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Suboxone To Jump or Not to Jump?
  1. #1
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Default Suboxone To Jump or Not to Jump?

    Ok so I've been reading this forum for over 2 years now along with many other forums on different sites. I feel like this one has the most communal feel of any forum I've read. Also, that it gives the best information. I have never posted once in 2 years so I think its time I give it a try.

    So here it goes...Back in 2008 I started using percocets and liked them so much that every night I partied (almost every night as I was in college) I had to get some percs or the whole night would feel ruined. So then after this opiate seeking behavior began you can imagine what happened. I started to find connections to Oxycontin. I started using around 30 mg a day insuffalated and as my tolerance rose by 6 months I was using an 80 a day. Being a college student I had yo lie or whatever to get my drugs and hated myself for it. But oxycontin had plans for me to keep the party alive until about 2010 when on my college graduation night I had one last adventure doing my normal dose of 120 mg by that point.

    I decided I had no control and had tried the 12 step program via a rehab clinic in 2007 for other drugs such as blow and xanax. I didn't want to see those people again as I was much worse off now. Therefore, I became inducted into suboxone. Started at 16 mg but quickly decided that this dose was way too high and made me sleepy and nasueas. So i quickly brought myself down to around 4 mg which made me feel energetic and I loved it.

    Three months passed and I started working in a highly energy driven retail sales environment, so long story short the subs complemented my job and over the first 2 years i weened down to 1 mg of sub. This past year however which is the 3rd year I have been here i weened down to .5 mg but got stuck for months. I want off bad cuz i want to feel again and not have to act like im laughing all the time with everyone. No connection to people anymore. Not to mention the constipation never subsides even at .5 mg.

    Almost done sorry so long. So 3 days ago i dropped to .25 mg of sub and so far ive been great! However, I am off for the next 6 days from work so i tried to jump last night only taking .125 mg that morning and skipping my .125 dose that night as i had been doing for the 3 days prior to this. Wow! I withdrew hard as hell! I couldn't get the least bit comfortable and finally gave in at 3 am taking that .125 piece.

    My question. ...should i try and make the jump again since i have 6 days off and just power through it? Or should i taper to .125 over my 6 day vacation and jump at a later date from a smaller dose? Been on it for going on 4 years now so would like off asap!

    Thanks guys and sorry so long...
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  2. #2
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Skelo welcome to the forums here and its good to read that you want to get off of subs. Here is why you are having problems right now. You have been at .50 for a long period of time and that is what your body is use to now. With the long half live of subs when you have been taking your .50 dose every day you actually have about 1.4 mg of subs in your system. You were ok for 3 days at .25 because of the long half life. Also by dropping from .5 to .25 you dropped 50% of your dose and that is to high of a dose to drop to. The longer time one has been on subs the slower you have to taper off especially at the end. If you want to have a softer ending when you do drop then here is what I think you should try. I know you want to get off subs asap but from .50 you should have reduced 25% to around .375. I would starting tomorrow go to .33 and dose there and stay there until you feel fully stable. Then I would drop to .25 and get good and stable there and at that point drop to around .18 and repeat. At that point after your good and stable then you could start the skip days. By doing it this way your WD should be tolerable. .5 does not sound like very high of a dose but subs are very powerful. I am just suggesting this as I hate seeing anyone that has been on subs especially for a long period like your self go thru WD like you were talking about. Might take a bit more time then you want but whats a little extra time after years on it. Best wishes to you.

    Alex

  3. #3
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    I think you're right Alex. Its 1 am my time at the moment and I don't feel horrible, but def bad enough that sleeping could be non existent tonight as it has been 22 hours since my last dose of .125 mg.

    So here is another part Im not telling. Before I went on vacation i talked with my wife and we both decided it would be best to just jump off and that it wouldn't be too bad since i would taper to .25 mg 3 days before. Now im here and cant sleep and she is being very encouraging to keep going in a good way but idk if i can keep doing this knowing that i could just taper down like Alex describes to minimize the withdrawal. Will i still have Paws if i taper in this manner? Im afraid that she may say im giving up if i tell her i want to do a taper now. Any suggestions?

  4. #4
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    I could be completely wrong here but being at .5 for months and only .25 for 3 days I would think it would be almost more like jumping from .5 (not .25) since I wouldn't think your body would even be adjusted to .25 yet. . Again I could be 100% wrong.

    I am literally in the same boat as you right now. I was on .375-.5 mg for months. I didn't really get stuck, I made this mistake to just not try, until now that I have Hoefully just enough suboxone to finish it off. My plan was just like alex said. Expect when I dropped to .25 I immediately had trouble sleeping so when back up a few days (so now instead of 12 days at each dose I only have enough to do 7 days per dose).

    I dropped to .25 again, the first 2 nights I had trouble falling asleep, 3rd night I didn't sleep a wink. The 4th and 5th night still had trouble but it got a little easier with each one. Like you during this time I was on vacation for 6 days and contemplated just jumping.

    Done have said if you are already experiencing things maybe just jump! But I feel more comfortable sticking to my plan. Today is my last .25 then I go to .1875 for 7 days, then .125. Then I would like to do .0625 for 7 days before skipping days but we'll see. Again I'm almost out of meds with no way to get more so it could be too fast? We'll see.

    As far as other symptoms I've had none. It just seemed like with this reduction my nervous system freaked! Severe anxiety at night. I got some valerian to help, and I'm also experimenting with an amino acid called taurine, I heard it can lower blood pressure and supposedly also inhibits adreniline and cortisol (which I heard over produce while in withdrawal). So far I think it may help. If you do decide to do this maybe you could try those.

