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Trying Suboxone for the first time
  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    The brand name for Naltrexone is Vivitrol. It was accepted by the FDA for alcoholism but as it turns out, it blocks the effects of opiates. Most insurances won't cover it unless your diagnosis is alcoholism and it's can be prescribed in tablet form to be taken every day or you can report to a clinic once a month for an injection that remains active for 30 days. My opinion, especially early on is if you want to go this route, get the injection. All it takes is a weak moment one day to decide not to take that pill and it's open season for a relapse. These clinics generally know the drill that they need to treat alcoholism to get insurance companies to cover it but if you do decide to do this, I'd go in and just tell them you have alcohol issues. When you have time, Google Naltrexone or Vivitrol so that you can learn more about it. It's a bit of help for people who need to get some clean time under their belts.

    How you feeling?

    Peace,

    Cat
    No, no, no this is not the same!!! I said "low dose naltrexone" which is also very different from"naltrexone". This is very important to understand what I'm suggesting. Vivitrol is overpriced and not LDN.

    P.S. The brand name for naltrexone is not Vivitrol. Naltrexone is off-patent and has been for years. You do not want extended release naltrexone "Vivitrol" as it defeats the purpose.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  2. #32
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    You need to google "LOW DOSE NALTREXONE" not Vivitrol or naltrexone. Very different animals. LDN only blocks your receptors for a few hours in the middle of the night. You brain feels starved so it upregulates in the morning flooding your brain with endorphins relieving PAWS hopefully. It is true that you should not take opiates while on LDN, but that's the goal isn't it. It has a short half life of only 4-6 hours so some do take low dose opiates during the day but I wouldn't recommend it. Plus, with all those endorphins you shouldn't need opiates anymore anyway.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2018 at 03:57 PM.

  3. #33
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Cat and 1232, Thank you for clearing everything up. Should I not drink on LDN?

    I feel pretty good today. I did take 5mg of hydro late morning and 2.5mg of oxy before the interview. Which is much better than I have been doing for the last couple months (30-60mg+)

    Thank you for checking in
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2018 at 05:30 PM.

  4. #34
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    Wow, that's great news.

    You could test the waters with alcohol, or just not take the LDN on nights you plan to drink. I would spend some time googling it in general as there is so much information about it now than in the past. It's starting to become more well known and accepted by even the most stubborn of pill pushing docs.

    Lowdosenaltrexone.org is a great place to start. There is more info on relieving pain and MS symptoms than PAWS, but really it's the same mechanism. I found it to be an excellent antidepressant for my opiate liking brain.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2018 at 05:42 PM.

  5. #35
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Feeling decent again today off of only 5mg of hydro. But my mind is >>>>ing with me. I took the day off of work today to go to a couple treatment centers to see what my options are. If I need to check into a detox I can do so.

    Has anyone had any experience with kratom?

  6. #36
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Also, what dosage of clonadine would be sufficient while I go through my detox?

  7. #37
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    I can't seem to maintain off of anything less than 15mg. I definitely will need to go to a detox center when I'm ready. I just cannot control the urge. I haven't made it past 10am without taking something. I will say that I am not snorting anything, like I was the last couple months leading up.
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  8. #38
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    I can't seem to maintain off of anything less than 15mg. I definitely will need to go to a detox center when I'm ready. I just cannot control the urge. I haven't made it past 10am without taking something. I will say that I am not snorting anything, like I was the last couple months leading up.
    I admire your willingness to go to detox if you have to. I think that you should find a meeting and go to one. At 15mg/day, I would be surprised if it's the detox itself that is the problem but it's rather with your behavior. Another thing you can do is to search on the internet for intensive outpatient therapy which will do the same thing as the therapy in treatment. To do it right, you'll probably need some time off from work for the first week because it's going there for several hours during the day but you should make some calls to find out. Having said that though if you think you need inpatient and you can go--GO! One thing, however is that inpatient may want to give you small doses of methadone and my opinion is that that would be over-kill and I know for a fact that even though they taper you off of it, you will still feel symptoms from that when you're done. I'd encourage you to take advantage of the inpatient if that's what you need to do but resist anything they want to give to you along these lines but that's me.

    You mentioned kratom. NO, NO. and a big fat NO!!! It is addictive (very) and most often needs to be tapered. It has the same qualities as opiates but the strength isn't regulated so you'll never know from one batch to the next what you're getting. I know it sounds like the answer but trust me, it's not. We all drive ourselves crazy trying to find something that will help us get clean without having to suffer the worst of detoxing but let me tell you, if there was something, I would have found it,. I could be a professional at researching these things and if it's not one thing that's bad about it, it's another.

