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Switched to Suboxone from Methadone
  1. #31
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukcat5fan View Post
    Ive been reading some of the taper experiences from other people and most of them say that the reason they suffered all the way through the taper is because of the induction was too high. That's really scaring me because I was ignorant to this fact and inducted at 8 mg after 72 hours of methadone, then 16 mg, then I think I even did 20 mg the next day because I was so scared of the withdrawal. I really hope that I didn't really screw myself for success. After being on methadone for almost 15 yrs and doing a rapid detox from 80- 40 mg before inducing, I just assumed, like I said, out of ignorance that I needed that much. I haven't even been to a doctor yet for my subs (just getting them through a friend).

    My last dose of methadone was 10 days ago and I'm desperately trying to stable my sub dose to 6 mg. It has been so difficult. Randy even mentioned stopping the subs and reinducing at a lower dose. That scares the complete >>>> out of me to do that again but I also don't want to suffer all the way down my taper because of it. So, I don't know what to do. My mood is just the worse. I'm just always so angry, sad, and depressed that I can't stand it. I'm snapping on my wife and child for nothing and I just can't do that. I'm not sleeping, I'm just miserable constantly. I'm not in complete withdrawal but I'm not stable yet either or I think my mind would be a bit better. I know that after 15 yrs of methadone that I'm sure I've done some major damage to my brain. Everyone says to have patience but it's so hard when you suffer everyday. I just don't know what do do. I don't want to suffer through the entire taper but I'm scared of reinducing also.

    What should I do Randy? Cat? Im ok with doing this taper but I have to be able to function and not be a complete jerk to everyone. Im crying all the time. I'm so confused and ignorant on how to go about doing this. It's so overwhelming. Please help me!! I know I have to somehow do this but I'm so scared. Is it necessary for me to reinduce? I really hope not. Please Help!


    Ukat5fan -

    The induction IS the most crucial part of sub therapy. For a pleasant experience on subs it MUST be performed correctly. With that said I again suggest you redo the induction, in part. You don't need to stop the sub for 72 hours as you did previously, or go into full blow wd's, but you should stop taking them for at least 1 day, and possibly 2 days to allow some of the sub that's built up in your system to dissipate.

    What's happeneing now is you're not stable due to PERHAPS taking the sub too soon after stopping the methadone, and you're still not stable, but you keep taking sub on a daily basis. It's building in your system and keeping you from feeling your best. Doesn't it make sense to let some of the sub clear out before you resume taking it? Does to me. I would stop taking the subs for as long as you can hold out, the longer the better obviously. If you can make it longer than 2 days it will be in you favor. Again, I know that's a frightening thought.

    I'm telling you what I would do if it were me in your situation. I would do exactly as I've explained. I also help others in NA and AA meetings that are taking Suboxone and in your very same place. Some get subs from friends and take huge doses at induction thinking that the more sub they take the better. Others go to unknowledgeable sub doctors that place them on mammoth doses of 16mg - 24mg and send them out the door. The ones that have previously been taking methadone suffer the most because of the long half life of the methadone. The sub covers it up and they feel sickly for days on end.

    I have every single one of the methadone patients STOP the sub for a day or two, some 3 or 4 if they can, and allow wd's to begin, then have them begin taking 1-2mg of sub every hour until they're stable and feeling better. And that's what I strongly suggest you do my friend. I know it's scary, I've been there. But I honestly believe it's the right move for you.

    I can tell you if you continue as you are that eventually you'll begin feeling better, but it's anyone's guess just how long that may be? Sooner or later you'll turn a corner and be on your way. It's completely up to you what you decide to do. I hate to see anyone suffer on subs as it's gives them a bad name. Suboxone is a wonderful tool if used correctly.

    Hope this helps and you feel better real soon. I'll check back soon as I'm able.

