be awful starting to move the stuff, but once you do, your muscles will burn, you will feel very tired... and that is the brain's strongest natural signal to get its own endorphins pumping again. That endorphin system is what gets shut down by opiate use as your brain relies on opiates instead of its natural endorphins. Exercise helps with the transition off opiates becauase it gets your brain's nautral happy chemicals pumping again. The "runner's high" if you will.


    So, if you are about to move, or have already moved, I hope it goes well. This is a good challenge, not a bad one. Moving will help you feel better, all that work you put in will raise those endorphins and speed your recovery. Learn from my story, don't be scared of this move and think about relapsing like I did. If you already have done moving, then great! Rooting for you!
    Thanks DSH! I know how you feel. Prior to my huge habit, I was only doing 5-8 a day, did CT just fine cause I wasn't binge using at that point. It was more recreational on and off days. Then it escalated to 10-15, then 15-30 a day and at one point, I managed to do CT and bit the bullet hard when wife and child were out of town for 2 weeks. I knew then it was now or never. After 9 full days of actual clean, I relapsed but that's because I hadn't planned a move or to do anything yet. I had just sold company and had money to play with. Not only did I relapse, but I pushed my daily volume higher and higher and higher until I hit 100-150 pills a day for 7 months straight, up until my thread where I decided to quit with subs. I blew through so much money. Money that was to be used on starting a new business, buying things for my family, etc which thankfully I financed the buy-out, so I really knew, I had a second chance, BUT I HAVE TO QUIT FIRST, for a second chance. I KNEW CT was NOT an option. I wouldn't have survived that large of a habit gone CT. I dont care if you're rambo or rocky, I dont think I could've gone through the wd pain or anyone else for that matter.

    The cool thing is, the move is happening while I am on subs, so I am feeling good and normal, not making doc high mistakes and blabbing my mouth off cause of them. My body (even on subs) is naturally getting tired and rebuilding it's endorphins because I am physically involved in the move daily for the last 7-8 days which is also good because that's my exercise while I am lowering doses of subs every few days. So it actually is playing really well into each other. I will still be on subs as we move next Monday to the east coast and I think I will be starting 1mg when we land or a day before. I did notice, this whole time even from 4mg down to the 2mg, I've still had a runny nose daily....I dont know what that's from? Is it still a wd symptom I am experiencing even on subs? To be honest, I was scared earlier when I found the empty bottle, it made me think for a second, am I doing the right thing by moving? Should I cancel and stay behind? Then it went away a few seconds later, because I set my mind to catching up on the forum and therapeutically relieving myself of those thoughts. So sorry about the long replies and posts, but it sure does help getting all this out. We all know how bottled up emotions and feelings can take a toll on someone...I have come so far, you've come so far, so why blow it now for a quick thought of should I or should I not?! The packing and physicality of all the work involved sure helps make this a speedy recovery, as tomorrow marks day 1 of 1.5mg!

    Thanks again as always dsh, for being there, you know I am here for you too! I don't think I need to post an update now as I pretty much said an update through the few replies

    Hope you're doing well. Rooting for you too. Ill check back later and on your thread to catch up with you! God Bless

  18. #108
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Glad to hear you are powering through the move and continuing the taper.


    Everyone's WD is different. For me, the first sign was restlessness, but that could be in my head I dunno, but right after that, without question, extreme unrelentness runny nose. Like, can't go out in public runny nose. It would happen like clockwork about 15 hours in and last for a day or maybe 2 before subsiding.

    In my sub taper, I had really good magnificent days from like 2mg down to 0.75mg. From like 0.75mg on down, I got this really mild but persistent watery runny nose every day, wasn't too bad, maybe a tissue every 30minutes. Not sure what it was, but it was definitely there.

    If I had to guess, it likely was slight WD symptoms. But really, it was perfect. It was a sign that my body was reacting to getting less opiate than it needed given that my first classic WD symptom was popping up, but besides that I otherwise was still feeling good and fine otherwise. Good energy/mood/motivation. So, looking back, it was like I hit the sweet spot. Runny nose was indicator that my brain knew it wasn't getting enough sub and was thus adjusting to it every second of every day and feeling more normal at that lower dose as each second passes, but the dose was not low enough that I felt too bad as I was still feeling pretty good despite the annoying runny nose. It was the perfect amount of burn. That was my theory on that.


