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Trying Suboxone for the first time
  1. #1
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Trying Suboxone for the first time

    I've been taking Oxycodone for about 3 years. Averaging about 10-30mg/day. Occasional days at 100+mg here and there. I'm trying to kick it and I'm scared >>>>less. I went through the withdrawal symptoms when I was younger, but I was on OC and all that good stuff.

    I just bought (2) 8mg strips. I plan on taking 4mg for 2 days, 2 mg for 2 days, 1 mg for 2 days and so on.

    Do you think this will work?
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  2. #2
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    I've been taking Oxycodone for about 3 years. Averaging about 10-30mg/day. Occasional days at 100+mg here and there. I'm trying to kick it and I'm scared >>>>less. I went through the withdrawal symptoms when I was younger, but I was on OC and all that good stuff.

    I just bought (2) 8mg strips. I plan on taking 4mg for 2 days, 2 mg for 2 days, 1 mg for 2 days and so on.

    Do you think this will work?
    Welcome!

    Oh I'm glad you found us and decided to post. In my opinion, it will be a mistake for you to use subs and most especially to use them the way you are considering. Try to be patient with me and I'll try and explain.

    Subs are a very powerful opiate estimated to be 30 times more powerful than morphine. First, based on what you described as what you are taking now subs would be overkill plain and simple. Secondly, because they are an opiate all you would do by taking them for a few days would be to delay the inevitable symptoms and because of the extraordinary long half life that subs have, your symptoms will probably hang around longer than they would if you just jump from what you're taking. Another thing that I want to say before I forget is that also based on what you've been taking, even 4mg is WAY too much. There are H addicts that can get stable on 4mg of sub a day and even less. They are that strong. So if you do decide to go ahead and use those subs I bet that 1 or 2mg (but no more) would temporarily eliminate your withdrawal symptoms.

    OK. Now that I've explained that, I wonder what I can say to you to convince you to do this cold turkey. If you take your last dose of percs on Thursday night, you can surely muscle through Friday. I've cold turkeyed detoxed from massive amounts and my Day 1s (I've had a ton of them!) was not horrible at all. In fact, I was able to work a full day and it wasn't until that evening that the symptoms began to arrive. I was even able to snatch a few hours sleep that night. Days 2-4 were the worst of it and on Day 5 the worst of the physical stuff abruptly stopped. There are a lot of over the counter supplements that can help with the symptoms. Have you ever read the Thomas Recipe? You can find it here or Google it and it'll pop right up. It's a list of things you can buy to treat the symptoms. Plenty of hot baths, heating pads for your legs and other aches and gallons of water or Gatorade. It's really four days of feeling like poop and it's over.

    Because of the strength and half life of subs, in order for them to work it has to be inducted very slowly and then tapered very slowly usually taking around 6 weeks. Unless you're prepared for that, I really wish you'll consider just stopping.

    Let us know hat you think. Whatever you decide, ask questions and keep posting. Tons of support and advice around here from great folks. So glad you've arrived and are going to put the madness to bed.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you so much for the quick response. I have tried to quit cold turkey and I can never make it halfway into day one. I am absolutely terrified of going through this. I honestly think the 6 weeks program would be best for me. There are other deciding factors as to why I cannot go through these withdrawals. Work, sports, my family, and starting a new job. I am very weak when it comes to this. I took my first 2mg sub strip this am. Need to know how to do the 6 week program. Any help is greatly appreciated.

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    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey slim. Welcome to the forum! I agree with Cat. I think C/T would be the way to go for you right now. Subs are crazy strong and using them on an "as needed" basis isn't what they are designed for, and rarely do the short tapers work with them. That is not to say you can't do it. The choice is yours. You're going to have some w/d symptoms regardless. But if you want to take the subs, you're gonna need to induct the subs, and to do that you need to be good and sick in w/d. Have you seen the COWS sheet? You can Google it. You need to score a 26 on the sheet to be sure that you can safely take the subs and avoid precipitated withdrawals. My thinking is that if you're already there why not just ride the wave for a few more days and be done with it? It won't be easy, but after about a week you'll be done with the physical side of your detox.

    Keep posting and let us know what your plans are going forward. We are here to help!!