    Randy
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  2. #32
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Gosh I'm sorry that you're having such a tough time. I'm glad that Randy stopped in to give you some advice. Maybe you should try to just stop the subs for a day or two or at least for as long as you can manage. At least when you get sick, you'll have the subs and it won't be any worse than you are right now and hopefully once you are ready to begin dosing again, they'll help you more. It does make sense that if you are able to abstain from the subs for a day or two, you'd rid yourself of some of that sub to get you closer to where you need to be. You could get rid of as much sub in a couple of days that would take you weeks if you hadn't skipped those day(s). I'm sure that the methadone is still causing you problems and you're just in a tough spot right now. The weekend is almost here so maybe you can try to not dose on Saturday and depending upon how you feel, if you're no worse maybe you can manage to get through Sunday too. If you get good and sick, then that would be a good thing! You could begin to take the subs again beginning at the 2mg and increase once an hour like Randy suggested. I don't know but it sure sounds like it would be worth a try.

    I also wanted to mention that you shouldn't worry about having a tough time once you do manage to get stable. Yes. You did begin by taking too high a dose of the sub but you only did that for a few days and then caught it. The folks who have the most trouble begin by taking a high dose and keep taking it for months and even years. The other thing that people sometimes do is to try and taper too quickly or they take inconsistent doses. For example, they might make a reduction too soon, feel terrible and then up their dose again trying to restabilize. This is why it's important to never reduce by more than 25%. If you are good and stable and make a 25% reduction, even if you feel a bit off for a day or two but you will know that it will only take another day or two to stabilize. You'll know it because this has worked for thousands of people. If you reduce more than that, there is no way of knowing how long it's going to take to get stable. The entire purpose of using subs is to minimize the symptoms. I never could understand why people would begin to use subs and then subject themselves to horrid symptoms their entire taper. Makes no sense. They should have just did cold turkey and got it over with. Subs are a really good tool but anyone who decides to use them should make the commitment at the get-go to follow a proper taper. Sorry. I got off track there. I know that you are more than willing to listen to the advice of others and fully intend on doing this the right way. I just wish that you weren't having this much trouble. At least you are moving further away from the life sentence of methadone. That's a huge plus!

    Anyway, please consider Randy's advice. The alternative is to hang tough and wait this out because you will stabilize eventually so long as you don't mess with your dose. Every day the methadone dissipates a little more and the more that leaves, the more effective the subs are going to be.

    I'll check on you later.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  3. #33
    Ukcat5fan is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    Gosh I'm sorry that you're having such a tough time. I'm glad that Randy stopped in to give you some advice. Maybe you should try to just stop the subs for a day or two or at least for as long as you can manage. At least when you get sick, you'll have the subs and it won't be any worse than you are right now and hopefully once you are ready to begin dosing again, they'll help you more. It does make sense that if you are able to abstain from the subs for a day or two, you'd rid yourself of some of that sub to get you closer to where you need to be. You could get rid of as much sub in a couple of days that would take you weeks if you hadn't skipped those day(s). I'm sure that the methadone is still causing you problems and you're just in a tough spot right now. The weekend is almost here so maybe you can try to not dose on Saturday and depending upon how you feel, if you're no worse maybe you can manage to get through Sunday too. If you get good and sick, then that would be a good thing! You could begin to take the subs again beginning at the 2mg and increase once an hour like Randy suggested. I don't know but it sure sounds like it would be worth a try.

    I also wanted to mention that you shouldn't worry about having a tough time once you do manage to get stable. Yes. You did begin by taking too high a dose of the sub but you only did that for a few days and then caught it. The folks who have the most trouble begin by taking a high dose and keep taking it for months and even years. The other thing that people sometimes do is to try and taper too quickly or they take inconsistent doses. For example, they might make a reduction too soon, feel terrible and then up their dose again trying to restabilize. This is why it's important to never reduce by more than 25%. If you are good and stable and make a 25% reduction, even if you feel a bit off for a day or two but you will know that it will only take another day or two to stabilize. You'll know it because this has worked for thousands of people. If you reduce more than that, there is no way of knowing how long it's going to take to get stable. The entire purpose of using subs is to minimize the symptoms. I never could understand why people would begin to use subs and then subject themselves to horrid symptoms their entire taper. Makes no sense. They should have just did cold turkey and got it over with. Subs are a really good tool but anyone who decides to use them should make the commitment at the get-go to follow a proper taper. Sorry. I got off track there. I know that you are more than willing to listen to the advice of others and fully intend on doing this the right way. I just wish that you weren't having this much trouble. At least you are moving further away from the life sentence of methadone. That's a huge plus!

