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Tapering off 6 years on Subs and freaking out!
  1. #1
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Default Tapering off 6 years on Subs and freaking out!

    I've read a lot of the great support on this forum and decided to post. I've been on Subs for 6 years after a 5 year run on Oxys and Fentanyl. I've never had insurance until now so I've always gotten it from a "friend" that was prescribed way more than she ever needed so she basically shared her script with me. Well in January her doctor told her he was gonna have to wean her off because apparently she was getting it as pain treatment. Crazy. Thank God I immediately panicked and started tapering myself. I never took more than a little over 2 mg/ day. So by the time she called me in February to tell me her doc refused to give her another script and switched her to Vicodin, I had already tapered to I think .75 mg. That wasn't completely horrible. At this point, it's taken me a month and a half and I'm down to roughly .3 ish. I say this because it's getting unbearable at this point. I'm really agitated all the time, feel really >>>>>> most of the day. But at night, the RLS gets the best of me and I've been caving at around 4-5 am and taking a teeny, tiny chip just so I can sleep a little.
    Another problem is this: I met my brand new husband 5 years ago. I never told him about the subs. I still haven't told him. At this point, I feel like it would be devastating for him in terms of thinking he can't trust me. I'm a pretty honest person and we have a wonderful relationship. I could just never bring myself to tell him and have him know that I'm not as amazing as he thinks. He knows a lot about addiction and drugs, just not this. So I'm pretty alone in this. I have no family around and no one knows I'm on it. I'm not proud of any of this.

    So... Right now I have about 11 mg left of Subutex. I'm just having a terrible time stabilizing on .3 and Im so scared I'm gonna run out before I get low enough. And idk what I'm gonna do when I'm fully in withdrawals and hubby wants to know what the heck is going on!!

    I just really need someone to talk to instead of just spending a million hours reading horror stories!!

  2. #2
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Welcome!!

    Take a deep breath and don't freak out. You're going to be just fine. Don't pay too much attention to the horror stories. Much of this is what you make of it and the rest of it you'll figure out with the help, support and experience of the wonderful people on this Forum.

    How long have you been at your current dose of .3(ish)? Were you stable before your most recent reduction? and How much time did you take between reductions? It's important to be completely stable at your current dose before you attempt another reduction. If you do it too soon, your symptoms and problems will follow you the rest of the way. So, first let's try to figure out what dose you should be on to be completely stable. We can try to figure that out if you just answer the three questions I asked.

    I understand that you don't want to talk to your husband about this. It's scary! Maybe sometime down the road I can talk you into trying to tell someone though. You'll honestly feel much better by sharing this burden. For now, though take another deep breath. You 'll get through this will flying colors. Post soon and let's get a plan together so that you can feel better about this.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  3. #3
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Hi Cat, thanks for replying! It feels nice to have even one person to talk to about this!!

    So my last definitely stable dose was .5. I then tapered to .4 (or my closest interpretation of it considering how difficult the 8mg tabs are to cut). I think I was at that for 4 days but now that I think about it I probably wasn't totally stable. I think I started panicking about how much I have left and just cut down further to the .3. It's the 3rd day and it's not going well at all. I can manage it during the day but I don't feel very happy at all. Lol. At night though the RLS starts and I lose it. Im usually very still during the night and my husband keeps waking up because I'm stirring constantly. So that's when I get even more anxious and will go take a tiny bit more so that I can sleep for a few hours.
    Idk what to do. I don't have the luxury of drawing out the taper for much longer so I don't think I can go all the way back to .4!
    I went and bought DLPA, a complex with Suntheanine,Ashwaganda, and Magnesium, and a Sleep Complex with Valarian Root and Passionflower. Yesterday I felt like I could actually make it through the night and did actually sleep for 2 hours before the RLS. So then I caved again.

