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Day 2 of Roberts plan
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    Default Day 2 of Roberts plan

    Hi to the group. Really inspiring stories and so grateful to be here. I am ver grateful for Roberts plan. I am on day 2 after the induction process which took 17 hrs. To those that are new out there or detoxing right now, I think the sub way is the way to go. I had gotten up to 25 mcg of fentanyl every other day and 6 10.325 norcos a day. I am fairly thin so it didn't take me long to hit moderate withdrawals- about 17 hrs. Doc tried switching me to butrans patch a couple of years ago but knew nothing abt inducting so I had to rough it out for a whole month it precipitated w/d's and it was hell. Switched docs to someone who knows how to do this the right way. I ended up finishing out yesterday at 1.5 so I took 1.25 this am. I do know I seem to metabolize stuff pretty fast. Already feeling kinda >>>>>> and I'm not up for a dosing until 9. Have really been trying to stay active during the day.

    For me, the stomach cramps, rls, and electric like pain were the worst symptoms I had during induction. Doc gave me clonodine to help with sleep last night but it didn't do much- I think it helps more for the anxiety. Benadryl helped a lot with sleep. I had been taking lunesta for sleep while on Pain led but new PM doesn't want me taking it anymore. All for the better.

    I was on the fence between cold turkey and suboxone and I can honestly say, I could have made it through 4 days of that. But that's just me. I salute anyone who can. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

    After a few days as is in the plan, I plan to cut my dose down 25%. I started on pain meds due to inoperable vertebral fractures in my back and have taken medications now for 7 years. But I am done with this stuff and ready to be clean. I've been going to meetings. I know it's not fun at first and I don't really have time but I also know that once I take the leap off this >>>> that I will need the support. My husband is an alcoholic which makes getting clean hard but I have very sweet and supportive children. I respect everyone has their own support groups but I also know that using is also about the triggers. Those don't go away when the medication does.
    Best wishes for everyone and Godspeed. Thanks for the replies everyone.
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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Hey good work, welcome to the forum. I started subs 30 days ago, now on 0.5mg day 2, was on oxy 200-300 a month ago.... One of the veterans should be around shortly.... but it's kinda slow here on the weekends though so it might take a day...


    You should be having no physical symptoms after the induction.... like within a couple hours at most of taking your induction dose. If you still have physical symptoms, there could be more to fix in terms of getting your dose just right, or some time in letting your body adjust. Definitely there should be no bad RLS or anything after inducting. Are they still there, or are they gone after inducting on the sub?

    I know the first 1-2 weeks were no picnic for me in terms of mood/energy/motivation but no physicla symptoms like restless legs or diarrhea, but I turned a corner after those 1-2 weeks and I have been feeling really good these past 1-2 weeks as I continue the taper on down.


    Best of luck to you! More veteran help should be here shortly.
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    Thanks dsh. I think I may need a small .25 bump in the afternoon here so maybe closer to 2 mg is more realistic but I don't seem to need it until the evenings which is consistent with my original back pain issue so Im happy with taking the 1.25 in am and then total of 1.75 in pm.

    Doc's going to try a steroid injection on Tuesday. This will be my fourth in the last several years. They don't seem to help much but he is the new guy and he seemed pretty convinced that my root cause issue is my spine rotating causing my facet joints to rub against my rib junctures (bone on bone- they have nerve endings in the bones). He said he had the exact same issue himself many years ago and thinks it will help so hopefully it works. I am thinking of everyone out there suffering and so grateful that this process exists. I wish you the best with the continued taper. Good to hear also that it gets better after a couple of weeks. The insomnia does suck. I'm trying to not nap though so I'm really tired at night. God bless everyone out there going through this!
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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Thanks dsh. I think I may need a small .25 bump in the afternoon here so maybe closer to 2 mg is more realistic but I don't seem to need it until the evenings which is consistent with my original back pain issue so Im happy with taking the 1.25 in am and then total of 1.75 in pm.

