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Oxycontin hell in UK
  1. #1
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Default Oxycontin hell in UK

    Hi everyone.
    This is my first post here. I am in the UK & have been addicted to Oxycontin now for 6yrs.
    I was first prescribed this by my doctor for degenerative discs in my lower back which causes me constant pain along with the muscle spasms, trapped nerves etc, I'm basically knackered at the age of 47.
    To cut a long story short my Dr ended up prescribing me 800mg's of Oxy per day but over time & due to becoming addicted I was taking nearer 1500mgs per day. I was doing the usual things that if you're reading this you know all about, lying to my Dr saying I was going out of town for a week & needed my prescription earlier etc etc etc.
    Eventually & after my Dr (the same dr that put me on Oxy with no warning of how addictive it was) refused to see me, I changed Dr's & decided enough was enough. I needed to get off Oxy & wanted my life back.
    I have managed with my new Dr's help to taper down to 320mgs per day. I have a daily prescription so I can't take more but I'm terrified to drop any lower.
    I have been told I should be in hospital & be on methadone to get off Oxy. My issue Is I still need something if I do come off Oxy to deal with my back pain.
    Not many places I've tried in the UK seem willing to put me on methadone saying it's only for >>>>>> addicts.
    My question is does anyone in the UK have any experience of methadone treatment as I don't think much is known here in the UK about Oxy as it in the USA.
    I am really really depressed all the time also since I dropped the dosage down to 320mgs per day.
    I just seem to be stuck in "hell on earth" every day depressed, not living but existing. I just want my life back.

    Sorry for going on & on but thank you for listening.
    God bless all of you that are suffering from this drug from hell.

    Ritchie x
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  2. #2
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    Ritchie,
    Welcome to the forum! First off let me say, it's so weird to talk to someone 1/2 way around the world. Cool, but weird!
    Anyway just wanted to reply to your reaching out for help. You had mentioned methodone.. Is there anyway to get on Suboxone? I think this is a better choice for coming off opiates. Although I have never taken methodone, there are countless people who have completed the taper from Suboxone with great success.
    Is this an option for you?
    I know it feel like your just watching the world go by and are in a very dark place, but please know there are options available and you can get your life back. Don't give up hope. People on this forum are very helpful and caring. Total strangers taking time out of their lives to offer their support and experience. Most importantly, you have to keep posting!!!
    Sending blessings to you, to find strength and hope!
    Michelle
    ps: if you look through some old threads, I think there are a few people from your neck of the woods. Post, Post, Post!
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  3. #3
    silverlining1 is offline Senior Member
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    Hey Ritchie....

    Welcome to the forum. I'm not from the UK, but a mg is a mg.......when you say you were prescribed 800 mgs of Oxy....was that just Oxy? Or was something like paracetamol (sp) mixed in?
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  4. #4
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Richie..
    Welcome to a great place for support..
    I would say get off the oxy then evaluate your pain
    Then decide about methadone..
    It sounds like your behaviors have been that of an addict..
    Ne too so I am not judging just wondering does your dr not know?
    Because of the statement methadone is only for addicts..
    Many people myself included went on methadone after a car accident
    And eventually abusing the norco..
    Hydrocodone 40-50 10s a day..
    So methadone at 1 time a day sounded great..
    If I had known what I know now that would have been my last choice ..
    I would have gotten clean then 30 days later
    Evaluated my pain
    Made a decision when I was not addicted..
    It took me 10 years to get off the methadone..
    It just made me numb
    Not only to pain but to life
    And happiness..
    It took me to my knees..
    I hated it and hated everything else
    Especially myself..
    I got off of it finally
    18+ months ago
    I used suboxone to get off of it..
    Now 11+ months off of everything..
    Honestly my pain is controlled with excedrin..
    But I had to make major changes in my life..
    I started exercising and eating healthy..
    Changed all the furniture around in my house that reminded me of being loaded on opiates..
    It has been well worth the fight!
    It is a hard decision and probaly hard to believe but you can get off of them..
    3-5 days and you will be through the worst..
    Short acting opiates are much easier to get off of..
    Methadone and suboxone a whole different conversation..
    We will support you..
    If you start your thread on the need to talk board on here
    You will get lots of support..
    Life is much better from this
    Side..