    Bottom line is it is up to you and what you think you feel comfortable doing. If you are really thinking of jumping maybe you could wait it out a tiny bit longer and see how much worse you feel. You could always start the .25 (or like alex said .3 something) and go from there. Even though I had days off I still just felt more comfortable trying to taper lower. But I personally am a total whimp for any withdrawal. Knowing that I figured this was the best course for me.

    it is definitely a hard decision when you know you have time off work now.
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  5. #5
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Skelo like hopesoon pointed out by going from .5 to .25 for just 3 days then trying to jump off with one dose of .125 its like jumping off at .50. if someone does a fairly quick taper jumping at .50 probably is not real difficult but for someone who has been on subs for a long period of time jumping at .50 is probably going to be rather hard. My thoughts on tapering with subs is when you jump you want minimal discomfort. Myself I wanted as soft of a landing as possible because I thought my chances of not relapsing were much better if I had little discomfort. My best wishes to both you and hopesoon on tapering off comfortably as possible.

    Alex

  6. #6
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Hey guys sorry I havent been able to reply for a couple of days.

    Anywho...after 2 nights in a row of breaking down and taking a .125 piece due to severe withdrawals, I decided yo stick with this dose once daily close to bedtime. I have been successful with the .125 plan for 4 days now, but have to endure moderate withdrawal starting from around 4 to my dose around 10. I have found that naturally since we are generally more busy during the day, that I am able to get through the withdrawal symptoms. The first day I dosed right in the beginning of the day for my "last" dose before I attempted the first jump. I fell asleep fine but after 2 hours I woke up feeling extremely uneasy. So try dosing at night once daily. I definitely feel l can make it on .125 with a little more determination because I make myself stay busy during the day. It can be very hard to though sometimes because of the lack of energy.

    Speaking of energy, something that may be helping boost it some as well as my endorphin production is the vitamins and minerals I have tried out. I read on someone's thread a couple weeks ago to take gaba, dlpa, 5-htp, and a good multi vitamin so thats what Ive been doing and I definitely have to say that this major reduction has been much more doable than failed attempts in the past. Could be anything but may be helping some and could be worth a shot for yall to try if on low doses like Hopesoon and I.

    Quick question for everyone too...it seems like im the only one of my friends that experiences certain symptoms so severely. For example, all of my friends (3 people) who have jumped off maintenance suboxone felt low energy, stomach issues, watery eyes, sneezing, but milder rls/general uncomfortableness. See i am opposite-I get this burning emptiness throughout my back and shoulders and become so uncomfortable I have to move constantly and literally drive myself insane. Thats the one symptom I cant handle. Maybe Im just a wimp to withdrawal but I swear they had much milder versions of this symptom. Any help with this would be great. Oh and i even tried xanax which to me exacerbated the symptom.

    If yall have any questions about my attempt to jump or my decrease from .5mg to .125 just ask. Yall have really helped me through this difficult time and I thank all of you. God bless! I finally see a faint light at the end of a long dark tunnel.

  7. #7
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    That is good you are feeling somewhat better. I am going to try and taper as low as I can possibly go and then skip days.
    As far as your vitamins ect that is good. I have read a lot about l-tyrosine too as it helps with neurotransmitter production, a lot of people take it for energy. As with anything it works for some but not all. I also read making sure to get a lot of protein. I am not much of a meat eater so I have been drinking ensure.

    I know what you mean about the neck problem. It is actually what got me back into trouble last time i jumped from suboxone. Before i go further i will disclose that i jumped from 2 mg that time and mentally i was in a bad place. I moved from the east to west coast shortly before my jump. I was 100% completely all alone and knew no one, I didn't even know the area yet. That put me into a depression by itself (that is not the case this time thank goodness). Anyway my neck tightened up and didn't let go for months. Of course the stress of everything else made it worse. There were points where you could see right where my neck cubed down onto my shoulders was swollen. I bought numerous pillows, tried a massage. Nothing worked. I had been in a car accident where the car flipped over but I never got checked out. I thought maybe I never noticed something was wrong being on high dose methadone them suboxone. So I went to the dr. Turns out nothing was wrong, just spasms probably from the stress on my body compounded by the stress and depression I had. Of course I didnt disclose my history so they stated prescribing me opiates and muscle relaxers, which led to buying things on the street again. I really think if my life would have been in a better place it wouldn't have gotten to that point.

    As of now (anytime I try to get off again otherwise I have no problem) I try to be careful about my pillows (not too hard or soft), and try to be careful of how I position my head. The nights I roll around it is definitely worse. I try to be careful of how I stretch it. If you stretch too hard you can hurt it worse. And I know what you mean about it going down your upper back. Sometimes it hurts so bad I don't even want to hold my head up. I notice it is its absolute worse when I sleep on my stomach, so I try to never do that. I take ibuprofen or some nsaid even if it doesn't seem to do anything, at least it is anti-inflammatory.

    It was actually started to bother me bad yesterday so lay evening I put one of those neck roll pillows on (like you see at airports) and kept it on all night, even in bed. My neck did feel better today. For myself I feel it starts with the stress on my body (amd rolling around). After that if I can get the stress in my mind under control and make sure I am very careful with how it is supported when laying down it starts to resolve after a couple days at most. At least that is what happened last time I quit.

    Again if it feels extremely tight (you can feel knots when touching it) be very careful stretching (possibly even massage) can and seems to make it worse. I am assuming this is the same thing. It feels exactly like the muscle is burning! Like you are working it out right then or something. It will start right where my neck and shoulders meet and then progress to my upper back.

    You could also try heat, or hot/cold rotation like a regular muscle injury, although the cold may not be fun if you already have the chills. Maybe also a ben-gay type of thing....

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    hopesoon is offline Member
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    And I see a lot of errors (wrong word and spelling ect). I hope it makes sense!
    Sorry, not only did I type from my phone but I already took sleep meds!

  9. #9
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the reply Hopesoon. Is your neck doing better now? I hope so that sounds horrible!

    My experience is more just waves of negative energy pulsating down my back. It gets so bad I literally can't sit still. When I tried to jump I didn't sit down for 4 hours straight in the middle of the night and I was so tired! I literally drove myself insane going from chairs to sofas to bed over and over! I'm tapering down more before I jump again so I can see if it gets better.