    Doc's going to try a steroid injection on Tuesday. This will be my fourth in the last several years. They don't seem to help much but he is the new guy and he seemed pretty convinced that my root cause issue is my spine rotating causing my facet joints to rub against my rib junctures (bone on bone- they have nerve endings in the bones). He said he had the exact same issue himself many years ago and thinks it will help so hopefully it works. I am thinking of everyone out there suffering and so grateful that this process exists. I wish you the best with the continued taper. Good to hear also that it gets better after a couple of weeks. The insomnia does suck. I'm trying to not nap though so I'm really tired at night. God bless everyone out there going through this!
    When I first started subs, I took 10mg the first day, and 6mg the next 2 days. On day 2, all that sub combined in my system and I went from being tired all day and sleeping all day, to feeling really wired and had tons of difficulty sleeping..... so I tapered quickly off of the high doses to 4mg daily and the insomnia went away after a second night of it. I feel like it's a pretty common reported symptom that taking subs too late in the day leads to insomnia but everybody is different.... If you are having trouble with insomnia, perhaps change the dosing schedule so that you take the most right in the AM, and then take the other half, or the other 1/3 or whatever a bit earlier like 1pm-3pm range so that the insomnia won't be there.

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    Thanks for the reply and positive vibes. I figure the first couple of days are the worst getting the stuff out of our system. I started induction at 1 am so I've tried to move my doses to 9 am and 9 pm so I'm not taking it too late. Do you take it every 12 hours?

    I slept pretty decently last night but then I had only gotten a couple of hours of sleep the night before. I almost think dividing it 3 times a day at equal doses is better because the afternoon and evening my pain is worse. Particularly around 4 or 5. It's kind of weird. I guess I'd rather be a little sleepless than be in pain, although I really look forward to being totally clean. Do you go to meetings dsh? I find them helpful but the program is pretty critical of swapping any drug for another. Honestly I think there would be more people getting clean if they went this route then worked a program >> trying to go cold turkey.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Thanks for the reply and positive vibes. I figure the first couple of days are the worst getting the stuff out of our system. I started induction at 1 am so I've tried to move my doses to 9 am and 9 pm so I'm not taking it too late. Do you take it every 12 hours?

    I slept pretty decently last night but then I had only gotten a couple of hours of sleep the night before. I almost think dividing it 3 times a day at equal doses is better because the afternoon and evening my pain is worse. Particularly around 4 or 5. It's kind of weird. I guess I'd rather be a little sleepless than be in pain, although I really look forward to being totally clean. Do you go to meetings dsh? I find them helpful but the program is pretty critical of swapping any drug for another. Honestly I think there would be more people getting clean if they went this route then worked a program >> trying to go cold turkey.
    I take it twice a day, around 9am and then 2pm. But since I am on 0.5mg now, it's just once in the AM. Some of the crowd here don't advocate 3 times a day as they say it's addict behavior, but it's up to you. Also, the chronic pain is gonna be a factor. If you need to take subs 3x/day to relieve the pain... what will you do for the pain when the subs come lower and lower? Do you even know how your pain is anymore when off opiates? Some its been so long they have no clue anymore what their pain would be - even if any - off opiates. You will need a solution for the pain if it becomes a big problem after holding the opiates.

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    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Hi to the group. Really inspiring stories and so grateful to be here. I am ver grateful for Roberts plan. I am on day 2 after the induction process which took 17 hrs. To those that are new out there or detoxing right now, I think the sub way is the way to go. I had gotten up to 25 mcg of fentanyl every other day and 6 10.325 norcos a day. I am fairly thin so it didn't take me long to hit moderate withdrawals- about 17 hrs. Doc tried switching me to butrans patch a couple of years ago but knew nothing abt inducting so I had to rough it out for a whole month it precipitated w/d's and it was hell. Switched docs to someone who knows how to do this the right way. I ended up finishing out yesterday at 1.5 so I took 1.25 this am. I do know I seem to metabolize stuff pretty fast. Already feeling kinda >>>>>> and I'm not up for a dosing until 9. Have really been trying to stay active during the day.

    For me, the stomach cramps, rls, and electric like pain were the worst symptoms I had during induction. Doc gave me clonodine to help with sleep last night but it didn't do much- I think it helps more for the anxiety. Benadryl helped a lot with sleep. I had been taking lunesta for sleep while on Pain led but new PM doesn't want me taking it anymore. All for the better.