    Gosh I'm sorry that you are having trouble here and I know it's not that you don't want to do this. I know you do. Please consider meetings and some therapy because I think for you that's the best place to start as opposed to going after you've gotten clean.

    How you doing? Need another pep talk? I got one you know.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  9. #39
    Droppinthepoppy is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    I'm trying to gauge my tolerance to see what amount of hydro works to function. How long do you think the Sub is going to last in my system? Do you think it's out by now? I felt decent today after just 5 mg of hydro, but not sure if the Sub is lingering to help with that
    Just my opinion, but 5 days of clonidine was a lifesaver when I was kicking smaller (50 mg of oxycodone for instance) opiate habits. I begged them at rehab NOT to put me on suboxone and I’m glad I did, because later getting addicted to suboxone I realize now how powerful they are and what a NASTY withdrawal they give you. Clonidine is a blood pressure medication that reduces the anxiety, and for me several other symptoms, incredibly. It WILL make you a bit tired at first. I took 0.1 mg 3 times per day. My psychiatrist prescribed it for me when I told him what I was doing. I feel it is better than getting started on suboxone or continuing to mess with opiates as I am an addict and cannot control my opiate intake when I’m taking full agonist opiates. If I could, there would be no problem! Good luck Slim, the other side is worth it!
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  10. #40
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you guys!! I am struggling to taper, although I am doing better and not completely abusing them. I am checking myself into detox on Friday. Hoping to be out by Wednesday. I am looking forward to this so much. Not the actual the detoxing, but just being able to live a normal life again.

    I have enough oxy to get me through. I have access to morphine IR, would these be something I could substitute? Or would it make it worse?


    Again, thank you all for the positive reinforcement and encouraging words.
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  11. #41
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Thank you guys!! I am struggling to taper, although I am doing better and not completely abusing them. I am checking myself into detox on Friday. Hoping to be out by Wednesday. I am looking forward to this so much. Not the actual the detoxing, but just being able to live a normal life again.

    I have enough oxy to get me through. I have access to morphine IR, would these be something I could substitute? Or would it make it worse?


    Again, thank you all for the positive reinforcement and encouraging words.
    Oh I'm glad that you've decided to get yourself into detox. You really shouldn't have an awful time physically but the mental part of it is exactly the same for all us regardless of how much we're taking. Yes you can take the IR morphine to keep yourself out of withdrawal but I'd caution you to be very careful with it. You certainly don't want to up your dose of any opiate just before you're ready to detox. Take just enough to be able to get through the next few days. I always found that morphine felt much different than percs. You'll know if you react the same way. Be aware of how you feel and avoid getting high, take only enough to not be sick. mg for mg isn't the same and I can't help you with that. Google the opiate conversion table and you should be able to find an approximate equivalent of the morphine for 15mg of perc and don't exceed that. Be careful. I hate saying it's OK to do this. It doesn't feel right but I understand that you just need to get through this week.

    Be sure to let us know how you do and good luck!!

    Peace,

    Cat

  12. #42
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you again for your support!

    Well, the detox centers wanted anywhere from $600-1000/day, so that ship has sailed. I started my detox by myself as of yesterday. I am now on Day 2 and actually not feeling that bad. I know I've barely scratched the surface for the withdrawal symptoms, but I don't believe it will be as bad as I had anticipated, based on previous usage.

    I just want to thank all of you for your support. I know I can get through this. Please keep in touch.
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  13. #43
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Thank you again for your support!

    Well, the detox centers wanted anywhere from $600-1000/day, so that ship has sailed. I started my detox by myself as of yesterday. I am now on Day 2 and actually not feeling that bad. I know I've barely scratched the surface for the withdrawal symptoms, but I don't believe it will be as bad as I had anticipated, based on previous usage.

    I just want to thank all of you for your support. I know I can get through this. Please keep in touch.
    Hi Slim,

    I knew you could get this done without detox if you wanted to and here you are!! On day two? Pfft!! It shouldn't get much, if any, worse now. Always my symptoms kicked in around 18 hrs from my last dose and peaked within the next 8 to 10 hours. From there it remained steady for another 2 or 3 days (around 5 days total). Here's the thing. It's exhausting!!! The symptoms really aren't any worse but our stamina is tested. Some report that they begin to get relief around Day 3 but I never did. So, don't give up if there's no improvement because I never got a bit until it was abruptly over. And I mean ABRUPTLY! On the morning of Day 5, the aches and RLS were gone. Tummy issues hung around longer but Immodium takes care of that. Sleep was the last to return.