    Anyway, please consider Randy's advice. The alternative is to hang tough and wait this out because you will stabilize eventually so long as you don't mess with your dose. Every day the methadone dissipates a little more and the more that leaves, the more effective the subs are going to be.

    I'll check on you later.

    Peace,

    Cat


    I'm seriously considering just stopping the subs all together. It's been 14 days since my last methadone dose and I'm still not feeling ok with the subs. I've read where some people that make it after day 15 or so start to feel better from the methadone withdrawal. I've looking to so many different ways to get around this and it just looks like I have to bite the bulllet at some people. All the subs are doing is knocking the edge off but by no means are making me feel better. I know it's only been 10 days on subs but surely that's enough time to stabilize on whatever dose. I'm just so confused. Stopping now, I don't think I'd have an issue with the subs but just the methadone. But then I think 15 years is a long damn time and I may be going through hell for a long time too. I may have no choice to either just quit or reinduce. The first time I did it I had some xanax that really helped but I don't now and don't know what to do. I just did 1 mg today thinking that lowering may help me feel better but it has not. Just the same.

    So lost at the moment. Lots of tears and hopelessness that I've gotten into something that I cannot beat. I cannot go back to methadone as I've already messed up getting my takehomes. So, that's not an option. It's only going forward in one way or another.

  4. #34
    Ukcat5fan is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    Gosh I'm sorry that you're having such a tough time. I'm glad that Randy stopped in to give you some advice. Maybe you should try to just stop the subs for a day or two or at least for as long as you can manage. At least when you get sick, you'll have the subs and it won't be any worse than you are right now and hopefully once you are ready to begin dosing again, they'll help you more. It does make sense that if you are able to abstain from the subs for a day or two, you'd rid yourself of some of that sub to get you closer to where you need to be. You could get rid of as much sub in a couple of days that would take you weeks if you hadn't skipped those day(s). I'm sure that the methadone is still causing you problems and you're just in a tough spot right now. The weekend is almost here so maybe you can try to not dose on Saturday and depending upon how you feel, if you're no worse maybe you can manage to get through Sunday too. If you get good and sick, then that would be a good thing! You could begin to take the subs again beginning at the 2mg and increase once an hour like Randy suggested. I don't know but it sure sounds like it would be worth a try.

    I also wanted to mention that you shouldn't worry about having a tough time once you do manage to get stable. Yes. You did begin by taking too high a dose of the sub but you only did that for a few days and then caught it. The folks who have the most trouble begin by taking a high dose and keep taking it for months and even years. The other thing that people sometimes do is to try and taper too quickly or they take inconsistent doses. For example, they might make a reduction too soon, feel terrible and then up their dose again trying to restabilize. This is why it's important to never reduce by more than 25%. If you are good and stable and make a 25% reduction, even if you feel a bit off for a day or two but you will know that it will only take another day or two to stabilize. You'll know it because this has worked for thousands of people. If you reduce more than that, there is no way of knowing how long it's going to take to get stable. The entire purpose of using subs is to minimize the symptoms. I never could understand why people would begin to use subs and then subject themselves to horrid symptoms their entire taper. Makes no sense. They should have just did cold turkey and got it over with. Subs are a really good tool but anyone who decides to use them should make the commitment at the get-go to follow a proper taper. Sorry. I got off track there. I know that you are more than willing to listen to the advice of others and fully intend on doing this the right way. I just wish that you weren't having this much trouble. At least you are moving further away from the life sentence of methadone. That's a huge plus!

    Anyway, please consider Randy's advice. The alternative is to hang tough and wait this out because you will stabilize eventually so long as you don't mess with your dose. Every day the methadone dissipates a little more and the more that leaves, the more effective the subs are going to be.

    I'll check on you later.