    Have a great day!!
    Beef

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Hmmm. So you've decided to do a Sub taper. OK. Your journey, your choice. I wish you'd have held off taking any Sub until someone advised you on how to do it because I think you'd have needed less than 2mg but it is what it is. Be sure that you don't take anything else today. That 2mg is going to hold you at least that long. If you begin to feel symptoms, it's your head telling you so. Not criticizing, it's what we do when we haven't taken our drug of choice. I think that we learn to equate being in withdrawal with NOT having a buzz. You shouldn't get a buzz from the subs. You should just be symptom free.

    Thank goodness that you didn't have any precipitated withdrawal symptoms. That's always a danger when deciding to take a first dose but I won't go into it because it's too late now to worry about it. In order to do this right, I would suggest to you that you don't take any more sub and allow yourself to go into withdrawal. Once you get sick, you should begin with small doses of sub by taking a .5mg (1/2mg) piece and wait an hour. If you still feel symptoms, then take another .25 (1/4) mg. Continue to add 1/4mg once an hour until you are symptom free and that would be your daily dose. If you don't want to to do that, and something tells me you don't, then use that 2mg you took today as your beginning dose. Take that at the same time everyday either once a day or split it into two doses of 1mg and take one in the morning and the other 8-10 hours later. Be sure to cut your doses accurately and to take your dose(s) at the same time everyday. If after 4 days you are symptom free, then you can begin to make 25% reductions. So your next dose will be 1.5mg/day. you may or may not feel some mild symptoms with the reduction but they'll resolve and when you're stable (no symptoms) you can reduce again. Usually 4-7 days between reductions. It's important to NEVER make a reduction unless you are symptom-free or it'll follow you the rest of the way. Continue to make those reductions until your daily dose is .25 (1/4) mg per day or less and then you can make one more reduction, do skip days, or jump. You can decide that when you get there.

    Ask questions if you have any and post every day to let us know how you're doing. Are you going to be able to get enough subs to follow this plan to the end? I sure hope so because you don't want your supply to dry up before you're done. That wouldn't be good. When we're used to taking so many mg of our drug of choice, we think that we can surely stop the subs at such a tiny dose of 1/2mg per day. Well that's just not true. Unless you get your dose down to that 1/4mg or less, stopping will not be fun.

    I'll look for your next post. Good luck and be sure you ask questions if you have any.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Beefaroni, I just looked up the cows sheet. I will take the test on my lunch break

    Cat, I was not ignoring your advice as to quit cold turkey, I just had already taken the 2mg piece. Would it be a good idea to maybe get into a program or see a Dr to get these prescribed? Where can I get info of places to go? I will definitely try the method you are suggesting.

    I'm feeling ok. Seem to be getting mild chills and discomfort (probably mental) but I am functioning just fine.

    Thanks again for all of your guys help. This is such a great community of people.
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  7. #7
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Beefaroni, I just looked up the cows sheet. I will take the test on my lunch break

    Cat, I was not ignoring your advice as to quit cold turkey, I just had already taken the 2mg piece. Would it be a good idea to maybe get into a program or see a Dr to get these prescribed? Where can I get info of places to go? I will definitely try the method you are suggesting.

    I'm feeling ok. Seem to be getting mild chills and discomfort (probably mental) but I am functioning just fine.

    Thanks again for all of your guys help. This is such a great community of people.
    No offense, Slim. You'll get used to us. I always try to say what I mean and mean what I say. It's just my advice and it's up to you to make your own decisions. Our job around here is to give you info, advice, suggestions and support. All the work and the decisions belong entirely to you.

    I think that it would be a great idea to get into a Sub Doctor to be sure that you have enough Subs to see this thru til the end. Just Google "Suboxone Doctors" and you'll find a page or a thousand that you can put in your zip code and it'll give you the list. Might take a call or two to find one who can take on new patients. Remember that these doctors deal with addicts all the time so you should be honest with him/her about already taking them. That doctor undoubtedly is going to prescribe insane doses. Nod your head and agree with him/her, get your script and get outta there. Unfortunately, most of these doctors aren't fans of using subs and tapering to get off of them but instead believe that you should be on them long term. He/she may even go so far as to tell you that you need to be on them for a very long time or you'll relapse. That's hogwash. Your recovery is up to you. While you're doing your taper take advantage of that time to begin your recovery work and to learn how to live sober. The subs will help to get your clean, but long term needs you to do the work. Daily lecture complete.