    Just a fair warning to not look for gradual improvement because it may not happen and instead will test your stamina. Just know that one way or the other, Day 5 has always been the magic number for me. If I've said it once, I've said it a gazillion times--the anticipation of cold turkey is far worse than the event itself. How true! YAY for you. Proud of you.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  14. #44
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you so much. I'm halfway there. I really don't think I could have even tried to do it without the input of all of you. My last dose was 5mg of oxy at 8pm on Thursday. I'm hoping to have this over with by Wednesday morning. I cannot express how much I appreciate your enthusiasm. You guys are great. I'm just worried about what to do afterwards when the back pain gets bad
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  15. #45
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Thank you so much. I'm halfway there. I really don't think I could have even tried to do it without the input of all of you. My last dose was 5mg of oxy at 8pm on Thursday. I'm hoping to have this over with by Wednesday morning. I cannot express how much I appreciate your enthusiasm. You guys are great. I'm just worried about what to do afterwards when the back pain gets bad
    Oh Yes. The What If's. Gotta love those what if's. You will deal with that when the time comes. Not at first, but after just a few weeks a couple of Aleve will give you relief. I promise it will if you give it a chance. I know. I didn't believe that either. You know why? Because I didn't want to. In the back of my mind I think I was justifying why it would be OK to relapse. Now that's hard to admit but it's true. Here's what I had to do. I'd take an over the counter pain reliever and I'd wait a half hour. Then I'd sit myself down and get quiet and really, I mean REALLY think about how much pain I was in. If I was completely honest with myself, those over the counter things helped. I swear by Aleve for back pain and Excedrin for headaches.

    Our brains manufacture their own chemicals similar to opiates to fight pain. When we use for a prolonged period of time our brains stop making that magic because it doesn't have to. We're feeding it artificially and now needs a little time to reboot before it starts to fire again. Be patient and you'll see.

    Peace,

    Cat

  16. #46
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    I believe I have made it. Today is Day 5. Honestly, most symptoms were gone by Day 4. Now is the real struggle to stay sober. Thank you so much for all your help and support
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  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    I believe I have made it. Today is Day 5. Honestly, most symptoms were gone by Day 4. Now is the real struggle to stay sober. Thank you so much for all your help and support
    Congratulations!!

    Yes. The real struggle now begins. Do you have plans or at least given thought to how you are going to manage recovery? The days are gone, my friend that we can sit back on our haunches and hope that everything will be OK. Recovery takes vigilance and work. Actually, I hate that we call recovery work because that just makes it seem worse than it needs to be. This is an awakening. Step forward and into recovery with excitement and enthusiasm. There's support and help out there and among the best is free!! Meetings. I know. We all hate the thought of that. Control freaks that we are, we so want to believe that it's a matter of will power and that no matter if we get help or not, the decision will always be ours. OK. That's true enough but instead of encountering that first moment when we have to decide to tough it out or relapse, the benefit of reaching out to someone will pull you across that mud puddle. Then comes the real beauty. You will help the next addict who needs you. Let me tell you, this is the best medicine of all. Each time we help another addict, we are helping ourselves. Sounds cliche but it's the truth. Know how doing something nice for someone just because is one of the best feelings in the world? Well it's like that but x100 because you are helping to save their life. It boosts your self esteem and will remind you that you are not in this alone.

    Look up and print out a list of meetings in your area. No excuses like I can't find one that fits into my schedule. This is too important and has to become a priority. There are always meetings at different times and certainly you'll be able to find one that you can go to. Don't want to go where you might know someone? At least at first travel out of your Town. If the first one you go to doesn't feel right, find another and keep doing that until you find one where you do feel comfortable. Remember too, that everyone there is there for the same reason as you. There's no shame in being a recovering addict. It's a shame we're human, isn't it? lol

    Let us know what you're going to do now. Why would anyone want to white knuckle it when help is a meeting away and it's free. I think you'll be surprised by what you will find there. Arrive a few minutes early and offer to set up coffee. It'll give you the opportunity to talk with someone so that it won't feel so weird. Other than showing up, you won't have to do a thing unless you want to. Listen or speak at group. It's entirely up to you. NA/AA meetings are essentially the same so it won't matter which you choose and in fact, lots of folks feel more comfortable at an AA meeting. Funny isn't it that being an alcoholic seems somewhat more socially acceptable than being a drug addict. This is changing, thankfully. Just get yourself to a meeting, You can do this.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  18. #48
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank all of you for previous help. It's been a very rough year for me and my family