    If its not better you should ask your doctor about a muscle relaxer like soma. It may help with all that tension. I think clonidine may help me but I don't have any. Sometimes I feel like I'm gonna be stuck on this >>>> forever! I got down to .125 mg for 3 days and the withdrawal was too intense so I am now back at .25 mg which is still an improvement I guess from the .5 mg I was on last week. I'll keep ya posted and you do the same for me!

    God bless.
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  10. #10
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    No you won't be stuck forever!! It was just a week and 2 days ago I was still jumping between .375-.5 going up and down every couple days, and not because I needed it! Just because I was still in the mindset of making excuses to take a little more, telling myself I still had time. Next thing I knew I had just enough left to be at a dose of 7 days and get as low as I plan to go. Of course my original plan was 21 days at each dose. I obviously didnt get serious until almost too late. I thought I would be fine but that drop to .25 caused severe anxiety. It seemed to peak around night 3 where I didnt sleep at all, thrn slowly got better. But it still wasnt gone when I had to drop to .1875 on saturday. I would have preferred to have more than 6 days at .25! My first day at .1875 I started with some sweating and chills, anxiety still wasn't gone. I then thought Oh god this is going to get bad not being able to stay at each dose as long as I want. Day 2 still had some chills and sweating but anxiety was gone. That was the day my neck clenched. I went to bed with my airport neck roll. Day 3 neck better, child's and sweating gone but the lazy feeling still there, I had to make myself move at work multiple times. Day 4 I already feel 100% myself. 3 days before that I had myself prepared and convinced I was going to feel that way the rest of the taper (because i have no choice of 7 days per dose)and then some. I really feel I can do this now!

    Of course you may take longer than me to adjust but if you have enough needs to do it take all the time you need. I just have a feeling (if you make sure you are stable at .25 first) you'll do your next decrease and realize I can do this, it's not going to be that bad. It's easy to get discouraged when it doesn't go as fast as you want it to or are trying to push it. If you have enough to do it I would next go to .1875, then .125, and lower if you want! And I wouldn't spend any less than 7 days at each dose, a little longer if needed.

    Yes hopefully my neck doesn't do that again! I have learned now to never ever sleep on my stomach, and my neck roll pillow thingseemsto support it well and help. The last time I think stress made I worse. Then I was using different pillows (one being a brick hard memory foam one) or no pillows. I was trying too much! And I was stretching my head side to side as hard as I could which I now know hurts muscles worse when they are that tight. I think it rips them or something, I forget. The last time after the initial stress to my body was over it went away.

    I have no idea about your back. You couldn't even sit down. That would be horrible, especially when you probably felt like you could barely stand.

    And think of it this way you went up to .25 but that is HALF of what you were at about a week or so ago. Like I said before, I don't think your body would have adjusted to the 3 days of .25 before your jump. So you may now soon be adjusted to half of what you were like a week ago!!!!

  11. #11
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Thats a very positive message and one I greatly needed! Thank you. Yesterday was rough. I withdrew all day. Felt very revved up. Sooooo much yawning! Lol sorry. Im in a much better mood today and stuck to the .25 and can already feel some stabilization occuring. I hope i have 3 more days like today then on to .1875! I like your method Hope! 7 days. I got plenty of meds cause i cut my dose in half this month. Thanks for all your inspiration and support.

    Im happy for you getting through this as well. Are you still feeling better than you were before? Also what dose are u at now cuz i knoe you said you were running low on subs. I hope uou were able to taper and it wasnt too intense!

    I tell ya whats exciting....with every drop in dosage and each day that passes I feel more human. Its such a crazy phenomenon. I work with people all day and i got to the point where i was a robot. Regurgitating answers to their questions, etc. Now i listen to them and connect with them. I help them way more than before just naturally. We arw truly blessed to be so close to having our freedom Hope! Hang in there!

    God bless!

  12. #12
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    Yes, I work with people all day too. I can feel myself becoming more talkative and seem to be in a better mood as of the past several days! Yes thank goodness I pulled this together soon enough to have enough sub, at least I should! I have 1 more day at .1875, then to .125 for 7 days! At that point I was going to drop to .0625 but today I got to thinking about that being a 50% drop. So now I'm thinking I'll do .08-.09 (whatever it comes out to) for 4 days in between, I'm going that will be long enough to transition. At that point I'll have 13 .0625 doses. I'll do the .0625 for 7 days then have six remaining to do the skips days, I figured 6 just in case I only make it 36 hours instead of 48 the first time etc. At that point I'll have .5 mg left which I wanted just in case I need to add a day somewhere. Also I know me and if I'm forced I'll freak! As soon as I know I can't do something I go crazy, so I'd like to have some left at the end which I'll get rid of after a couple days and am mentally comfortable. It probably isn't a good idea for some people though! The key for me will be not keeping it around too long.

    That is good you think you're starting to get used to .25. Hopefully you can drop when you plan to. But if you have more than enough sub stay longer if you have to. My first plan was to be at each dose for 21 days, then I changed it to 14 days, and then to 7. I kept changing it as I pushed my taper back based on what I had left. I knew I didn't want less than 7 days so that's when I got serious! Made me a little scared though when I realized I should have made myself start sooner! Take it day by day, the day before you drops if you're not quite sure just add one more day and see how you feel.

    Today was my test mentally! Yesterday I felt amazing in every way and the day went well. Today at work everything that went wrong went wrong, it was a frustrating day. A couple hours before I was off I felt exhausted, probably from all the frustration. That is when I realized wow, this is always sneak away and take just a little more. And today I didn't have that urge, I just thought about it enough to realize wow, I've come along way in 2 weeks!