  4. #4
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    That was quick! OK. Clearly you aren't stable on the dose you are at. You have already learned how strong subs are and even a crumb can make a difference. This is exactly why it's so important to not reduce willy nilly. If you aren't stable, you're going back for that extra crumb and defeating the taper. It's not unusual, especially at these lower doses that you'll feel some symptoms every time you reduce but they should be mild and only last for a few days. Once you have adjusted to the new lower dose, only then is it time to reduce again and it shouldn't be by more than 25%.

    I think I would suggest that you go back up to .4 for a few days and get yourself stable. Hopefully after being at that dose for 4 days or so you can do your 25% reduction for a new daily dose of .3mg. After another 4 days or so, you hopefully will be ready to reduce again to .25 mg. If my math is correct and you have 11 mg of sub, you should be able to complete this taper correctly with what you have. Depending upon how you are feeling, once you are stable at .25 you can do an additional reduction to .125, get stable and then skip a day. Dose at .125, skip two days. Dose .125 and you're done.

    One tip for cutting your doses. I'm sure it is challenging to try and cut the pills into these small doses and be as accurate as possible. Instead, you can take the small pieces and crush them and divide them into equal piles. So if you have a 1mg piece for instance and crush it you can easily divide it into 3 equal piles for a dose of .33 each. Use a folded business card to pour the sub under your tongue. It'll be somewhat easier to get the pill into small doses and have each dose be more accurate.

    You can do this! I hope that you can get yourself stable at .4. Even if you don't feel perfect at that dose, give it a few days to see if your body will adjust. I think it will. If you carefully follow the taper plan that I've described here that others have followed successfully over and over, you are apt to be done more quickly than if you continue to struggle the way you have. So, be patient and be sure to get stable before you reduce. Keep us posted. Let's get it done!!

    Peace,

    Cat

  5. #5
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    As much as I don't want to admit it, I know you're right. I've been trying to rationalize it but it doesn't work once I've taken the extra bit. So I'm still taking almost .4 anyway, just beating myself up along the way. And I should still have enough as long as I don't keep slipping up.
    So you think I should stay at .4 for a few days and re-stabilize before attempting to drop again?

    Thank you so much for taking the time to help me!

  6. #6
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Absolutely. The single most important thing to do right now and from now on, in fact is to get stable. You'll feel better and it's just the most efficient way to get done with this once and for all.

    Peace,

    Cat

  7. #7
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Yes Cat is right..
    Get stable before you drop ..
    The most important part of get off sub if ot all the wds follow you till the end..
    I did skip days in the end ..
    When I got to 0.125mg
    I dosed
    Skipped a day
    Dosed
    Skipped 2 days
    Dosed
    Skipped 3 days
    Then was done..
    That was 13 months ago ..
    I worked through it all ..
    If I can do it ..
    You can do it too!
    Definitely worth the fight!
    Take care
    Bette
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  8. #8
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Thanks for the reply Bette. I'm going back to .4 while I still have enough left and stabilize for a few more days before I try again. I feel better knowing I can get some sleep! I've been so stressed the past several days, already having mild w/d symptoms when I'm still a little ways out from jumping!

    Question: how did you feel on the skip days? I'm trying to decide whether I jump at .125 or try to taper down to something tiny beyond that. I'm such a baby when it comes to this and I won't have any time off of work if I feel too bad. Not to mention trying to keep it from the hubby!

    Congrats on 13 months clean!! I can't wait till I can have even a day!!
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  9. #9
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Just checking in with you. Let us know how you're feeling back at .4. Even if you have some mild symptoms, try to be patient and give it a few days to see if you level out. I honestly think you will. It helps mentally just to have a plan in place and to stick to it instead of that internal battle to take more or not??? Remove that option/question and just trust the process.