    So I made it about 3 weeks before I relapsed. Started with usage only 1 day a week of 15mg oxy. That lasted about a month and then it was daily use of 15-90mg of oxy again. Needless to say I've gone through the detox process again, for the second time this year. I'm currently on day 5 and feel good just very weak and tired. I need to get some things done to help my parents, if I took ~3-5mg of oxy just to get energy, would it send me back into full withdrawals?
    Last edited by Anonymous; 12-31-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  19. #49
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Thank all of you for previous help. It's been a very rough year for me and my family

    So I made it about 3 weeks before I relapsed. Started with usage only 1 day a week of 15mg oxy. That lasted about a month and then it was daily use of 15-90mg of oxy again. Needless to say I've gone through the detox process again, for the second time this year. I'm currently on day 5 and feel good just very weak and tired. I need to get some things done to help my parents, if I took ~3-5mg of oxy just to get energy, would it send me back into full withdrawals?

    Slim, that is probably the most worrisome question you could ask! Look what happened before when you started to take 15mg once a week? You are playing with fire if you take any opiates at this point or ever again for that matter! You are an addict, you will never be able to take "just one" here and there and be able to control that use, you are way beyond that point now!

    For a boost in energy you can try the following amino acid/vitamin combo? Here's a direct quote from the Thomas recipe for opiate withdrawal - "On an empty stomach, take L-Tyrosine. Try 2000 mgs, and scale up or down, depending on how you feel. You can take up to 4,000 mgs. Take the L-Tyrosine with B6 to help absorption. Wait about one hour before eating any food. The L-Tyrosine will give you a surge of physical and mental energy that will help counteract the malaise. You may continue to take it each morning for as long as it helps. If you find it gives you the "coffee jitters," consider lowering the dosage or discontinuing it altogether. Occasionally, L-Tyrosine can cause the runs. Unlike the runs from opiate WD, however, this effect of L-Tyrosine is mild and normally does not return after the first hour. Lowering the dosage may help."

    Do not take those oxys, it's not worth it! Your energy levels will return but only after you're off the opiates for a good while, be patient!

    You may want to strongly consider attending some NA or even AA meetings and possibly drug addiction counseling as well?

    You are on a very slippery slope even thinking about taking those oxys, DON'T DO IT!!!

    "ONE PILL IS TOO MANY AND A THOUSAND PILLS WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH"

    I hope and pray that you make the right decision? I wish you well... God bless us all!

    PS
    I would highly recommend that you read through your entire thread again from the very 1st post, alot of great information and advice from some very caring and knowledgeable people! Hopefully reading through all of that will help you make the correct decision?
    Last edited by Anonymous; 12-31-2018 at 04:28 PM.

  20. #50
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you Ricky,
    I completely understand I'm an addict and I know I can't do just 1. It's never worked before. I was just needing some advice on how to get through this day to help my parents when they need me. I have the L-tyrosine, b vitamins, potassium and believe iron, that I've taken to help. I did not use it as advised above, but will do so from here on out. Thank you so much for reaching out to me. Today was a very hard day, as I was feeling better. Good enough to function but no energy. I cannot thank all of you enough, but I need to do my own work on staying sober. It's tough, but I have no other choice at this point. If I don't come out of this sober, I'm gonna lose my family

  21. #51
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Well, I got most of what needed to be done, without using any oxy. I still am curious as to what would happen by my original question...? I'm not gonna try it, but would it set someone back into day 1 of detox? Or would the detoxification just taper away? I am going to go back through this whole thread. I do realize I need to participate in NA and get some professional help

  22. #52
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Well, I got most of what needed to be done, without using any oxy. I still am curious as to what would happen by my original question...? I'm not gonna try it, but would it set someone back into day 1 of detox? Or would the detoxification just taper away? I am going to go back through this whole thread. I do realize I need to participate in NA and get some professional help

    Slim, I avoided that question on purpose in my first response to you. I would hate for you to think it would be okay to use in response to my answer? In my personal opinion I don't think you would lose all progress and go back to day one but it would certainly set you back to some extent? What would be more concerning would be the relief that the oxy would temporarily provide and then most likely lead to a full blown relapse?

    You are now through the worst of the physical detox, stay the course as things will continue to improve as you rack up more clean time! I hope and pray that you find the strength and courage to stay off this junk forever? Find a meeting to attend and/or go see an addiction counselor ASAP? Stay strong, you can do this! Take care... Keep us updated please? God bless us all!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 12-31-2018 at 07:28 PM.