    I was on the fence between cold turkey and suboxone and I can honestly say, I could have made it through 4 days of that. But that's just me. I salute anyone who can. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

    After a few days as is in the plan, I plan to cut my dose down 25%. I started on pain meds due to inoperable vertebral fractures in my back and have taken medications now for 7 years. But I am done with this stuff and ready to be clean. I've been going to meetings. I know it's not fun at first and I don't really have time but I also know that once I take the leap off this >>>> that I will need the support. My husband is an alcoholic which makes getting clean hard but I have very sweet and supportive children. I respect everyone has their own support groups but I also know that using is also about the triggers. Those don't go away when the medication does.
    Best wishes for everyone and Godspeed. Thanks for the replies everyone.
    Welcome to the forum. Subs are a great tool if used correctly! Saying that, subs should only be used a last resort option after repeated failed attempts at quitting opiates through trying cold turkey and tapering methods first!

    Please read through hopingtobeclean's thread, here's a link - https://www.drugs.com/forum/prescrip...off-73164.html

    There is a lot of great information and advice in hopingtobeclean's thread that will definitely apply to you! Best of luck to you! Take care... God bless us all!
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    Yes hopingtobeclean's posts are helpful. Given the commitments with my family and work, I was looking at subs or rapid detox in a facility. My pcp who is the most independent party to my back issue and being on medication so long thought this would be the best approach for me. Not sure if you saw my other post but they are going to try another steroid injection (new pm doc) but this time put me to sleep when they do it. I'm hopeful that it will treat the source of the pain with my vetebral fractures. I'm in less pain now than on opiates.

    I'd rather take the medication just twice a day (on day 3 now) but it seems like later in the day is much worse. My big thing is that I wanted to induct at the lowest dose possible. Today I tried dsh's suggestion and took less this morning so I could take the greater dose in the afternoon/evening when my back pain and rls are worse.

    I've also been going to NA meetings pretty regularly which I know is important to deal with the psychological component of my pain and triggers. Quick question for the group, if I took my first dose Friday at 1 am would I be on day 3 or day 4 if I stopped taking the pain medication Thursday morning? Happy easter/ Passover and may god bless us all!

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Yes hopingtobeclean's posts are helpful. Given the commitments with my family and work, I was looking at subs or rapid detox in a facility. My pcp who is the most independent party to my back issue and being on medication so long thought this would be the best approach for me. Not sure if you saw my other post but they are going to try another steroid injection (new pm doc) but this time put me to sleep when they do it. I'm hopeful that it will treat the source of the pain with my vetebral fractures. I'm in less pain now than on opiates.

    I'd rather take the medication just twice a day (on day 3 now) but it seems like later in the day is much worse. My big thing is that I wanted to induct at the lowest dose possible. Today I tried dsh's suggestion and took less this morning so I could take the greater dose in the afternoon/evening when my back pain and rls are worse.

    I've also been going to NA meetings pretty regularly which I know is important to deal with the psychological component of my pain and triggers. Quick question for the group, if I took my first dose Friday at 1 am would I be on day 3 or day 4 if I stopped taking the pain medication Thursday morning? Happy easter/ Passover and may god bless us all!
    Robert usually advocated a total of 5-6 days to get stable and get on a good dose and feeling normal, taking those days to adjust a bit as needed like when to dose, or plus minus a little bit of sub based on reading your body. So, it's all up to you. I would make sure that you take the first 5-6 days to make whatever little adjustment you need to on timing and doseage amount to get as comfortable as possible by day 5 or day 6. After that, hopefully you will be feeling pretty decently normal on subs. When that happens, you can start tapering on down spending 4 days at each dose. Of course, it's all up to you and how you read your body. If after 4 total days of being on suboxone including the induction day and you feel absolutely terrific/great/normal, then go ahead and make that first 25% drop. Just don;t spend less than 4 days at each dose amount. That's the absolute minimum amount of time needed for the previous stop's dose to wash out, so you can truly read your body and tell if it's accepted your current dose and if it has then it's time to drop. Just make sure you get all your tinkering in on the first 5-6 days so that you can be as stable as possible before the drops every ~4 days start. If more time is needed, by all means take it and take those extra days at each given stop. Slow and steady wins the race. You don't gotta finish first, you just gotta finish. If you read carefully the Robert plan, one of his main principles is to be on as little sub as possible for the shortest time as possible. So, those considerations are already taken into account when he says go for 25% drops every 4 days, and take 5-6 days for the induction/stabilization process to occur. You shouldn't go any faster than that, his plan is already built for maximum speed off sub and taking as little a dose as possible. Some of my drops like from 1.5 to 1 and 0.75 to 0.5 (where I am currenently am) are 33% drops and not 25%, but don't really think that makes that much of a difference and is probably well within the margin of error of the cutting of my ragged strips of sub.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-16-2017 at 03:12 PM.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Yes hopingtobeclean's posts are helpful. Given the commitments with my family and work, I was looking at subs or rapid detox in a facility. My pcp who is the most independent party to my back issue and being on medication so long thought this would be the best approach for me. Not sure if you saw my other post but they are going to try another steroid injection (new pm doc) but this time put me to sleep when they do it. I'm hopeful that it will treat the source of the pain with my vetebral fractures. I'm in less pain now than on opiates.