    Keep posting. This is quite the wonderful community. I'm glad that Bette chimed in. She's a valued member with lots of knowledge and experience and is certainly considered one of the sub experts here. I'm hoping that Randy will pop in sometime soon. He's another member with lots of knowledge and has an incredible story of his own. When you have the time, find both Bette's and Randy's threads and read them start to finish. If you want motivation and to know what to expect, both of those threads are worth the read. Let me look for the title of both of those threads for you. It's funny that because we have all been around here for so long, I just know when I see their threads pop up and don't pay much attention to the titles or their user names anymore. They are Bette and Randy to us now.

    Hope you have a good day.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  10. #10
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Sorry I can't figure out how to copy the link to the threads I'd like you to read but you can search for them from the Home Page. Look for the "Advanced Search" button there and then search for:

    Type in "Finally ready please support me too! " Use the drop down menu and choose "Titles Only" This is Iluv2smile (Bette)

    "No trouble tapering-just can't make the jump!" Randy35 (Randy)

    Reading these threads start to finish will give you a peek into what you can expect with your taper and you will understand why it is that you can trust Randy and Bette with whatever advice they give to you.

    Peace,

    Cat

  11. #11
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi there..
    I felt OK on the skip days..
    By OK I mean it was totally doable..
    You could go down lower it is up to you because
    As Randy says do this right you never have to do it again!
    So true..

    Even now as both Randy and Cat will attest too..
    my days are not completely pain free now ..
    But to be able to make decisions based on wants instead of have too take
    Something to exist..
    Is worth all the work!

    Some people just jump at 0.25 or less and get it over with..
    Believe me once you start accumulating clean days
    That is motivation enough..

    Just knowing this is possible
    By us sharing
    That it is!
    Really can help..
    I have a stressful job and actually did better at work..
    Because left alone in wds I can become ill..
    My mind takes over..
    So stay busy!
    Take it one day at a time..
    Carry on!
    You will love the results!
    Bette

  12. #12
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    Just checking in with you. Let us know how you're feeling back at .4. Even if you have some mild symptoms, try to be patient and give it a few days to see if you level out. I honestly think you will. It helps mentally just to have a plan in place and to stick to it instead of that internal battle to take more or not??? Remove that option/question and just trust the process.

    Keep posting. This is quite the wonderful community. I'm glad that Bette chimed in. She's a valued member with lots of knowledge and experience and is certainly considered one of the sub experts here. I'm hoping that Randy will pop in sometime soon. He's another member with lots of knowledge and has an incredible story of his own. When you have the time, find both Bette's and Randy's threads and read them start to finish. If you want motivation and to know what to expect, both of those threads are worth the read. Let me look for the title of both of those threads for you. It's funny that because we have all been around here for so long, I just know when I see their threads pop up and don't pay much attention to the titles or their user names anymore. They are Bette and Randy to us now.

    Hope you have a good day.

    Peace,

    Cat

    Hi Cat. So I went ahead yesterday evening and took more to make my dose .4 for the day. Instead of agonizing all night and doing it. So I actually got some sleep. My legs were still a little restless but not near as bad. It's crazy the difference in taking it at 3-5 am and at 11 at night. Oh well. There is really no going back so whatever happens I'm just gonna have to deal with it. By going back to .4 for a few days I'm hoping I can recharge my mental strength a little. I'm such a strong person in every aspect of life... But this. And it's torturous. How can such a small dose of anything have such a massive effect?! But I WILL do it this time.

    As for the threads you mentioned, I did read Randy's story a couple nights ago. It was an incredible read and he is such a strong person. It inspired me. I haven't read Bette's yet but I'm going to. It's amazing the support and love on this site. Sometimes it's all the extra someone needs to push forward and I'm hoping I can talk my way through it here.