    Take care
    Bette
    Last edited by Anonymous; 12-20-2015 at 12:12 PM.
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  5. #5
    silverback999 is offline New Member
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    Hey,

    I know what you're going through and the hell it can be. As someone above said, I think your best bet is buprenorphine. I'm also from the UK and have used it a couple of times. Most recent time is now, stopped taking up to 640mg oxy per day just under 3 days ago and now feel "fine" (well, physically fine, but my life just feels boring and I don't know what to do with myself... anyway). Unfortunately I can't tell you how to get it from a doctor (although i know someone in the uk who went through some sort of pragram), but let's just say I get it through... Online sources. Anyway, all the best and good luck!

  6. #6
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Hi all & thanks for the replies.
    I don't think Suboxone is an option where I am though Subutex may be??
    I still say not as much is known in UK like it is in USA about how bad Oxy is.
    I know no one held a gun to my head & made me take all this Oxy but I just feel like the NHS that we use here in UK got me on this stuff, now I'm addicted to them they don't wanna know!
    My doctor, the substance misuse service & talking mental health, ive seen them all but I'm still stuck, addicted to this stuff & going mad!!
    I've tried to get referred to Bristol hospital which is 140 miles from me to see a dr called Cathryn Stannard that specialises in getting addicts off opiates using methadone, but my Dr says the nhs will not fund it.
    If I was on the streets on H I would have been sorted by now but, though I keep asking for help, I keep getting nowhere fast.
    I have never felt this bad since I started tapering down from the 800mg's. I've been on 320mgs now for roughly 6wks & I cannot see away out. As I said I just exist. Don't look forward to anything, can't plan anything, can't do anything at all, only wonder if it's all worth it. If it wasn't for my daughters who are my whole world then I probably wouldn't be in here now
    Last edited by Anonymous; 12-22-2015 at 12:07 PM.

  7. #7
    silverback999 is offline New Member
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    Suboxone and subutex is essentially the same thing (one has naloxone if I'm not mistaken). Mate honestly, if you can take a week off work, any responsibilities, etc and go somewhere, you will be fine. I did that and around day 4 I was feeling so much better. Trust me at the end of the week you will (almost) be fine.
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  8. #8
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    You're right about Sub mate.
    I was fine tapering but as soon as I got to 4 x 80's per day I struggled for 4wks with aches & pains, sweating, constantly yawning, eyes running etc etc, so personally for me I think withdrawals will last longer than that but, I suppose everyone is different.
    I lost my job in February & haven't worked since. I've worked since I was 14 & never had time off work, working for same company for 27yrs. The thought of work at moment worries me but I don't know why??? That's another thing I've put down to Oxy's.
    As I said, I never felt anywhere near this bad when I was taking 800mg's per day. Only since dropping the dose!
    This time last yr I was on £50k per yr driving a new Lexus F - Sport, now I have nothing & struggle daily for money.
    I could do with just a tiny amount of the $1 billion that the state of Kentucky are aiming to get from Purdue Pharma that manufacture Oxycontin for destroying my & thousands of others lives
    Last edited by Anonymous; 12-22-2015 at 12:45 PM.
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  9. #9
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritchie2168 View Post
    Hi everyone.
    This is my first post here. I am in the UK & have been addicted to Oxycontin now for 6yrs.
    I was first prescribed this by my doctor for degenerative discs in my lower back which causes me constant pain along with the muscle spasms, trapped nerves etc, I'm basically knackered at the age of 47.
    To cut a long story short my Dr ended up prescribing me 800mg's of Oxy per day but over time & due to becoming addicted I was taking nearer 1500mgs per day. I was doing the usual things that if you're reading this you know all about, lying to my Dr saying I was going out of town for a week & needed my prescription earlier etc etc etc.
    Eventually & after my Dr (the same dr that put me on Oxy with no warning of how addictive it was) refused to see me, I changed Dr's & decided enough was enough. I needed to get off Oxy & wanted my life back.
    I have managed with my new Dr's help to taper down to 320mgs per day. I have a daily prescription so I can't take more but I'm terrified to drop any lower.
    I have been told I should be in hospital & be on methadone to get off Oxy. My issue Is I still need something if I do come off Oxy to deal with my back pain.
    Not many places I've tried in the UK seem willing to put me on methadone saying it's only for >>>>>> addicts.
    My question is does anyone in the UK have any experience of methadone treatment as I don't think much is known here in the UK about Oxy as it in the USA.
    I am really really depressed all the time also since I dropped the dosage down to 320mgs per day.
    I just seem to be stuck in "hell on earth" every day depressed, not living but existing. I just want my life back.