    Let us know how you do and keep posting! Always ask questions if you have them and be sure to share how you're feeling. That way we can try and give you the best advice.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    If I were to try to C/T now, after taking a 2mg dose, would I be worse off than I would have been before taking it?
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  9. #9
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    If I were to try to C/T now, after taking a 2mg dose, would I be worse off than I would have been before taking it?
    You'll probably be perfectly fine. If that's what you want to do, DON'T take anymore sub. It might delay the full onslaught of symptoms by a day or so but it'll be ok. Honestly, I hope that you decide to do this cold turkey. Even with the proper sub taper, you're apt to have slight symptoms with each drop and once you jump it can take a few to several weeks to balance out. With a cold turkey, the symptoms are intense but compared to subs they are short lived. Once the acute detox is over (around 5 days) you might have some trouble sleeping. As best as I can recall my sleep was pretty sketchy for a couple of weeks but then I began to get enough. You may not have that much trouble though. I used for nearly 20 years at over twice what you are taking. Plus, I was in my mid 50's for my last cold turkey. You're younger and will bounce back quicker. The other issue that will hang around for a bit after your detox is that you might be low on energy. Some of that is related to sleep issues. Otherwise, the aches and RLS will be done.

    I don't know about you but I'm the kinda person who just wants to rip the bandaid off and cold turkey is the way to get it done. I know it's not for everyone but knowing that it'll be over in a few days really helps. Remember that no matter how uncomfortable you are. One of the things that seems to make it hard to get through those five days is that the symptoms don't usually get GRADUALLY better but instead stay consistent once they peak on Day 2 but around Day 5 they're gone. I guess we expect when we feel that bad that improvement is gradual and when that doesn't happen we can't take it. This is doable so I hope that you just go for it. Get that bring it on attitude.

    Hope this helped. Ask questions if you have any and keep posting!!

    Peace,

    Cat
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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you so much Cat, you are so inspiring. I will take your advice. I've actually felt great all day today. I have to run my scenario by you for the rest of the week and see what you think.

    So tomorrow I will be working during the day and after I get off work I am going to a final interview to fill out some paperwork for a new job. I will have Friday, Saturday and Sunday off of work. After feeling great today, do you think I will still feel good tomorrow to make the interview, without taking any more? I have some hydrocodone in store just for when things get bad. Would it be a bad idea to take this before the interview if I am not feeling good? It will have been approximately 33 hours since my dose this morning.

    I also may have the option to take off five or six days in between jobs if that would be a better option. I just cannot function at work and new job going through withdrawals

    Again, thank you guys so much
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-28-2018 at 03:03 PM.

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    I'm also considering doing the small dosage of Suboxone to find my level. What amount should it be possible to taper down from? I can get a total of 24mg minus the 2 I took today. If that could possibly be enough for me, I may like to take that route. I just need to find the best solution to where I'm not sick at work, bc I cannot function

  12. #12
    Wavision is offline Member
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    If you can induct at 1mg and stay there for 7 days. Then make the following drops

    .75
    .56
    .41
    .31
    .25
    .18
    .125

    The first 7 days would use up 7mg of the 22 you have left. After that you should drop every 4-7 days or when you are completely stable. If we assume it takes 7 days at each dose to get stable that would mean the rest of your taper would use 18mg. Add this to the 7mg you induct at and you are at a total of 25mg.

    However, you definitely should be able to make most of the drops are 4 or 5 days, freeing up an extra few MG to make this work with what you have.

    That is if you Def want to go the sub route.
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  13. #13
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the breakdown, Wavision. What's the best way to make sure I'm cutting the pieces correctly??

    Cat, could you play devil's advocate here, and tell me why I shouldn't do it the way Wavision is stating?

    Thank you all for the input
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  14. #14
    Wavision is offline Member
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    What I did was got a rx film cutting guide online for $10. Just Google "rx film cutting guide" and it will be the first site. You download and print it. It shows you have to cut basically any dose size. You just lay the strip on the sheet of paper then place a ruler over the strip and line it up with the cutting lines on the paper. Then gently drag a box cutter along the ruler on the strip and and it will make your cut lines.