    To Bette, thank you again for the info. I'm definitely gonna try the skip days when I get there and if it's too bad I'll just drop again to some barely visible dose!!
    I know what you mean about work making it easier. Right now I'm in the middle of a couple weeks off before I help open a new place. So right now im just stuck with my thoughts. And it sucks. Once I'm back at work I'll be very busy all the time and I know it will help.
    All I can do is move forward!!
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  13. #13
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    If I were you I would stay busy doing something..
    Now is the time to re create yourself..
    During my taper I changed everything..
    Even my furniture around..
    It gave me something to do ..
    Plus I did not want any memories of places even in my home
    That reminded me of being under the influence of anything..
    It was actually fun..
    Plus idk if you work out but now is a great time to I cooperate some form of that..
    Because that will help your body recreate its own endorphins..
    Laughing
    Chocolate
    Sex
    Exercise
    Sense of accomplishment..
    Help the brain to recreate its own feel good juices..
    Take care
    Bette

  14. #14
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    I've been trying to stay busy. Been doing things around the house that I never had time for working all the time. I'm just really bored. I've worked since I was 16 (I'm 41 now) and I thought this time off would be a relief but it's only managing to drive me a little crazier. I can only do so much cleaning, organizing before its all done too!
    10 more days and I'll be back at work though and I won't have so much time to dwell on everything. By then I should be at .25 for sure and sooo close to being done with this YEARS LONG nightmare!!
    I've been thinking a lot about how many times I could have done this in the past. Fear is powerful. Now I'm trying to tell myself that I'm way stronger than this wicked drug and how much better life is going to feel without it. I'm excited for the future that's so close now instead of just always off in the distance.

  15. #15
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    You sound so much better tonight and I'm glad!! This won't take you long at all so be patient and just do it right and you'll be done in no time. What a great attitude you have now. You are absolutely right about allowing fear to dictate our actions. It certainly is one of the biggest reasons we delay jumping in and getting this done. It becomes such a vicious cycle. Once we turn this fear into something else...like excitement for the all the possibilities that will open up to us, we begin to believe that we are strong enough to get past the fear and do whatever it takes to reclaim our lives.

    Good for you! I'm excited for you and very proud of you for turning this corner.

    Peace,

    Cat

  16. #16
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Yea I do definitely feel better than yesterday. Sleeping through most of the night felt great. I feel kinda bad for going backwards but I'm telling myself it is only gonna make it easier in the big picture. I think I've worked out a way to break up the remainder of my doses by crushing it the way you said. And I'm pretty sure I can get it much more accurate that way. Close to the end though I will be left with a tiny Baggie of powder that was leftover from previous cutting adventures. I THINK it's about 3 mg or a little more. Maybe when I'm crushing the rest I will get out and compare the size of the pile. Lol. So much work involved.

    I can't wait for this to be over!

  17. #17
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Good. Glad you're doing better. Getting it out and measuring against other piles that you know the size of is exactly what you should do. Not perfect, but it will be real close.

    Don't think of this as going backward because you didn't. You were probably close to .4 anyway except that you weren't taking it all at once. In the long run you are far better off because what you were feeling without being stable would follow you the rest of the way making it tougher to continue to reduce and get to the end. This if much better. Do it right and you will see continual progress and feel better. Win-Win.

    Peace,

    Cst

  18. #18
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Plus for me it was such a comfort knowing that getting off of sub was possible..
    I usually want things now!
    So patience didn't come easy and still doesn't..
    But this is not a race..
    You never have to do this again!
    That was awesome when Randy said that to me..
    Do this right..
    You don't ever have to use again..
    You are closer than ever..
    Just stay calm
    Carry on..
    You will be
    Rockin
    It clean
    In 2016!
    Soon..
    Bette

  19. #19
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Hello lovely ladies. I didn't feel like posting yesterday. I had a massive migraine all day.
    Today is day 4 at .4 mg. I feel mostly normal all day really. Anxiety is up but I think it's just me over thinking it. Bette, I'm pretty sure I've seen you post around the board about blaming every little thing on the taper. I know that's what I'm doing. So I try to ignore the anxiety. But still at night I'm having RLS. I'm thinking its a preview of what will come later. This is what terrifies me the most. It's always been the w/d symptom that pushes me over the edge. So last night (well more like 530 am) I got out a heating pad and laid it over my upper thighs. At first I felt like it was doing nothing. The next thing I knew I had been asleep for 3 hours! So it gave me a little hope. I think I'm gonna buy some Magnesium supplements today too. Does anyone know if Glycinate is the best form to use for this?