    You could be going thru the same thing as you taper down. Read your body carefully over the next couple days, but don't obsess over it either. If you start feeling an UNMISTAKEABLE constellation of opiate-WD symptoms coming on and developinbg slowly over the next couple days.... think about what u wanna do, and see if u wanna stabilize at a dose for an etra day or two. Again, it should be unmistakeable... not just 2-3 hours of restlessness that you panic over or one night of bad sleep that naturally leads to fatigue the next day (not the subs causing the fatigue), but it has to be like 2 days of progressively worse, unmistakeable, with a real physical symptom thrown in there too like CONSTANT runny nose or whatever it is you g et when you WD. The worst thing is the obsess over every single feeling every single second and blame the sub and think everything is related to the sub... it will become a self fulfilling cycle and you will be afraid to taper down further and start imagining symptoms if you get locked in that cycle.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-01-2017 at 12:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Glad to hear you are powering through the move and continuing the taper.


    Everyone's WD is different. For me, the first sign was restlessness, but that could be in my head I dunno, but right after that, without question, extreme unrelentness runny nose. Like, can't go out in public runny nose. It would happen like clockwork about 15 hours in and last for a day or maybe 2 before subsiding.

    In my sub taper, I had really good magnificent days from like 2mg down to 0.75mg. From like 0.75mg on down, I got this really mild but persistent watery runny nose every day, wasn't too bad, maybe a tissue every 30minutes. Not sure what it was, but it was definitely there.

    If I had to guess, it likely was slight WD symptoms. But really, it was perfect. It was a sign that my body was reacting to getting less opiate than it needed given that my first classic WD symptom was popping up, but besides that I otherwise was still feeling good and fine otherwise. Good energy/mood/motivation. So, looking back, it was like I hit the sweet spot. Runny nose was indicator that my brain knew it wasn't getting enough sub and was thus adjusting to it every second of every day and feeling more normal at that lower dose as each second passes, but the dose was not low enough that I felt too bad as I was still feeling pretty good despite the annoying runny nose. It was the perfect amount of burn. That was my theory on that.


    You could be going thru the same thing as you taper down. Read your body carefully over the next couple days, but don't obsess over it either. If you start feeling an UNMISTAKEABLE constellation of opiate-WD symptoms coming on and developinbg slowly over the next couple days.... think about what u wanna do, and see if u wanna stabilize at a dose for an etra day or two. Again, it should be unmistakeable... not just 2-3 hours of restlessness that you panic over or one night of bad sleep that naturally leads to fatigue the next day (not the subs causing the fatigue), but it has to be like 2 days of progressively worse, unmistakeable, with a real physical symptom thrown in there too like CONSTANT runny nose or whatever it is you g et when you WD. The worst thing is the obsess over every single feeling every single second and blame the sub and think everything is related to the sub... it will become a self fulfilling cycle and you will be afraid to taper down further and start imagining symptoms if you get locked in that cycle.
    Sounds fairly similar to what we are going through. Today I woke up and started 1.5mg. Took my first dose of 0.75mg and i felt a little run, but that has now been taken care of. It was just weird that I was experiencing a runny nose daily, all day, even when I was on 4mg. Till today, its still happening. Not the cant go out in public, but its just annoying having to wipe your nose every 30 min. Ugh. as they say, this too shall pass. Its just my body adjusting slowly to the subs lower dosage with the minor wd symptom of a runny nose I guess, which is kinda strange since I have been off full opioids for 3 weeks now...holy cow. I just said 3 weeks, which means, I have saved over $12,000 so far not gobbling down those damn pills. Geez. Wow. $12K in my pocket.....I'm kind of speechless right now. Good luck & God Bless while I sit and think here for a minute about how I saved 12K and Am no longer burning 12K for a bad habit.

  20. #110
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    Hi all, wanted to post a quick update! Day 1 of 1.5mg!