    Peace,

    Cat


    I think I've stared to feel better. Had a bad day yesterday but felt better today. I've tried to keep my dose as low as possible. Had 1st appointment with sub doctor and when I went to the doctor today, he prescribed me Zublov or Zoblov (whatever it's called) because of insurance purposes. I think he prescribed me too high of a dose. I'm not sure if it's the 5 or 8 mg pills, haven't picked up script. Doesn't matter anyway cause either way it's too high of a dose.

    However, he told me that you CANNOT break these pills up because they WONT work at all if you do. He explained the law about taking them while and then he said it's really important not to break these pills up because then they won't work. Does anyone know anything about that? The last thing I want to do is get my dose way up there when I've been suffering for over 3 weeks trying to keep it down. Is it really not possible to break them up so I don't have to take a whole one? Thanks in advance.

  5. #35
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukcat5fan View Post
    I think I've stared to feel better. Had a bad day yesterday but felt better today. I've tried to keep my dose as low as possible. Had 1st appointment with sub doctor and when I went to the doctor today, he prescribed me Zublov or Zoblov (whatever it's called) because of insurance purposes. I think he prescribed me too high of a dose. I'm not sure if it's the 5 or 8 mg pills, haven't picked up script. Doesn't matter anyway cause either way it's too high of a dose.

    However, he told me that you CANNOT break these pills up because they WONT work at all if you do. He explained the law about taking them while and then he said it's really important not to break these pills up because then they won't work. Does anyone know anything about that? The last thing I want to do is get my dose way up there when I've been suffering for over 3 weeks trying to keep it down. Is it really not possible to break them up so I don't have to take a whole one? Thanks in advance.
    The doctor is full of poo! Break them up all you want, they will work!

  6. #36
    Ukcat5fan is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    The doctor is full of poo! Break them up all you want, they will work!
    Oh, thank god!

  7. #37
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukcat5fan View Post
    I think I've stared to feel better. Had a bad day yesterday but felt better today. I've tried to keep my dose as low as possible. Had 1st appointment with sub doctor and when I went to the doctor today, he prescribed me Zublov or Zoblov (whatever it's called) because of insurance purposes. I think he prescribed me too high of a dose. I'm not sure if it's the 5 or 8 mg pills, haven't picked up script. Doesn't matter anyway cause either way it's too high of a dose.

    However, he told me that you CANNOT break these pills up because they WONT work at all if you do. He explained the law about taking them while and then he said it's really important not to break these pills up because then they won't work. Does anyone know anything about that? The last thing I want to do is get my dose way up there when I've been suffering for over 3 weeks trying to keep it down. Is it really not possible to break them up so I don't have to take a whole one? Thanks in advance.


    Ricky's right as he always is. You can break those pills up for any dose you'll need.

    There's been a long-standing debate about that subject. It was first reported when the Suboxone films were introduced that the active ingredient of buprenorphine was limited to one area of the film strips, or the pills. It was suggested to not break or cut those films because you may get a piece with no bupe in it. Same when for the generic buprenorphine pills. We now know that's just not true.

    During my nearly 9 months on Suboxone I used both the film strips and the generic bupe pills. and of course I broke them down to get the doses needed during my taper. I never once felt I wasn't getting any of the drug in me. Not ever.

    So the doctor gave you Zubsolv. That's fine as it's basically the same as Suboxone with just different dosing numbers. You probably received the 5.7mg pills which equal an 8mg Suboxone. It just makes the taper process of getting doses a little trickier, but if you have any kind of math knowledge you can figure it out as you lower your dose.

    As you lower you dose you can crush those pills into a fine powder using the back of a spoon or a pill crusher available at most any pharmacy. You separate the powder into equal piles and keep separating until your dose is obtained. Not as difficult as it may sound.

    The important thing is to take the same dose at the same time(s) each day. Never take it on an "as needed" basis. You need a level amount in your system at all times which will help you feel your best. As your dose gets lower you'll feel even better. Take your time, but don't become too complacent either. You'll know when the time to reduce your dose is there.

    Take care,
    Randy

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