    Anyway... Moving forward. Tomorrow I will drop to .33 mg. I think the RLS is just gonna be my co-pilot throughout this and since I'm not having any other symptoms I need to go for it.

    By the way, I took a look at the powder I had saved up...... It's more like 1.5 mg if I'm lucky and NOT 3 mg. so that's a little depressing. No more room for setbacks!! I have to just be all in now.

  20. #20
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Good to see you post. The RLS was the worst symptom or me too! I have often told people to get two heating pads, set them on low and wrap them around your legs. It's not perfect, but it does help! The supplement that most people swear by is Hylands Restless Leg. Be sure to drink as much water as you possibly can. These meds can dehydrate you and dehydration will absolutely kick up the RLS more than a notch or two!!

    Stinks that you are still having symptoms. You really shouldn't be, or at least none that are bothersome. Isn't today only like Day 3 at .4 mg? Can you possible stay at that dose for one more day? I thought when I figured it out the other night, that you had enough to stay at each dose 4 days. If you do have enough, stay put for at least another day or you'll be back to having a rough time and it will follow you the rest of the way. You're so close and I know the amount of subs you have is limited. I just think the smart thing to do is to take that extra day before you reduce. Better now than to find out you're too uncomfortable and having to take a few more days later on. Ya know? There's not a lot of room for experimenting. Better to do it right the first time even if it means that you have to jump without doing the skip days. Once you get to .125 and stay there for 4 or 5 days, if you're out of subs you can jump then instead of doing skip days. That's a safer option I think. If you reduce too soon, the symptoms you have will only get worse. Not trying to scare you. Just asking you to be patient. You'll be much better off in the long run.

    Peace,

    Cat

  21. #21
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    I know, I couldn't believe it when I woke up and the heating pad had helped! I have The Restful Legs Pills that I've bought for my husband. He has degenerative disc disease and has had back surgery. RLS is a side effect of this and many nights I've laid awake while his legs kick. So I have that medication by the bed and feed it to him in the midst of many nights. It helps him. I've tried it 4 nights with absolutely no results.
    I'm kind of discouraged that I'm having these symptoms when it's still early in the final taper stages too. I thought I'd be ok right now. I am thankful though that so far it's just the RLS and not many other things. I could stay at .4 another day and probably be ok taper-wise... But the RLS has stayed constant since it started. Even when I committed to going back to .4...... It was still there!!! I think it's gonna be my cross to bear in this. I shudder thinking of it but...
    We'll see how tomorrow goes. I've been split dosing anyway. Maybe it will be the same?

  22. #22
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Good. Try to give it another day. It's just so important to stabilize and if the RLS is an issue, you're not stable. You will be if you can be patient. That means waiting until its gone. Then it's time to reduce again and the RLS may kick up for a couple of days. until you stabilize again. This is the whole concept of staying at the same dose for at LEAST 4 days. Drop too quickly and things will just get worse and you'll be back to square one. 3 days is just too soon to try and reduce again. Check in tomorrow morning and let me know how the night goes. Fingers crossed that your legs will be still tonight You are dosing twice a day? It's OK if you think that helps. What times of day are you dosing? They should be 8-10 hrs apart. Usually people say that what works best for them is in the morning 7-8ish and then again mid afternoon. I don't know why, but the Robert, the man who posted this taper originally cautioned against dosing at bedtime. I can't say if that really makes a difference or not, but it's worth a try to dose in the afternoon instead if you are dosing at bedtime.

    I'll check for an update from you later.