    Today was day one of 1.5mg from 2mg. Against advice, I felt stable enough to drop from 3mg to 2mg which worked perfectly! I did however have to extend 2mg to 7 days, then finally dropped to 1.5mg today! I felt fine and normal today! Mood/energy/motivation was all there, ofcourse it took about 30-45 min to kick in after dosing. I have been experiencing the runny nose since induction. I believe it is a wd symptom showing due to heavy usage that ofcourse not even 4mg will mask for me let alone 1.5mg. I Have been so busy with packing, last minute things, people stopping by to say bye that its kept me so occupied I haven't thought of doc or anythiNg else for that matter, and I've been getting quite the exercise from this move which I truly believe is what's helping make it a speedy recovery process in that my brain is healing itself a tad bit quicker than it normally should as I would most likely be detoxing on the couch or in bed the first week then back to work! Just wanted to update everyone on my journey. Tomorrow marks my 3 weeks off full opioids! Wow! What a milestone! I cant even believe 3 weeks flew by so quickly. But I have to say, I've never felt better. Gosh it feels good and amazing to feel this way again! The taper is working GREAT, I am living and loving life like the way I used to...before drugs and alcohol! Good luck and God Bless us all! I will post the next update tomorrow after the AM dose!

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    Hey dsh, sorry for the delay, this is the first I've had all this last 2-3 days to breathe. Just finished packing, its 1am, movers come @ 9am. Fml!

    Totally agree, I definitely hit the sweet spot! I can say for sure my mind is well beyond used to the subs now lol. Tomorrow marks day 5 of 1.5mg, I actually already setup my subs to carry me on the 1.5mg dose until I land in the east coast Tuesday AM, I have a red eye flight Monday night :/ as you said, less is more, but I have stabilized at 1.5, and can not chance any "problems " in drop right before a big move and a flight on top of that.

    When I used I only took the pills orally, never snorted. So still strange why I am experiencing the runny nose, I mean, is it possible the wd symptoms are slightly lingering due to the volume of vics I used? 1g-1.5g a day is NO joke, so I wouldn't put it past it that the subs are masking 90% and I am still seeing some wd symptoms, not alot, as in just the runny nose, due to myself also starting induction at a low dose too, only 4mg...who knows, any help/advice would be appreciated..., Ill check in on you soon and Ill try to post as often as I can until i land and am stable there to have more time here Good luck too all, and God Bless us!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-09-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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    Hey hoping! I figure you are worn out from the move and your flight. Just checking in to see how you are doing with all the change. Just remember that it's not worth it to go back and increase your dose bc as you told me- you'd have to reset the clock and that would be a bummer. I hope you are doing well- get some rest if you need to. I found that even though I have low body weight and what I think to be pretty low body fat (supposedly where the fentanyl is stored), it takes the 4th day before I really see what a taper will feel like. Personally I am finding a week to be a perfect time for me to be on each dose. I am now down to 1 mg and plan to taper down to .75 tomorrow. Keep fighting the good fight and God bless you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Hey hoping! I figure you are worn out from the move and your flight. Just checking in to see how you are doing with all the change. Just remember that it's not worth it to go back and increase your dose bc as you told me- you'd have to reset the clock and that would be a bummer. I hope you are doing well- get some rest if you need to. I found that even though I have low body weight and what I think to be pretty low body fat (supposedly where the fentanyl is stored), it takes the 4th day before I really see what a taper will feel like. Personally I am finding a week to be a perfect time for me to be on each dose. I am now down to 1 mg and plan to taper down to .75 tomorrow. Keep fighting the good fight and God bless you!
    Hey jftx! Boy oh boy are you right! Worn out, dreading the decision and tired as hell. This has been an absolute nightmare!!!