    I have been taking l-tyrosine I had from before. People take it for energy after they quit, but it is also for neurotransmitter production so I figured I'd start it now at the normal dose (the thomas recipe for withdrawal calls for more for energy). The times I previously took it I didn't notice it helping with energy during withdrawal, but I don't think I took add much as the thomas recipe says. Anyway I didn't take it today but after I felt exhausted I took one, like am hour later I felt great! It could have been a coincidence or I never took enough to help lethergy after withdrawal but the small dose worked today because I wasnt in withdrawal. Here's to hoping it does actually work! That is the part that wears me down after several weeks.

    And last but not least I felt so good yesterday I decided to go to bed last night without all the benedryl, valarien etc I was taking. I fell asleep on my own and stayed asleep!!!! I am just so excited how quickly things are getting better! Last week I was fully convinced and prepared to feel a least slightly bad the rest of the way. Of course I'm expecting to still have a rough day here or there so I don't end up disappointed, but at least it won't be every day!!!

    Hopefully things go as well for you, my whole week at .25 was my rough spot too and I actually would have stayed there another day or 2 if I could. I know you want to get this done with but you have enough sub, stay as long as you need. Not rushing will make the end easier.

    I am glad I feel well for myself of course, but also for you (as strange as that sounds). Our situations are fairly similar, and I'm only maybe a week ahead of you. I know how terrified I was so hopefully this helps you. I'm sure it's nice to see someone doing your next step right before you!

  13. #13
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    So good to hear that you are doing well at lower doses. And yes, I must admit that its nice having someone 1 week ahead of me so thanks for the insight. Your plan is sound so I think you will be fine. Hopefully the day you jump you won't even notice the difference.

    For me I had an ok day. Could have been because sales were down and have been all month. Stressful. I have almost adjusted to this dose. Let me tell you how I am dosing and what time of day because I need some advice.

    I wake up usually around 8 to 9 and head to work. I take my first dose around 11. By this point I am in moderate withdrawal and low on energy. Within 30 minutes of dosing .125 ( half of my daily dose) I feel much better and energized. Work finishes out around 6 and I go home have dinner and watch some TV or some other activity. Around 9 I start feeling withdrawals creep in and by 12 to 1 which is bedtime, I feel pretty lousy so I take my 2nd dose of .125 and go to sleep. If awoken by anything from 6 am to 9 am I have trouble getting back to sleep due to slight withdrawal. Tossing and turning. I do think some of that could be in my head tho because if I wake up I immediately have a fear that I will be in withdrawal and will not be able to return to sleep. Usually I get back to sleep after an hour then wake up feeling kinda blah but I expect that. We addicts haven't awoken feeling well rested in years!

    Anyhow, that's where I am at currently. I have tried doing once daily but I only feel relief for like 8 hours of the day when I do that. When dosing 2x I get around 12 to 16 hours of relief.

    All in all, I feel like I never cut my dose in half just last week so I guess I am doing well! Hope you keep driving! You definitely have a great plan in place!

  14. #14
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    Just out of curiosity, have you always taken your dose more than once per day or just since you got this low? If it is just a recent thing maybe it's just because you are still not adjusted yet, otherwise it could be because that is what you are used to doing. Maybe at some point you can get back to once per day if that's what you did previously. I had been in the habit of taking a little piece whenever I felt like it (hence the .37-.5 range), then when I got serious and dropped to .25 I tried once per day. I mostly only had severe anxiety that week and couldn't sleep so I try a day of split dosing but it didnt help me sleep or the anxiety so I went back to once per day. Mostly because I want to get doses lower than most people taper, .125 would have been about the last point I would have been able to get it small enough to split dose. (Which would be .0625 mg 2x per day). If it would have helped me I would have continued split dosing. The .125 is the lowest I see most people stop, so that wouldn't be a problem if you plan to stop there or have the 2 mg strips or pills it will be easier (I have the 8mg). When I wake up I do start to feel weird, I let myself wake up then take my dose soon after.

    I definitely seems you aren't quite as stable as I would want to be, maybe you should spend more time than 7 days or whatever you were hoping. I wouldn't suggest going up though since you feel you are improving, I know you didn't mention it or seem to think about going up but I figured I'd mention my thoughts on it! Any time I'm on low dose, or after I stop taking it I seem to always wake up right after it is light out, no matter what time I would go to bed. Maybe that is why if you wake up around that time you cant fall back asleep easily? Or maybe as you said it's because you are expecting to feel bad. Also any time I've been on low dose or after I quit I always feel like >>>> in the morning, and it seems like it takes me longer to wake up, feel better etc than when I am on a med at a more normal dose. I don't know if that has anything to do with how you feel when you wake up.

    To me I feel maybe you shouldnt quite drop yet (if I recall you wanted to drop soon). I'm not saying stay along time, just take it day by day, maybe if you add just a few more days you'll be feeling perfect!

    And dont worry, I wont be too far ahead of you if you hang around this dose as I have some good/ bad news! Well it's good for me!! I now how some more subs so I wont have to rush myself. I feel pretty darn good compared to how I could feel but I think I could benefit for a little more time here. I was supposed to drop tomorrow. I don't plan to hang around here along time, I'm just going to take it day by day. Now I could even take as long as my original plan if I want (which was 21 days each dose), but if I don't need to I won't (I really dont think I'll need that long at each dose) I'm not feeling to bad so it's not like it's a huge weight of my shoulders but it does make me a little more comfortable.

    I'm definitely not going back to my old habits of taking a piece when I feel like it, that will just bring me right back to rushing myself again. I am kind of excited to get this over with, but I want to make sure I do it right and comfortably. I know your ready to get this done too but don't get discouraged if you have to take a little more time than planned. Be comfortable, that is what will make it easier for us in the end and there is nothing wrong with that!!

    Here's to hoping you feel a little better yet again tommorow!

  15. #15
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Yeah i want to get down to one dose a day so I dont rely on it so much, but i seem to stay out of withdrawal much better breaking it into 2 doses. I do have the 2 mg strips so it makes it better. Have you ever tried clonidine to help with withdrawal? If so does it help?