    Then use a small pair of scissors and tweezers to make the cuts.

    Its important to have all your doses the correct sizes and I couldn't imagine doing the taper without this cutting guide.

    I think what cat is saying is you could have this over and done with in 5-7 days rather than introducing a very powerful drug in sub. You said you can take some days off between jobs, so CT could be a better choice if you can tough it out for a few days.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-28-2018 at 04:37 PM.
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  15. #15
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Hi,

    I see you got help with the taper schedule should you decide to go the sub route.

    Happy to play devil's advocate here especially because I'm a strong advocate of cold turkey when someone's usage isn't off the charts and in the scheme of things, your's was not. There's no mistake, however that you will feel it when you stop. Having those extra hydros unfortunately probably won't do you much good. You may still have enough of the sub in your system that it's going to block the effects of the hydro. Hard to say at this point because you've only taken that one dose of 2mg. The half life of sub is 36-72 hours and that's the HALF life. If I were you and you aren't feeling well enough for your interview I'd try the hydro as opposed to more sub if you intend on doing a cold turkey. Who knows? Maybe they will work well enough to get you through. If you decide you want to do the sub taper, then I'd reinduct the sub to see how low a dose you need to get stable. I think if you want to cold turkey then using the hydro for a day or two is the lesser of two evils to just get you thru without getting more sub in your system and delaying your cold turkey. It's hard to say how you're going to feel tomorrow. Again, if you decide to go cold turkey, no matter what don't take any more sub! I think I'd give those hydros a try because they have a short half life so that when you're ready to detox you'll be ready without waiting for more sub to dissipate.

    I'm glad you felt well today but you are at a cross roads, my friend. It's time to decide what course you're going to take and commit to it. The worst thing you can do is to go back and forth with the sub. If you're going to do the taper, then make that decision and do it. If you want to cold turkey, DO NOT take any more sub.

    The fact that you can get a week off from work is even more encouraging to go cold turkey. Let's look at this one more way. If you do the taper, you are going to feel slight symptoms on and off throughout your entire taper. When you do jump, you will feel much the same as you will after you've finished with a cold turkey detox--tired and heavy. One big difference is that after a cold turkey, this doesn't last as long and another big difference is that your jump from subs would be around six week from now and then add on the lethargy after the jump. With cold turkey, you can be completely clean is less than a week, the worst of the intense symptoms behind you so that you can begin to get balanced and get your strength and stamina back. A cold turkey will have you in great shape in a matter of a few weeks long before you'd even be done with a sub taper never mind the recovery after the jump. If you're like me and most every other addict, when we want something, we want it now. The quickest way to getting back to "normal" (whatever that is!) is to suck it up for those five days and get it over with. All my opinion,of course and the final decision is all your's.

    How's that? lol Have I convinced you yet?

    Peace,

    Cat
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  16. #16
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    OH by the way I need to mention that if you do take some of those hydros as a rescue, you're going to have to allow yourself to go into full withdrawal before you attempt to take more sub. It would be possible to send yourself into precipitated withdrawals if you dose the sub too soon after taking a short acting opiate and trust me, you don't even want to know what that feels like.

    More the reason to decide what you're going to do and commit to it or you'll be setting yourself up for unnecessary bouts of having to experience withdrawal symptoms. Do this right and you won't have to do it again...ever. Go back and forth with the subs and a short acting opiate and you'll be having to put yourself into withdrawal over and over again. Not a good choice.

    Peace,

    Cat
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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you very much Cat. I think I have made my decision. It lies within me to make the right choices of course and to stay strong to my decision. I think I'm going to taper using hydro until I get that time off. I do have a couple perks left if I need to taper with those. Then, go cold turkey. Again, I'd like your opinion
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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    What would the best options be to taper on something other than Suboxone? It's going to be about 2 weeks until I have time off, so I can start my detox. I have a few Vic and perc. What about low doses of methadone? I'm not planning on mixing this stuff, just asking for the best way to taper over the next 2 weeks

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Thank you very much Cat. I think I have made my decision. It lies within me to make the right choices of course and to stay strong to my decision. I think I'm going to taper using hydro until I get that time off. I do have a couple perks left if I need to taper with those. Then, go cold turkey. Again, I'd like your opinion
    Oh you're singing my song! That's exactly what I'd do. Keep us updated and I for sure will be here to hold your hand a little when you're ready. When is your time off?