    Sorry for going on & on but thank you for listening.
    God bless all of you that are suffering from this drug from hell.

    Ritchie x
    Ritchie!
    Before you get on methadone, do yourself a favor and just do what Bette says. Get off the oxy and reevaluate. Methadone is MUCH WORSE than the short-acting opiates you're now on. Methadone stays in your system, rots your guts, kills your sex drive, can make you paranoid and will leave you begging for God on your knees in pain.
    I know. I just kicked it.
    Can you taper off the opiates? Do you have the help of a doctor?
    As for the pain, believe it or not, but i had LESS pain after i got off the pills and methadone and suboxone. It seems that those short-acting opiates make you feel worse in the long run. You see, they were not meant for maintenance. Just short-term use. Even the methadone and subs didn't help the pain really. Yoga stretching, good eating, water water water. I no longer need my cane.
    Can you get with a good doctor to ease you off the oxys? Taper it down some more. We get depressed after taking depressants for a long time!
    If you absolutely can not get off the oxys, get informed about possible suboxone therapy although i tell you the wd from that takes some time.
    Ritchie, we didn't get here over night. But you've come so far getting down to your present dose. I know it's hell.
    Bette is a nurse. She said it would take about a week -- i'll recheck her post. Yes, she says 3-5 days and you'll be through the worst. Taper down lower and follow her good advice.
    Wishing you, our Friends in Britain, a happy new year.
    Let us know what you decide to do, but be thankful that you have been thwarted in your efforts to obtain methadone! God works in mysterious ways!
    Cheers!

  10. #10
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    Hey there Ritchie,
    Just wanted to stop by and see how your doing? Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope your are doing o.k? I hope this new year finds you in a better place. I know your last post left me feeling a little nervous. You can not...repeat can not give up hope. You may not have a job or a Lexus anymore, but you did say you had kids and they need their dad. It's a dark place we find ourselves in, but we can dig our way out. I promise you that!!! There is hope, love, and joy in life and we have to get back there.
    Michelle
    xxoo
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  11. #11
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    [deleted - swearing]
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-09-2016 at 06:06 AM.