    I definitely think you are right about not rushing it as this will give my brain and body longer to adjust between each drop and hopefully minimize the PAWS afterwards. I heard PAWS can be a lingering nightmare but that a good taper can minimize them as well. Also i have seen where people start skipping doses at .125 per day but I agree with you that if u can go one step further to .0625 then skip doses we will be better off. Having the 2 mg strips makes it much easier to cut this small. I am so glad you are feeling much better and I feel confident that you will succeed with your plan. Its really not too aggressive as we feared it would be with the lack of subs you had left. I think you do have enough and maybe it will help you stay on target as well knowing you have to keep making progress. I will keep you posted about my daily progress as this has truly helped me stay accountable. Keep putting in the good fight Hope!
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    hopesoon is offline Member
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    Well have if have to take it twice a day, you have to. It not that big of a deal, especially when you have the 2 mg strips i wouldn't think it would be a problem. I only have the 8 mg it would have been much harder for me to get down as low as I want to go and having to sort the dose even smaller. Of course you never know, once you feel perfect at this dose maybe you could dose one per day. But if not, you'll be fine. Even with the 8 mg strips I would have been able to split dose until I got to .0625 per day, at that point I can't get them smaller, or it would be very very hard? Since you have the smaller ones you should be fine (I will say I've never seen a 2mg strip, is there a size difference between the 2 and 8?)

    I tried clonidine once about 10 years ago. My primary care Dr prescribed it and xanex for while I waiting to get into the sub dr (the first time I got on subs). I had to wait over a week to get into the sub dr. I only remember taking it one night that I couldn't my doc. There was also a third med but I can't remember what it was, whatever it was was uncommon. I had to go to several pharmacies to get the script filled because a lot of them didn't carry it. Anyway that one night I took all three of the meds, I pedialyte at the time remember as far as I was concerned the they didn't do a darn thing! I was pretty sick though.

    There is also the possibility of it made me feel worse because I already have low blood pressure, just 2 night ago I took it and it was 106/70, that is probably the high end of normal for me! So maybe that is why it didn't help, or because I was really sick. I thought about trying it again, as this jump I shouldn't be very very sick so maybe it would help, I have heard good things about it that can't be disputed. I just have a feeling with my blood pressure a dr won't prescribe it for me again.

    I do know it can help for anxiety. A dr prescribed them to my husband for his anxiety (he has an anxiety/panic disorder). It is unconventional, but my husband refused to take a benzo as he works construction and thought it would be dangerous. He also refused to restart any ssri's (zoloft etc) because they make his anxiety 100x worse the first couple weeks. I actually got the idea for the clonidine, the dr liked in some little book then said this might work. It did!

    I have also heard good things about gabapentin for withdrawal. I actually have some of that here, I think I'm going to try that when I jump. I know it can help with the anxiety, I'm not sure what else it help with but some people thinks it helps alot. When looking it up I swear I read a previous study on the combo of gabapentin and clonidine for opiate withdrawal. The results were they worked better together than just clonidine alone. If you were thinking about asking your dr for clonidine I would bring up both.

    How are you feeling at your dose now? You are right about doing it slow. I have actually read several stories about people that would spend a month at each low dose, then at the end do the skip days, and then they had no problem at all getting off. Virtually no problems except a little anxiety, maybe a little sleep trouble. That is why my original plan had 21 days at each dose. I guess there is no right way to do it as long as you go down and never up. 7 days is the absolute quickest I would ever want to decrease, and I feel that's pushing it for people that have been on sub a while. That is why I keep telling you to take as many days as you need to feel comfortable.

  17. #17
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Well I was wondering avout the clonidine as my friends coming off subs were prescribed it but they never took it. As you already know, my worst symptom is the on edge jump right out of my skin feeling! I can handle all the other symptoms but that one! Of course, i did try to jump at .5mg basically so this taper should help with that. Can I get gabapentin at the vitamin shop? I have read that it can be helpful through many forums as well.

    Yesterday, i was in a bit more withdrawal but made myseld tough through it. However, when i went to take my morning dose this morning i noticed that i did not cut my dose correctly. I basically took only .2 yesterday instead of .25 estimated of course. Needless to say i didnt take the whole other half cuz it would have been .3ish and like you said never want to go up. I did well today with my normal .25. Felt great actually. Laughed a lot and am only feeling very minor withdrawals now before my bedtime dose. I am going to take my time because I want to give my brain time to heal before lowering to the next dose. I could see how a month is optimal. As long as I stick to the plan i should be at .1875 before long.

    How are you doing with your taper? I think tapering can really keep us from experiencing such a long PAWS period after we jump. We are basically healing our brain as we go along instead of jumping abruptly and waiting several months for this to happen. At least I hope so! I quit oxys one time and got through the acute phase. I made it 12 days but the PAWS just lingered on and on so finally i relapsed. This is what I hope we are minimizing! Whats your thoughts? Will we have lingering issues after all the sub is finally out of our system or will we be 90% of the way there when we make the jump due to the long taper?

  18. #18
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    No unfortunately gabapentin is a prescription. It is used for epilepsy, and they give it to people with nerve pain (like fibromyalgia I think, although it is not an opiate at all). They gave a script to my husband when he left detox for alcohol for anxiety. I just came across how it is given for opiate withdrawal too. I can't remember what all it helps with. If you have access to clonidine I would try it. Like I said the one time I took it for that I was really sick. It is a definite and can help with anxiety, and people say it helps with chills, sweating, and possibly sleep too. Depending how long you take it you have to taper down though, just because your blood pressure can spike as it is a blood pressure med. I'll have to see if I can find anything about when it would be necessary to tastier it, like if it is related to how much you take and for how long exactly. If you take gabapentin for a period is the same thing, with it being and epilepsy med you could have a seizure after suddenly stopping. I'm not quite sure if someone took either med for just say like a week if that would be necessary. I would definitely try the clonidine though, you may only end up needing it at night to try and sleep! Well let's hope that is all the worse you'll feel at the end!