  23. #53
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    The temporary relief is not of greater importance to me, it was just situational and I'm glad I chose to stay away, even with access to them. I would love to stay off of the junk forever and it is going to take a lot of work. I've done it before ( it was mandatory) and I just have to stay focused on what's important to me... Which is my family. I am going to find a meeting to attend for some support. Thank you for your kind words and general positive thinking. I'll try to stay in touch on this thread. Let's start this new year off clean!! Happy New year and thanks again!!

  24. #54
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    The temporary relief is not of greater importance to me, it was just situational and I'm glad I chose to stay away, even with access to them. I would love to stay off of the junk forever and it is going to take a lot of work. I've done it before ( it was mandatory) and I just have to stay focused on what's important to me... Which is my family. I am going to find a meeting to attend for some support. Thank you for your kind words and general positive thinking. I'll try to stay in touch on this thread. Let's start this new year off clean!! Happy New year and thanks again!!

    I'm glad that you decided not to take any opiates, you made the right decision and you should be very proud of yourself! One thing that you said in this last post that is of great concern! You said "I'm glad I chose to stay away, even with access to them."? How easy is your "access" to the pain meds? If you have any in the house then you need to flush them immediately! You really need to cut off all the ways that you have access to those evil pills! If you are getting them from a doctor then you need to tell them that you have a problem and only prescribe you non-narcotic pain meds? If you are getting them off the streets then you need to cut off all ties with the people who sell them?

    There was a member here a while ago that said that they didn't want to get rid of their remaining opiates "just in case" and I'll never forget the reply they got! The reply was "so you're saving the pain meds just in case of what, a relapse? The best thing that you can do for yourself right now is get rid of any opiates that are in your house and make it very difficult to get any more! Stay clean this time for good, you can do it! Best of luck to you... God bless us all!

  25. #55
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    My access to them is through my father, which has been a huge crutch for me. He means well and doesn't realize the dangers it could cause me. He's a Vietnam veteran an has been prescribed pain pills for 25+ years. It's very hard to even be around him and not think of relapsing, which is terrible. It's a tough spot and I don't know what to do. I can't just NOT see my father anymore

  26. #56
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    My access to them is through my father, which has been a huge crutch for me. He means well and doesn't realize the dangers it could cause me. He's a Vietnam veteran an has been prescribed pain pills for 25+ years. It's very hard to even be around him and not think of relapsing, which is terrible. It's a tough spot and I don't know what to do. I can't just NOT see my father anymore
    First and foremost, please thank you father for me for his service to our country!

    Does your father know the extent of your addiction? Does your father freely give you his meds or do you take them without his knowledge or both? Is it possible that he can keep those pain meds under lock and key? Obviously you know what you need to do to remain clean? I hope you can figure something out concerning your father's pain meds so that you do not have access to them? Again, I wish you the best of luck staying clean! Take care... God bless us all!
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    He does know the extent of my addiction but I don't believe he realizes the consequences it has on myself. He would give me a pill if I asked him. I wouldn't take them without his consent, but it's too easy to persuade him into giving me something because "I don't feel good" Or " my back hurts" are common " problems".

    I'm struggling already today, as being an addict my mind won't go anywhere other than thinking of using or not using. I'm gonna try the L-TYROSINE and b vitamins suggested above, to see If it will give me some energy. My legs just feel like Jell-O

    Thank you for your quick replies. Hope you have great New Years!

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    I'm helping my parents work on their house and I am so tempted to use again. I know I can't. I know I shouldn't. But I don't know what to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    I'm helping my parents work on their house and I am so tempted to use again. I know I can't. I know I shouldn't. But I don't know what to do
    You need to get to a meeting ASAP or get some one on one time with an addiction counselor? There are meetings usually several times a day/night? Doesn't necessarily have to be NA, you can go to AA as well as Smart recovery? You can easily find where and when these meetings are happening just by doing a search online? Whatever you do, don't use, you will regret it big time! I'm hoping that you stay the course, you are through the worst of the withdrawals now! I know it's hard, really hard! Be stronger than the drug! God bless us all!

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    You need to get to a meeting ASAP or get some one on one time with an addiction counselor? There are meetings usually several times a day/night? Doesn't necessarily have to be NA, you can go to AA as well as Smart recovery? You can easily find where and when these meetings are happening just by doing a search online? Whatever you do, don't use, you will regret it big time! I'm hoping that you stay the course, you are through the worst of the withdrawals now! I know it's hard, really hard! Be stronger than the drug! God bless us all!
    I'm just trying to stay busy and keep my mind off of it. I do need to get to meeting. I never imagined I could be held prisoner to a substance like this. Thank you again for your kind words and I'm going to give it my best to take your advice

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