    Peace,

    Cat

  23. #23
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Hey Cat. So when we first talked about going back to a solid .4 it was the 1st. So I did that for the 1st through the 4th. That would make today day 1 on .33. I realize it may be hard. I just know that I want to taper down as low as I'm able to get the doses for as long as possible before I'm done. If I continue staying at such a high dosage now I'm definitely eliminating the possibility of extending it longer. I'm just so afraid of babying myself too much and being forced to jump at a higher dose. I have no idea if this plan is going to work at all. I can only hope it does.

    So... Today is day 1 on.33. It's been ok so far. I'm a little more runs down feeling but that's it for now. We'll see how tonight goes!!!

    As far as the split dosing, I've been taking half around 10 am and the other half around 8pm. I am a night person so my schedule is later that a lot of people. Im a Bar Manager so I have to live with this schedule.

    I want you to know how much I appreciate your help in this process. I wish I could taper much slower and surely have an easier time with it. I just don't have the resources to support that. I will post tomorrow and hopefully it will be a good report of the night!

    Hope you are having a wonderful Saturday evening!

  24. #24
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Thanks for checking in. I was wondering how you were doing. I get your dilemma. You just have to do the best you can with what you have. You are of course right. The lower you can get before you jump, the better. Anything .25 or lower. Once you get close so long as you're below that .25 you can begin skip days.

    You're a brave lady. Good luck and keep in touch.

    Peace,

    Cat

  25. #25
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    So day 2 at .33......

    Last night I went to bed feeling positive and hopeful. And then I could never fall asleep at all... IDK if it was mostly anxiety about the RLS or what but I was awake until about 6am. I'm not sure if I passed out from exhaustion or what but I slept for a few hours at that point. It's confusing to me how I can be up all night feeling kicky and then just pass out at some point and sleep for a while... But I'll take what I can get.

    I've been really tired and edgy today. I feel like I couldn't force a smile if my life depended on it. But other than that and feeling a tiny bit tingly I suppose I'm doing ok!

    I'm proud of myself for not caving and taking more in the middle of the night like last time I was on this dose. Just have to keep moving forward!

    Hoping for sleep tonight.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-06-2016 at 09:35 PM.

  26. #26
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    It's OK. This is exactly the reason you need to stay at your dose for at least those full 4 days. You'll level out and then guess what???? Yeppers. Time to do it all over again. Good news though is that it won't be long now. Proud of you for sticking it out last night. Yes. Take whatever sleep you get when you can get it!

    Peace,

    Cat

  27. #27
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    I agree. I'm going to stay at .33 for 5 days instead of 4 and hopefully I will level out there. In any case I'm getting closer!

    I know I can, and will do this. I have no choice. Loooong ago I severed all ties with anyone that could give me pain pills so no matter what happens now I WILL be clean soon.

  28. #28
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Atta Girl! Love that attitude. Hope you have a peaceful, restful night. Be sure to keep checking in.

    Peace,

    Cat

  29. #29
    Gonnawin is offline Member
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    Another lovely night with my best friend, RLS! Night time is really torturous. But it could definitely be worse. I really believe the DLPA, Magnesium and Valerian Root help so who knows how much worse it would be without. I'm not gonna find out.

    I think my mental state is slightly better today, but this whole process just sucks! I wish I could speed it up and be done so badly but I'm just stuck here.

    I checked in on the friend who was giving me my subs and she's still not doing well. She did CT at about 6-8 mg. she says she's just beginning to feel like it might be okay sometime soon. That was almost a month ago!! I feel bad for her. I know her mind has cleared though because she just kept talking about what a terrible drug it is. Lol. Terrible indeed, but it has managed to save some of us in the process.

  30. #30
    ghostrc is offline Member
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    hey gonnawin, hope you get a good sleep, im glad your tapering lower then i did and looking back i don't think i was ever stable below .5 i just got to impatient and thats what cause my drawn out hell which follwed me the rest of the way, im sure yours will be better. im rooting for ya, and like they said stay at a dose 5 or 7 days till stable i remember when i was dropping the first two days im like nope cant do this then third day it was ok.

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