  12. #12
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi Richie
    I know you must be in pain.
    But if you swear on here it will be deleted and then we won't know what you said..
    When I say something about addiction it is not because I am a nurse
    It is because I am an addict
    Even though you are possibly not an addict
    You are suffering the same consequences
    What is the difference?
    If you say you can get more help as an addict
    Why not take that route?
    Your brain chemistry has been changed by these opiates
    So you really are suffering..
    But it will pass ..
    Even these feelings of despair will pass..
    That is why it is so hard to taper..
    You are in a constant state of withdrawal..
    Not only that
    Your brain cannot heal..
    That is the biggest consequence..
    Please check back in ..
    Bette
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  13. #13
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Thanks Bette
    When i said about getting more help as an addict, what i meant by that was as a H addict, (it wont let me type in H###in as it gets deleted). I think you are right by saying I'm in a constant state of withdrawal when tapering which is why I think it's so very hard.
    I read this somewhere which kinda explains why I along with thousands of others feel this way: our brains produce endorphins naturally or when we excerise etc, this is what makes us feel good. Opiates attach to the receptors in out brains & the opiates then take over producing these endorphins which is what makes you feel good when you take them. Because the opiates produce the "feel good endorphins" the brain stops producing them altogether. Because I've been reducing the amount of opiates I no longer feel good due to the reduction & my brain still isn't priding endorphins because I'm still taking opiates, albeit a lot less. Hence feeling really down all the time. Does that make sense??
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-09-2016 at 07:46 AM.
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  14. #14
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockandhardplace View Post
    Hey there Ritchie,
    Just wanted to stop by and see how your doing? Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope your are doing o.k? I hope this new year finds you in a better place. I know your last post left me feeling a little nervous. You can not...repeat can not give up hope. You may not have a job or a Lexus anymore, but you did say you had kids and they need their dad. It's a dark place we find ourselves in, but we can dig our way out. I promise you that!!! There is hope, love, and joy in life and we have to get back there.
    Michelle
    xxoo
    Hi Michelle.
    I replied to your post but it got deleted.
    I wanted to say don't worry, although I think about it, I wouldn't do it because of my daughters who are my world. I probably wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for them.
    Anyway, I have an appointment on Tuesday with the addiction psychiatrist at the substance misuse service to see where I go next. So ill let you know how I get on.
    I also said that for Purdue Pharma to have paid out over $600 million
    In lawsuits & for the state of Kentucky to be filing a lawsuit for $100 billion there is obviously a big problem with oxycontin take care Michelle, I'll post back Tuesday with some good news hopefully xx
    Ritchie

  15. #15
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritchie2168 View Post
    Thanks Bette
    When i said about getting more help as an addict, what i meant by that was as a H addict, (it wont let me type in H###in as it gets deleted). I think you are right by saying I'm in a constant state of withdrawal when tapering which is why I think it's so very hard.
    I read this somewhere which kinda explains why I along with thousands of others feel this way: our brains produce endorphins naturally or when we excerise etc, this is what makes us feel good. Opiates attach to the receptors in out brains & the opiates then take over producing these endorphins which is what makes you feel good when you take them. Because the opiates produce the "feel good endorphins" the brain stops producing them altogether. Because I've been reducing the amount of opiates I no longer feel good due to the reduction & my brain still isn't priding endorphins because I'm still taking opiates, albeit a lot less. Hence feeling really down all the time. Does that make sense??
    Yes Ritchie
    What u say makes perfect sense. Once we grasp the way addiction works, it becomes easier to understand what's happened to us and why we feel the way we do.
    I hope u get good news at the appointment.
    The only way to feel better is to get the drugs out of our systems.. Then, as u say, our own bodies will begin again to produce endorphins It takes time but the body and mind will repair themselves.
    You have made the right decision to take control of what has happened. Things will only improve for each of us once we determine that we have to get off the drugs and save our own life!
    Cheering you on over here in the States
    Best wishes to all our good friends in the UK!

  16. #16
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming23 View Post
    Yes Ritchie
    What u say makes perfect sense. Once we grasp the way addiction works, it becomes easier to understand what's happened to us and why we feel the way we do.
    I hope u get good news at the appointment.
    The only way to feel better is to get the drugs out of our systems.. Then, as u say, our own bodies will begin again to produce endorphins It takes time but the body and mind will repair themselves.
    You have made the right decision to take control of what has happened. Things will only improve for each of us once we determine that we have to get off the drugs and save our own life!
    Cheering you on over here in the States
    Best wishes to all our good friends in the UK!
    Thanks Bette.

    And that's a really nice message about you cheering on from the states. Thank you!!
    I actually had an email a couple of months back from the Congressman for Kentucky, Hal Rogers after I contacted him for help to see if he knew anyone that could help me as I know kentucky has been hit big time with the problems caused by Oxycontin. I still say very little is known about it over here compared to the states. And what a great guy Hal seems to be. Wishing me all the best & if there was anything else he could do to let him know etc. I was blown away by his reply!
    From what I saw on the TV last month, a BBC program called Panorama about prescription medication & people who were addicted to it, there were two who had been on high doses of morphine, a dr Stannard from Bristol hospital put them on a methadone maintenance program & the woman patient couldn't praise it enough stating that she had got her life back. To get my life back is all I want, to wake up & feel excited about something, which I have forgot what's that's like.
    My issue Is also my back pain which is why i'll still need something if I come off Oxy. I'm not sure about the methadone route now though after reading about what some have said about it! Guess I'll find out on Tuesday & ill come back here to let you know.
    I'm not trained as a councelor but, once I do get my life back & if my brain ever recovers from the damage Oxycontin has done to it, I would love to be able to help others who are in the position I am in currently.
    Take care
    Ritchie xx
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  17. #17
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritchie2168 View Post
    Thanks Bette.