    I need to vent for a minute here....so I was quoted $4,000 for the whole move; yes, I figured the same thing you probably are too.....thats way to good to be true...a cross country move for $4k?! Taking all things into account, I assumed and prepared for the worse; it could be a bait and switch, so let me prepare to possibly pay upwards of $8,000...so long story short, by the time we were done loading the truck with the workers, the bill sky rocketed to $18,000!!! I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the "revised" estimate surcharge!! I told the foreman, I cant afford $18K, NOT TO MENTION, half the stuff in the truck doesn't even come out to $10K so why the hell would I pay $18K to move it?! So now I've been playing phone tag with the moving company rep this past 3 days; ofcourse when this happens he's not around, or hes busy....yeah....but when it was time to book he was up at midnight trying to seal the deal. CROOKS. so now I am waiting to hear back from them on what we can do about the "invoice". Honestly, if I knew this move was going to be this damn expensive or such a headache, I probably wouldn't have done it....but I am glad I did. So on top of all this shiet, the car transportation company, pulls a similar bs stunt! I told them my window to pickup both cars would be from 5/3-5/6, not a day before, not a day later. Ofcourse here we are, Tuesday, I am on the east coast....my cars haven't even been picked up. UNBELIEVABLE! Pure hell. A damn nightmare. They told me, oh, since we "price matched" the other guys, you are on a flexible schedule. Well...mr car transport rep, WHY THE HELL DIDNT YOU TELL ME THAT WHEN I WAS BOOKING?! Now their only solution is for me to pay $300 more to have it picked up guaranteed in 48 hours....unbelievable. I just went off yelling and cursing at them to bite the $300 fee on top since this is their fault for not telling me. Their response was "sir, it's in the contract"....yeah, it's in the contract alright, except, I never signed your contract! I signed the pickup form and told your rep I'd sign the contract when they physically show up to pickup both cars! Now they are trying to remedy the situation, my fault for not checking their 1.5/5 star reviews for the same problems others had prior to booking with them!

    It gets worse....I have to come clean....I slipped up. I feel so bad and guilty for doing so....I landed 30 vicodin. I used 10 of them yesterday and felt it. It hit me hard since my body has been flushed from full opioids for over 4 weeks now. I knew I had messed up, so before this could get out of control, I stopped for a second and thought real hard about "what the hell did I just do?!, I just ruined everything I worked so hard for this past 4 weeks for one day because I couldn't handle being overwhelmed by everything that just happened and is happening", so I immediately smacked myself back to reality and took the remainder 20 vics and flushed them down the toilet. I am so mad and angry at myself. How could I do this?! How did I let the pressure and stress from all this get to me so bad that I went out of my way, the day of our flight (yesterday) and got anything I could get my hands on. Lucky for me, my old dealer only had 30 on him; otherwise I'd probably try to figure out how to bring it with. I messed up bad. I messed up real hard. I knew I had to come clean not only to myself; but to everyone here, who has been my saving grace and support system alongside my journey to getting clean. I truly feel guilty! A real heel. I sit here trying to help others and keep an eye on them and their thread; I preach what I believe is right and what is wrong, I try to give good advice, yet, I went and slipped up?? How could I? Why did I? I don't have an answer; but I know coming clean here sure helps and is yet again; a step in the right direction even though I went one step back yesterday. I guess I have to reset the sub protocol and start over again, for a one time hiccup. I will maybe begin at 2mg daily for 4-7 days, or maybe I should just resume 1.5mg and keep tapering down as I had according to plan and maybe now that I will stick to the taper and follow through with it; I can escape the mess that could've been created, especially now that I am 3,000 miles away from what once had me in a terrible and viscous cycle the last few years...to whomever is following my journey; I apologize to you personally for letting you down. As much as you didn't and weren't expecting this, neither was I. God bless us all and I am going to continue fighting through this disease to get and stay clean.

    Your friend, hopingtobeclean

  24. #114
    Lvg nghtmare is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey hopingtobeclean. You could never let me down. You never have to apologise. Your doing fine, glad you realised what you were doing and flushed good for you proud of you. It happens so you picked yourself up and pushed forward.. Failure is only a failure if you don't learn from your mistakes. Stay strong one day at a time..
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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    It happens. For whatever it's worth, having the subs in your system provide a floor/landing cushion for you. Taking full opiates after taking subs a big difference than taking full opiates then trying to start subs. That being said, this is only the physical part mind you, the mental breakdown for how it happened of course needs to be addressed, and you are doing that.