    I would definitely think tapering would minimize if not eliminate paws. I really think you should get some l-tyrosine from gnc or somewhere similar. My bottle says take 1 500 mg tablet once per day, and it says it is for neurotransmitter production. Get one that has vitamin b-6 in it, you need b-6 for it to work correctly. People also take it for energy after they quit but in higher doses than that, I think the thomas recipe says up to 1500-2000 mg, I'm not positive so don't quote me on that but it does say you can take more than what the bottle says. A high protein diet is also highly suggest when tapering/quitting. And exercise is very important as it gets your endorphins going, even if you can only muster up the energy to just take a walk. Music releases edorphins too. I think when someone takes there time tapering and does all of these thing paws will be minimal, probably non-existant! I think people may really have problems if they previously had depression that should be treated. If you would happen to have some depression you could try st johns wart which helps. I hear people talk about it for this, and I did try it years ago. You could even start it before just in case. I honestly think at worst for us (after the first week) it may seem like it's a little harder to fall asleep for a little bit and maybe some lethargy, and I don't think it will be that way for months-years. From what I've noticed from my past is it seems like the more traumatic the acute phase is the longer lingering troubles stick around.

    I now have enough meds to extend this taper out. I'm considering going back to my original plan of 21 days at a dose. I don't know if I can get my pieces small enough but I would love to be able to get down to .03 before skipping days. I just keep thinking about how much longer it will take that way, but if it will help I'll do it!

    The first time I got off methadone I was on 105 mg for 3 years. I did a comfortable taper to 1 mg, I didn't have the choice of doing days because of the clinic. When I jumped I didnt feel much of anything, I just felt a little cloudy headed and weird for a few days. I think I had to take otc meds to have an easier time falling asleep for maybe a week but once I fell asleep I was asleep for the night! I don't even know if you could consider it hard to fall asleep for a normal person. I did not start using because of paws or anything, just the fact that I was still fairly young and stupid, I though I could use once or so and be fine. Anyway, from what I've tried to look up that .0625 or less would easily equal 1 mg of methadone (probably less) and we have the luxury of doing days at the end. I think and hope this should be comparable, it can't be much worse if it is!

  19. #19
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Oh man i wish i could get gabapentin as Ive read that its great for rls which is my worst symptom. I think om just going to ask my Dr for a script of clonidine next time i go in. Im sure he will prescribe it.

    Thats good that you have enough sub to taper 21 days. Hopefully as we have mentioned before, you will taper nice and easy and forget to take it one day.i think im going to grab some of that l tyrosine as it seems to come highly recommended. You should google DLPA. Im taking it right now and its supposed to help with the basic building blocks of our damaged neurotransmitters. Im definitely going to grab some l tyrosine tho.

    Oh and if you were able to kick a 105 mg methadone habit i think you will do great kicking these subs. Getting on this forum has kept me extremely accountable which is what I needed as if i was having a bad day i would take a little piece just to get by. Now im toughing my way through it. Keep pushing. We are so close!

  20. #20
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    Well if you're going to ask you dr for clonidine you could always bring up the gabapentin (neurotonin) too. Just googling gabapentin and opiate withdrawal brought up that study pretty quick about using both together with better results. Maybe you could have that page pulled up on your phone to show him (or her).

    I'll have to look into that dpla. Like I said with the l-tyrosine, I notice it giving me energy now when i take 1 like the bottle says but when I quit before I didnt notice anything. But I didn't take it like the thomas recipe says, which says try 2000 mg scaling up or down depending on how you feel and you can take up to 4000 mg a day. I only took 500 mg like the bottle says, maybe 1000. Just keep that in mind. You shouldn't need that much until after you jump though.

    I know, you would think if I tapered from 105 mg of methadone to 1 mg after several years without many problems it shouldn't be too bad. I was about 10 years younger then though, in my early 20's. I don't know if that will make a difference. When I jumped off sub at 2 mg before it seemed way different. I had the usual withdrawal except I felt exhausted and could sleep. In fact I couldn't get enough sleep! I would sleep 12 hours and when my alarm went off I still felt exhausted. That part was the exact opposite of any time I've been in withdrawal before, and is completely different from this taper. I don't know what the deal with that was. I was also on methadone a 2nd time only up to 70 mg max. I tapered down about a year ago. It probably wild t have been that bad had I not taken a naltexone just to see what would happen. That's why I think if I can taper this sub down to about equivilent of 1 mg of methadone I'll be fine!

    I know what you mean about feeling more accountable being on this forum. Twice in the past 6 months or so I was in the same position of barely having enough to finish my taper (not as slow as I wanted to anyway) and I'd push myself and get down low to about .25 or so. Then I'd get more and go back up, not because I needed to just because I could and then I would once again end up in the same position. When I got more the other day the thought crossed my mind but I'm not going to do this again and end up low on meds for the third or fourth time. I definitely think this forum helped with that!

  21. #21
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Hey Hope sorry I havent been able to reply. Ive been stuck working the late shift the last 2 nights! So glad thats over. Anywho...

    Do you think my sub dr would prescribe gabapentin? Thats a good idea about showing him my phone.

    I still am having a little lingering withdrawal on .25 but its getting better. Something i want to ask you is do you ever completely stabilize on a dose? Basically once you have been on a dose for a few weeks or so do you still go into withdrawal even a little bit throughout your day at any point? Because even when i was on higher doses i still feel withdrawal even after being on a dose for months at a time. Its like after I dose, i get 8 hours until i begin to withdraw again. I mean i feel great for 8 hours approximately then feel mild symptoms until i dose again which is every 12 hours so therefore i withdraw around 4 to 8 hours a day. Kinda sucks!

    And i am happy for you that you got more so you can do your taper exactly the way you want to. Doing it the way you have it planned in your mind will help because as long as you stick to the plan you can track your progress and place it in a timeline. Celebrate the victories!