    And that's a really nice message about you cheering on from the states. Thank you!!
    I actually had an email a couple of months back from the Congressman for Kentucky, Hal Rogers after I contacted him for help to see if he knew anyone that could help me as I know kentucky has been hit big time with the problems caused by Oxycontin. I still say very little is known about it over here compared to the states. And what a great guy Hal seems to be. Wishing me all the best & if there was anything else he could do to let him know etc. I was blown away by his reply!
    From what I saw on the TV last month, a BBC program called Panorama about prescription medication & people who were addicted to it, there were two who had been on high doses of morphine, a dr Stannard from Bristol hospital put them on a methadone maintenance program & the woman patient couldn't praise it enough stating that she had got her life back. To get my life back is all I want, to wake up & feel excited about something, which I have forgot what's that's like.
    My issue Is also my back pain which is why i'll still need something if I come off Oxy. I'm not sure about the methadone route now though after reading about what some have said about it! Guess I'll find out on Tuesday & ill come back here to let you know.
    I'm not trained as a councelor but, once I do get my life back & if my brain ever recovers from the damage Oxycontin has done to it, I would love to be able to help others who are in the position I am in currently.
    Take care
    Ritchie xx
    Hey Ritchie
    LOL Name's Ming not Bette
    I had to kick methadone. I don't care if a million people praise it. It was the Worst thing i ever experienced except for precipitated wds. Over here, we refer to it as "liquid handcuffs." I do not say this lightly.
    The methadone providers always tout its advantages. It's a business, Ritchie.
    Here's exactly what will happen to you, my UK friend, if u get addicted to methadone:
    Loss of sex drive. Gradual numbing of brain and body (you will NOT wake up excited about anything. You will be zombie-fied). Inability to absorb nutrients. Constant gut issues. Need for laxatives. Possible paranoia. Addiction to a very long acting opioid that will leave you on your knees begging God to take you.
    That's just the good parts.
    I kicked methadone using suboxone. Worked very well and today i am drug-free!! Took four months of a slow taper.
    Do you all have suboxone or subutex in UK? Wander over to the Suboxone treatment Forum and read a bit about it. There is a sticky at the top of the sheet that gives the Suboxone Taper plan. It has worked for thousands of us.
    Let me know what you think...
    Hang in there!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-09-2016 at 12:35 PM.

  18. #18
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming23 View Post
    Hey Ritchie
    LOL Name's Ming not Bette
    I had to kick methadone. I don't care if a million people praise it. It was the Worst thing i ever experienced except for precipitated wds. Over here, we refer to it as "liquid handcuffs." I do not say this lightly.
    The methadone providers always tout its advantages. It's a business, Ritchie.
    Here's exactly what will happen to you, my UK friend, if u get addicted to methadone:
    Loss of sex drive. Gradual numbing of brain and body (you will NOT wake up excited about anything. You will be zombie-fied). Inability to absorb nutrients. Constant gut issues. Need for laxatives. Possible paranoia. Addiction to a very long acting opioid that will leave you on your knees begging God to take you.
    That's just the good parts.
    I kicked methadone using suboxone. Worked very well and today i am drug-free!! Took four months of a slow taper.
    Do you all have suboxone or subutex in UK? Wander over to the Suboxone treatment Forum and read a bit about it. There is a sticky at the top of the sheet that gives the Suboxone Taper plan. It has worked for thousands of us.
    Let me know what you think...
    Hang in there!
    Oh Christ - sorry about that ming lol. I'm using my mobile (cell) phone & struggle to read / see everything properly!
    Anyway, the side effects you state are exactly how I am now on Oxy, no sex drive (not had one for over 3yrs!!) It should be killing me not having a sex drive as I used to have a very high sex drive, but the Oxy has taken care of that, ive got no interest at all :-(
    Feeling numb, never ever get excited about doing anything at all.
    Very well done for being drug free, I can only dream of that day.
    From what I can make out, some areas of the UK & this is only if you're a He**in addict, start you off on methadone first & then switch you to Subutex. This is what the councelor at substance misuse told me. She said they won't do it for me because I'm addicted to opiates & not to He**in, I don't understand this as they don't call Oxycontin "Hillbilly He**in" for no reason??
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  19. #19
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Ritchie
    Wow. Is there no option for the patient to self-pay?