    I'm more than a bit biased but I think you've made the right decision.

    Peace,

    Cat
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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you so much, you truly are awesome. Sorry for posting so much, but wlid love your opinion on the above comment as well. I'm limited in finding hydro. I may have enough, but oxy is much easier to get
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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    Thank you so much, you truly are awesome. Sorry for posting so much, but wlid love your opinion on the above comment as well. I'm limited in finding hydro. I may have enough, but oxy is much easier to get
    There's no such thing as posting TOO much. In fact, the more you post, the better. Hydro or percs doesn't matter. They're both short acting so you'll be fine. Just be careful with them and keep your use in check and only to get you to your time off. OK? Stay away from the methadone. Yikes! Just stay away from the methadone and anything else that has a long half life.

    Peace,

    Cat
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-28-2018 at 08:48 PM.

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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Ok. I know I can do this. When things get messy is when I'm going to need the most help and support. I do have a support group in my home. I will be posting along the way.
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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    I'm struggling only a few hours into the day. Im really wanting to take something just for preventative measures. I really have to be in good shape for the final interview today
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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    I'm struggling only a few hours into the day. Im really wanting to take something just for preventative measures. I really have to be in good shape for the final interview today
    Hi Slim,

    So weird to say this, but go ahead and try the hydro or percs that you have. If they don't work, don't take any sub though. You're in the cross hairs because you don't want to set yourself back by taking more sub (NO, NO, NO!!) and I'm not sure how much the hydro or perc will be blocked at this point. You'll know. Just don't get sucked into taking too much trying to get it to work. Either it will or it won't. Remind me when you're going to be able to take a few days off of work.

    Let us know how you do.

  25. #25
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    Cats advice is spot on if you ask me.

    Unless you are a hardcore drug addict and too weak to suffer a few days of short acting opiate acute withdrawals, I'd stay far away from crazy strong, and the side-effects of suboxone - let alone its wicked withdrawal if you can't taper properly.

    Don't open up that can of worms. Just my two cents You can do it.

    Look at the majority of the posts here. It's all about getting OFF sub. You're one step ahead already. Taper with the hydro if you can. JMHO.

  26. #26
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the reassurance. I am not going to touch these subs. I took 5mg of hydro. Don't feel too bad. I think my mind is getting the best of me. I used to use very hardcore. Those withdrawals were terrible. I believe I'm thinking it's going to be just as bad, when it probably won't. I'm gonna stick with 5mg a day at first and see how it goes.

    I really appreciate the motivation. It's tough to do this and be a responsible adult. It wasn't so bad when I was younger and no responsibility.

    I will keep everyone updated. Thanks again

  27. #27
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    And when you're done with the hydro taper, consider having some low dose naltrexone on hand to reset your opiate receptors and flood your brain with endorphins. You'll need to prepare in advance as it's not readily available. Start researching now and plan ahead. This should help you with PAWS - low energy and depression.

  28. #28
    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    How could I obtain naltrexone?
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    Slim727 is offline Junior Member
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    I'm trying to gauge my tolerance to see what amount of hydro works to function. How long do you think the Sub is going to last in my system? Do you think it's out by now? I felt decent today after just 5 mg of hydro, but not sure if the Sub is lingering to help with that

  30. #30
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim727 View Post
    How could I obtain naltrexone?
    The brand name for Naltrexone is Vivitrol. It was accepted by the FDA for alcoholism but as it turns out, it blocks the effects of opiates. Most insurances won't cover it unless your diagnosis is alcoholism and it's can be prescribed in tablet form to be taken every day or you can report to a clinic once a month for an injection that remains active for 30 days. My opinion, especially early on is if you want to go this route, get the injection. All it takes is a weak moment one day to decide not to take that pill and it's open season for a relapse. These clinics generally know the drill that they need to treat alcoholism to get insurance companies to cover it but if you do decide to do this, I'd go in and just tell them you have alcohol issues. When you have time, Google Naltrexone or Vivitrol so that you can learn more about it. It's a bit of help for people who need to get some clean time under their belts.

    How you feeling?

    Peace,

    Cat
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