  22. #22
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    I typed a reply last night but it didn't work. I don't know if your Dr will prescribe gabapentin, but it's worth a shot. I'm pretty sure it's not as bad as even prescribing a benzo, I really don't know what the problem would be. But I know how some dr's are when you you specifically ask for something when the already know they are dealing with an addict. Like I said, do your research and have the study and info to show him when you go. You would think he would realize is a good option. Heck I've heard of some that do presribe a benzo for the jump, and I would think a dr would be more likely to prescribe gabapentin than that! And it could be possible that they don't know about how gabapentin does seem to help some people for that.

    Luckily this time I was mostly on 1-2 mg the whole time so I didn't have far to taper. I experienced nothing until .25, but I think because I wasnt on a consistent dose before dropping to .25 is why I experienced problems then. You should be stable before dropping again but if that is how you had been feeling for a while then that might be as good as you're going to get. You could always stay at this dose longer to see if it improves.

    I was dosing more than once per day but not because I felt withdrawal. I would just decide to take some I guess. When I got really serious about my taper (when I got to .25) I dosed once per day. I ran into a little trouble so tried dosing twice per day but it made no difference so went back to once a day. The symptoms I was having were constant either way. That being said I have noticed I do seem to have an easier time tapering than others. Even with methadone I remember hearing many people starting to have trouble at doses considerably higher than I did. I didn't even feel any discomfort from that until maybe 5 mg, as opposed to others starting when they got to the range of 20-30.

    I have heard of people that are so used to taking their split doses at certain times and a couple hours before their next dose they feel withdrawal. When they would try not to take it they would get on hour or so past their dose time and realize they felt fine. It was like their body or mind was so accustomed to split dosing, then when their mind realized they weren't giving in it was fine. It was more of a mental thing than physical although they thought it was physical. Anyway they would be able to dose once a day after they broke the habit. I have no idea if it could be that or maybe your body metabolizes these lower doses a quickly. It is hard to say.

    It would hurt to stay at this dose longer to see if things improve at all, and if they don't then drop. Either way hang in there! Hopefully you get some time to relax over the weekend.

  23. #23
    Skelo is offline New Member
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    Ok i think im going to ask the Dr for sure about the gabapentin. Like you said, its not as bad as asking for valium or xanax. I will let ya know how it goes. I should be going to see him next week.

    I cant tell for sure if its physical or mental dosing twice per day. I definitely know there is a major mental aspect there. I have had friends who could taper and handle withdrawal much better than me as well. Maybe Im just a wimp when it comes to this! I seem to be much more sensitive to changes in my body than most people. Never liked stimulants because they caused panic attacks for me. I also think that I will do anything to keep from having a bad day and lets face it, withdrawal doesnt make for a good day. However, i have learned that I cant expect every day to turn out great. Even non addicts have rough days. I have definitely learned how to deal with life's lemons much more effectively without drugs while on subs.

    I think you're right about some people having a tougher mental time than physical. Im still on .25 and plan to drop down soon to .1875. Hope your taper is going well!

  24. #24
    feefingirl is offline New Member
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    Hi Hope and Skelo, I just joined this group after reading through a number of forums and finally finding you two - thank goodness - who have similar situations to mine. I have only been on subs for nearly 4 months and want to end this before it gets worse. When I first started taking subs (got a handful from a friend) it made a huge difference in my life. I had been very ill for several months and was still feeling pain, lethargy, depression, all the while looking for a full time job and working part time. The same week I landed a great full time job, I started taking the subs and I felt better than I had in months. I felt like myself. The problem has been: I cant keep getting free subs from my well-meaning friend AND I have noticed that the meds have unwanted side effects - mainly I feel foggy and have short term memory loss. I have a huge job in healthcare with a lot of responsibility, heavy work load and I have to be on top of my game. I have been starting to slide at work and am not sure what's going on but I am going though menopause, taking anti-depressants and a couple other meds (as well as about 2 mg subs a day). My boss, who is wonderful, asked me to take some time off to take care of myself and either come back to work fully functioning or decide to do something else. Regardless of my decision, I now have time to d/c the subs and take on the withdrawl. I have asked my friend to stop giving them to me and have about 13 'shards' in my possession, each about .5. I am debating stopping them now cold turkey while I have time off. I could taper and let this go on for 2-3 weeks longer but then I don't want to be back at work or at a new job and going through wd. Your input and help would be greatly appreciated! My husband is available to help me with whatever I decide. I have an appt. with a pain specialist on 9/23 but I will no doubt run out before then, or at least be at a very minute amount if I taper slowly. At that point I don't want the doctor to put me back on the subutex! I have gabapentin (which, by the way, I have been taking for about 1 year for rls and it helps tremendously for restlessness and relaxes me for sleep), I have the sleep medication Trazadone (which may be causing my brain fog as well - maybe even the bigger culprit in the short term memory loss) and I take a high blood pressure med that's a B2 receptor blocker (reduces anxiety and the "fight or flight" response). I also take Viibryd, an ssri anti-depressant which I am wondering is losing its efficacy. Yes, I know - I need to see a doctor! Long story short - I want to stop the subutex because it could be the cause of my loss of mental capacity. What do y'all think?? Your feedback is appreciated!