    The move will help. Get away from the contact/supplier. Putting up a fairly big wall between you and the access to the opiates sets up several layers of self control where you can check yourself if you ever feel a moment of weakness. If it's in a drawer in your house, or its one easy phone call away... it's very easy to relapse. If you cut off your supply hard and cold in the form of a cross country move, then it becomes a lot harder to relapse. Not to say that person can't find a way if they had to, but definitely finding a new supplier in a new city should be a big enough barrier that you have plenty of opportunity to check yourself if you ever find yourself going down that road again. Was there a small part of you that felt that once the move was done, all your access to supply would be gone, and the thought of just one more spin, or the permanence of losing your supply for good.. did that factor into some of the justifcation for using? DUnno, just throwing it out there. Always helps to search inside and figure out those answers for future in case temptations arise again.


    Hang in there. Staying at 1.5 or going to 2mg/day is fine. Give yourself another 4-6 days at this stop in doseage in order for all the vicodins to wash out, and then get back to what you were doing.

  26. #116
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    My post got flagged for moderator review, probably because it had an outside link, so I am reposting with the link removed



    Last thing I wanna add.... for wahtever reason it seems like week 2 mark on subs is a common place for ppl to relapse and "test the power of the subs to block full opiates". I guess there's like a 2 week honeymoon period, and then thoughts of opioids and waxing nostalgic start catching up, and repeated attempts to justify it finally squeak through the mental barrier you try to place on it. The problem with this happening during a taper such as this, is that you might be on lower dose subs which don't fully block the power of full opiates like an 8mg./day or 16mg/day regimen would have. I did research on this myself, at 2mg/day doses your receptors are only about 50% covered with sub at this point, whereas at like 8mg/day doses it is like 95% coverage, and at like 16mg it is 99% coverage. So again, whatever it is worth, at least half of your receptors were protected by some subs when they were exposed to vicodin... which again is probably why you felt the high but also didn't crash and have WD's afterwards... teh subs were still there locked to half ur receptors holding them down and quenching your brain's opioid needs. Don't fret about 2mg doses only covering half your receptors. Leaving them empty is the only way your brain will get rid of them and heal, so that is definitely a good thing for the time being.


    If you google the NAABT website for buprenorphine advocacy, and you click on the page titled "what is treatment like?" you will get a little timeframe list that includes this, which you can see right at week 2:

    "Week 2
    You may be experiencing the “honeymoon” stage of your recovery. You will have a sense of hopefulness because you feel like you are in control and all is well again.

    Do not become so comfortable that you become lax in your routine of medication administration. Take your Buprenorphine in the fully prescribed dose at the same time every day unless your doctor has instructed you otherwise.

    This is often the week some patients test the blocking effect of the Buprenorphine."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, I guess, my point is this isn't uncommon, and it happens. Don't beat yourself up over it. The important things are again, you realized the problem, flushed the supply, and you have a move coming in that will benefit this process immensely if there's no easy way to access supply cross country. Hang in there, rooting for you.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-09-2017 at 03:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvg nghtmare View Post
    Hey hopingtobeclean. You could never let me down. You never have to apologise. Your doing fine, glad you realised what you were doing and flushed good for you proud of you. It happens so you picked yourself up and pushed forward.. Failure is only a failure if you don't learn from your mistakes. Stay strong one day at a time..
    Hey LVG......wow. Thank you very much for the motivation and kind words. That one line alone "You could never let me down" just put me back on track, where I needed to be and back on this journey to clean. BIG THANK YOU AND PAT ON THE BACK. As my goal and intentions by no means were to let you or anyone else in the forum down; like many of us, we all want to become success stories, not horror. What I did yesterday, the relapse....ugh.....just shot me down mentally and emotionally, immediately after I popped all 10, I had remorse. But why was I being remorseful after I popped them, why couldn't I have been prior to? Why did I call my dealer? My mind said "too much stress, can't deal with this whole transition, need to find a way out" while my emotions said "wtf are you doing you". I just felt I needed to apologize, I guess it's more of a mental thing, since I never apologize for what I do, including my mistakes! (Ask my wife! LOL).