  20. #20
    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming23 View Post
    Ritchie
    Wow. Is there no option for the patient to self-pay?
    What, as in going private you mean & paying for any treatment myself?

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    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritchie2168 View Post
    What, as in going private you mean & paying for any treatment myself?
    Yes. Can one go to a doctor and self-pay?

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    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming23 View Post
    Yes. Can one go to a doctor and self-pay?
    Possibly if I could afford too. I think it would cost around £3.5k but I just don't have anywhere near that kind of £

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    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Ritchie
    How's it going? Check out Catrina's threads on Need to Talk snd Presc Drugs. She kivked high doses of pills CT and says it's just One Week of flu-like symptoms!! This might work for you. Reach out to her!!
    Hope ur ok! Post when u can!

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    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Ritchie
    What did u decide?

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    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    [deleted - swearing]
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-28-2016 at 04:00 PM.

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    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Aha! Translate please!

  27. #27
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    Hi there Ritchie!
    I take it from the deleted post your not feeling well. I'm so sorry to hear that! I was hoping you found a doc and some sort solution to your situation. It's absolutely an epidemic everywhere you look and these big pharm companies and docs taking kickbacks are the root of all evil. That and not having a system in place for people wanting help. Reaching out and not having that support is terrible. I hope and pray you can find someone, somewhere who can offer you a helping hand.
    In the mean time we are all here for you anytime. Sometimes just knowing your not alone.
    Keep posting...don't give up. You are strong and will beat this. I know you can. Have faith in yourself.
    Many blessings to you,
    Michelle
    xxoo

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    rosettta34 is offline New Member
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    does anyone know of any suboxone clinics or doctors in kentucky that accept wellcare or medicare? if not what about one i can just pay to get into soon asap and that is close to london ky or hazard ky..thanks

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    Ritchie2168 is offline New Member
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    Posts
    14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Hi there Ritchie!
    I take it from the deleted post your not feeling well. I'm so sorry to hear that! I was hoping you found a doc and some sort solution to your situation. It's absolutely an epidemic everywhere you look and these big pharm companies and docs taking kickbacks are the root of all evil. That and not having a system in place for people wanting help. Reaching out and not having that support is terrible. I hope and pray you can find someone, somewhere who can offer you a helping hand.
    In the mean time we are all here for you anytime. Sometimes just knowing your not alone.
    Keep posting...don't give up. You are strong and will beat this. I know you can. Have faith in yourself.
    Many blessings to you,
    Michelle
    xxoo
    WOW, just found this thread that I had forgot all about starting over 3yrs ago!!
    Just wanna say a great big massive thank you so so so so very very much to all who helped me! Especially you Michelle!!
    You'll all be pleased to know after what was the hardest time of my life, I'm now getting my life back. Been off OxyContin now a couple of years & completely off of all opiates.
    Now looking into helping others who were in a similar position to me, when I was turned away by addiction agencies after being told they couldn't help me.
    Thank you again for your endless support & encouragement when I couldn't see anyway out!
    You're all life savers, God Bless you all!!
    Thank you... Ritchie xxxx
    WifeMotherSister likes this.

  30. #30
    sorcha1 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    3

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    You're one of the lucky ones,I'm trying to get clean.day one,also in Britain(scotland)and have got the end as you did.so inspiring to know you're through it all now and have got yourself sorted,how did you manage it in the end?x

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