  25. #25
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    Sorry, I have been busy lately and I ran out of my alloted internet on my phone. Good, you're going to ask your dr for gabapentin, I don't know of a good reason to say no bit who knows with dr's. When it comes to withdrawal, oddly I am to taper easier than most but when I do feel anything I am a bigger whimp than most! There are times I know I felt way worse in the past yet the present still seems to be the end of the world. The one thing I do is while I'm tapering, or anytime I think I feel bad I push myself not to take any and tell myself things like "you're an idiot, you feel fine, get over it and get moving" then push myself to go about normally telling myself I'm fine the whole time. That is when I can tell the difference to if it's mental or physical it seems. If it's mental it eases or goes away, if not it doesn't. Have you dropped to .1875 yet or still on .25? How are you feeling at either? I'm still at the same, probably taking this way slower than needed!

    feefingirl, are you still at 2 mg or less now? I jumped from 2 mg about 8 years ago, it was not fun! Of course it wasn't the best time in my life to jump either. Other people have done it and succeeded, it wasn't fun but I think other things in my life at the time is why it failed. There is no doubt about it that tapering would be more comfortable though, it is definitely a plus that you haven't been on it that long. I know you said you told your friend not to give you more but it might make it better if you could get just a couole more to make this more comfortable. If you can't get more try and see what is the lowest you can take and feel comfortable at. Keep in mind most people don't feel ill effects for several days after decreasing their dose. Either way you can do this!

  26. #26
    feefingirl is offline New Member
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    Thank you for your reply Hopesoon! Well, things are different now. First, I quit my job. I know the stress of the job would have prevented me from going and staying off this drug. Now I am fully prepared to focus on going through wd and getting better. I have been tapering for a full week, taking about .25 (at most - they were tiny shards of 8mg sublingual tabs - maybe the size of a Grape Nut cereal?). I took my last one yesterday. My friend - who lives about 30 mins away - offered to give me more if I get desperate. But I really really don't want to get more. I already feel icky but not horrible. Just an all over ache, headache, a little queasy, kind of like when I am coming down with a flu. Of course, I still have plenty in my system (also I took 2 vicodin this morning just so I could get out of bed) so I know I am nowhere near feeling as bad as I will in a few days. I already have gabapentin and trazadone. This is it, I am jumping off now. Thanks for connecting with me, I feel utterly alone with this. I am seeing a new pain doc on 9/23 and if all goes ok I will be clean of subutex and out of the dark woods by then. I want to be able to go back to work in October. I am really scared. I am scared of pain and suffering ( I am a whimp too!), I am scared of feeling crummy all the time and it making me depressed, therefore affecting my close relationships. I am scared of drug and alcohol seeking (I used to self medicate with vicodin stolen from family members and alcohol). I am scared of not feeling well enough to find and hold down a new job. It is those fears that make me question whether I should stop using subutex. I function well on it, but I don't like the side effects or the possibility of being on it for the rest of my life. And anyway what doctor is going to prescribe it to me just because I say it makes me function better? There is really not legitimate medical reason for me to be on it. Tell me, are you taking this medication under medical supervision, or just getting it from your own private source? That makes a difference, to me, in how I use it (or will use it). Thank you again, so much, for your communication. My name is Michelle by the way.

  27. #27
    feefingirl is offline New Member
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    Hi Skelo, how are you doing? Did you see the doc and get some gabapentin? Are you still dosing at .25 or have you been tapering down, or have you stopped it by now? I am very sensitive to physical sensation too and I feel very uncomfortable at the low dose I have been on for at least a week (around .25). I took my last dose yesterday and I expect to be in pretty bad shape in a few days. I cant handle stimulants either! Hope to hear from you soon. Michelle

  28. #28
    hopesoon is offline Member
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    Is good that if things get too bad you can get more. I know you really want to quit taking it but you might be making it rougher than it needs to be. Since you've jumped already try it and see how it goes, you may get lucky and it works out. It has been done before, your willpower might be strong enough! But if for some reason you can't make it don't make it don't take more than the .25 you were taking the last week and go from there. People jump off at .25 all of the time, my only concern it how quick you got to the .25 before that. Also not having more right there, but knowing you can get it might help you mentally, at least it would me. As soon as I know something is out of the question I freak out, having an option makes me take things in stride sometimes.

    Like I said, if it gets too much and you have to take a small dose again is not the end of the world. At that point just taper more and it will/should be easier. But it may not come to that, you may just make it! And if it does get bad you should be through the worst of it by October, by then there might be done lingering symptoms but you should be able to work. I didn't miss a day of work when I jumped from 2mg after somewhere around 2-3 years on it. It wasn't fun at all but I did it.

    The first time I was prescribed it from a Dr, this time I'm not. This time I've taken way less of it than when it was actually prescribed to me. If you found a sub dr that had an opening you could get it prescribed to you, as you are already taking it (even though not from a dr). As you said you don't want to continue taking it so I wouldn't suggest it. Most seem to make people take too much and some try not to want people to ever quit taking it. In the worst case you can get more, and starting back at a low dose you wouldn't need too much more to taper down with.

  29. #29
    feefingirl is offline New Member
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    Hi Skelo,
    Just wanted to chat w you and see how you're doing. I just jumped from .25 (for a week). I was doing ok on .25 and could have stayed there but ran out and avoided driving 30 minutes to my sourest to get more. I can get more if I want but I was only on subs for 4 months and figured that if I ever wanted to get off this junk now was the time since I quit my job. I have enough resource to not work again for a few weeks and really want to feel well enough to stay opiate free but from past behavior I'm fearful of drug seeking again. I'm only 3 days off and can relate to your experience of wd as I get the same all over creepy feeling and restlessness, as well as just not wanting to move because my body hurts all over. The headaches are the worse. Hope to hear from you! Michelle

  30. #30
    sn79 is offline New Member
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    Here is my story. I had been on 1 to 2 8 mg subs a day for 4 years. Sometimes 3 or 4 a day. I got cut off cause my Dr retired and my last refill wouldn't go thru. Since September 4th I've had a 8 mg total for the entire time. Haven't had anything since this past friday. My knees and restless leg have been the worst. My family dr gave me trazadone for sleep, librium for nerves and mirapex for restless leg and it's not helping. I have missed my last 7 days of work. I just want to have energy and feel normal again. I have to get back to work b4 I lose my job. So far they've been cool with me but I don't know how much longer. Any ideas of vitamins that u can take to boost your energy and reduce the withdrawal symptoms?

    Thanks

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