    As you said, it happens. What's done is done. I can't look back and feel bad, or pity myself. I just got really bothered by it because I am one of those guys that when I put my mind to something, I do it, I finish it, I follow through with it to the end. It's more of a deterrent in my head when the relapse happened because it showed sign(s) of weakness left in me, that I allowed for the relapse to happen.

    At the "supposed" best time and part in my life where I made an impactful decision and huge leap to be free and clean and pretty much have a second chance at life, I became weak and caved in to the one very thing I was escaping from. I just need to push through, move forward and not think of what just happened but think of what I can do to prevent it moving forward! Failure is only a failure if you don't learn from your mistakes......couldn't have said it better myself LVG, and this mistake, I DEFINITELY LEARNED FROM. I have addressed it and am now officially 3,000 miles away from the place which consistently allowed for me to carry on my addictive behavior with my doc, put me in my worst of times, lowest of low points and what almost ruined my life. God bless all of you, for being there for me, it is great appreciated, from the bottom of my heart!

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    It happens. For whatever it's worth, having the subs in your system provide a floor/landing cushion for you. Taking full opiates after taking subs a big difference than taking full opiates then trying to start subs. That being said, this is only the physical part mind you, the mental breakdown for how it happened of course needs to be addressed, and you are doing that.

    The move will help. Get away from the contact/supplier. Putting up a fairly big wall between you and the access to the opiates sets up several layers of self control where you can check yourself if you ever feel a moment of weakness. If it's in a drawer in your house, or its one easy phone call away... it's very easy to relapse. If you cut off your supply hard and cold in the form of a cross country move, then it becomes a lot harder to relapse. Not to say that person can't find a way if they had to, but definitely finding a new supplier in a new city should be a big enough barrier that you have plenty of opportunity to check yourself if you ever find yourself going down that road again. Was there a small part of you that felt that once the move was done, all your access to supply would be gone, and the thought of just one more spin, or the permanence of losing your supply for good.. did that factor into some of the justifcation for using? DUnno, just throwing it out there. Always helps to search inside and figure out those answers for future in case temptations arise again.


    Hang in there. Staying at 1.5 or going to 2mg/day is fine. Give yourself another 4-6 days at this stop in doseage in order for all the vicodins to wash out, and then get back to what you were doing.
    Thanks dsh. I appreciate the words brother. BIG THANK YOU to you as well. As you have been there for me from day one....you know I am here for you too.

    So as of today, I haven't taken any subs. I was scared that it might send me into precipitated wds, which I do not want to face. Yes I did address the problem as of now, I no longer have access to doc for the matter. Just my subs lol. I wonder when I can resume on subs...should I just wait till tomorrow before starting again? The mental breakdown is what caused this, I firmly believe it was all in relation to the move. So much going on, buying and selling a house, starting the new company, doc free and on subs, auto and moving transport, it all plays a toll and adds up real quick!!
    The move sure is going to help, it keeps me at bay from supplier/dealer. The way I have it setup now, is pretty much a big wall and virtually impossible for me to score as I know nobody here. Not a single soul and my wife's family is 1.5 hrs away from us. That being said, it should be difficult to relapse! I couldn't relapse if my life depended on it! I essentially cut myself off from that dark dark dark world we once lived in and for me that was on the other side of the good old USA. As you said, not to say a person can't find a way, but this time around, if I even wanted to do, I couldn't.....it would have to be a miracle, a hail mary for that to happen.

    I actually partially believe you hit the nail on the head with the hammer! It might've truly been a small part of me that said oh shiet, im gone tomorrow, this is it, maybe one last spin, yet I managed to partially blame the powers of stress with the whole move as my gateway to go at it one last time...I mean, I don't believe 100% that's what it was, but I believe that was a 1/4 factor that played it's role in the relapse, if that makes sense?

    Nonetheless, I did relapse and it did happen, moving forward, I find it almost impossible to relapse here since A. I have no means of doing so and B. it would literally defeat the purpose of the move to start fresh, and after the massive expense of moving here that costed me a fortune (lol, i look at it like I saved the last 4 weeks not using and just blew it all away on this move) I just can't fathom getting back into the one thing I worked so hard, paid so hard to leave and escape from. Not to mention, I just flat out don't want to mess with it or do it! In all honesty, the relapse itself turned me off immensely...it wasn't the normal euphorically happy high I got the first time I ever used as right before induction, I was just pretty much using to be semi normal/stabilize the day with my doc instead of going into wds and having to deal with that nightmare......so yeah, doesn't make sense that I would allow for anything other than sobriety and to live a clean, friendly, drug-free life in a new state where I know no one. Best decision I've made in a very long time, aka, before I got hooked and went down this very dark and what I once thought was a lonely path, turned out to be not so lonely once I got on the forum and met all my new friends here rooting for me as I do for them! God Bless

  29. #119
    Lvg nghtmare is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey hopingtobeclean, "Kind of person that carries it through to the end". Addiction a Chronic Life Long Diease.. Life long. Never let that little devil whispers in your ear, temptation ugh.. Live for today.. I was there two weeks ago, bargaining with Myself you can just take one and feel better, no I'm an addict with no self control... Proud of You. Stay Strong...here for you..
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopingtobeclean View Post
    Thanks dsh. I appreciate the words brother. BIG THANK YOU to you as well. As you have been there for me from day one....you know I am here for you too.

    So as of today, I haven't taken any subs. I was scared that it might send me into precipitated wds, which I do not want to face. Yes I did address the problem as of now, I no longer have access to doc for the matter. Just my subs lol. I wonder when I can resume on subs...should I just wait till tomorrow before starting again? The mental breakdown is what caused this, I firmly believe it was all in relation to the move. So much going on, buying and selling a house, starting the new company, doc free and on subs, auto and moving transport, it all plays a toll and adds up real quick!!
    The move sure is going to help, it keeps me at bay from supplier/dealer. The way I have it setup now, is pretty much a big wall and virtually impossible for me to score as I know nobody here. Not a single soul and my wife's family is 1.5 hrs away from us. That being said, it should be difficult to relapse! I couldn't relapse if my life depended on it! I essentially cut myself off from that dark dark dark world we once lived in and for me that was on the other side of the good old USA. As you said, not to say a person can't find a way, but this time around, if I even wanted to do, I couldn't.....it would have to be a miracle, a hail mary for that to happen.

    I actually partially believe you hit the nail on the head with the hammer! It might've truly been a small part of me that said oh shiet, im gone tomorrow, this is it, maybe one last spin, yet I managed to partially blame the powers of stress with the whole move as my gateway to go at it one last time...I mean, I don't believe 100% that's what it was, but I believe that was a 1/4 factor that played it's role in the relapse, if that makes sense?

    Nonetheless, I did relapse and it did happen, moving forward, I find it almost impossible to relapse here since A. I have no means of doing so and B. it would literally defeat the purpose of the move to start fresh, and after the massive expense of moving here that costed me a fortune (lol, i look at it like I saved the last 4 weeks not using and just blew it all away on this move) I just can't fathom getting back into the one thing I worked so hard, paid so hard to leave and escape from. Not to mention, I just flat out don't want to mess with it or do it! In all honesty, the relapse itself turned me off immensely...it wasn't the normal euphorically happy high I got the first time I ever used as right before induction, I was just pretty much using to be semi normal/stabilize the day with my doc instead of going into wds and having to deal with that nightmare......so yeah, doesn't make sense that I would allow for anything other than sobriety and to live a clean, friendly, drug-free life in a new state where I know no one. Best decision I've made in a very long time, aka, before I got hooked and went down this very dark and what I once thought was a lonely path, turned out to be not so lonely once I got on the forum and met all my new friends here rooting for me as I do for them! God Bless
    If you never stopped the subs at any point, and this was a one day one time thing, you are probably safe to resume the subs, because like I said you always had a big buildup in your system protecting you (2mg/day doses = approx 6mg blood levels total from previous days' doses). You could probably continue to take daily sub without issue without interruption, but you never know. I guess it can't hurt to be on the safe side, skip a day, and restart tomorrow. After all, the induction typically only takes 24 hours anyways, so 24 hours from your last vicodin use should be safe.

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