    I'd rather take the medication just twice a day (on day 3 now) but it seems like later in the day is much worse. My big thing is that I wanted to induct at the lowest dose possible. Today I tried dsh's suggestion and took less this morning so I could take the greater dose in the afternoon/evening when my back pain and rls are worse.

    I've also been going to NA meetings pretty regularly which I know is important to deal with the psychological component of my pain and triggers. Quick question for the group, if I took my first dose Friday at 1 am would I be on day 3 or day 4 if I stopped taking the pain medication Thursday morning? Happy easter/ Passover and may god bless us all!
    Keep in mind suboxone is not a full opiate like oxycodone or methadone. It does not produce the euphoria, and the pain control aspects are debated and mixed. Some countries suboxone is used in low dose (like 0.25 to 0.5mg/day) in the form of a patch to control chronic pain, but those doses are for opiate naive patients unlike you and I. I really don't know how well suboxone works to control chronic pain in those ppl coming from opiate habits for real chronic pain issues to suboxone as I used opiates completely recreationally. Perhaps maybe someone with that kind of experience can chime in? Or maybe dig up a few old posts from ppl that came from situations like that and see what happened with their chronic pain as they tapered suboxone?

    I dunno, but it definitely is important to make sure you have a plan in mind to help control the back pain as the suboxone dose goes lower and lower and you get further and further away from the days of full opiate use. There will liekyl be a rebound effect and your back pain will like be worse in the first 1-2 weeks as you switch from full opiates to partial opiate like suboxone - kind of like how withdrawal symptoms are always like the reverse of symptoms/side effects of your DOC. Your brain is used to full opiates to quench the back pain, so getting only suboxone might likely cause some intensified rebound pain for like 1-2 weeks, but after that you should be able to truly read how your chronic back pain is without the help of full opiates.

    Hopefully, the injections work out, but otherwise it might have to be some combination of physical therapy/ NSAIDS/lidocaine or icy hot patch, or yoga or whatever to control the chronic physical back pain if it comes back with a vengeance. I really hope it works out. Rooting for you!

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    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Yes hopingtobeclean's posts are helpful. Given the commitments with my family and work, I was looking at subs or rapid detox in a facility. My pcp who is the most independent party to my back issue and being on medication so long thought this would be the best approach for me. Not sure if you saw my other post but they are going to try another steroid injection (new pm doc) but this time put me to sleep when they do it. I'm hopeful that it will treat the source of the pain with my vetebral fractures. I'm in less pain now than on opiates.

    I'd rather take the medication just twice a day (on day 3 now) but it seems like later in the day is much worse. My big thing is that I wanted to induct at the lowest dose possible. Today I tried dsh's suggestion and took less this morning so I could take the greater dose in the afternoon/evening when my back pain and rls are worse.

    I've also been going to NA meetings pretty regularly which I know is important to deal with the psychological component of my pain and triggers. Quick question for the group, if I took my first dose Friday at 1 am would I be on day 3 or day 4 if I stopped taking the pain medication Thursday morning? Happy easter/ Passover and may god bless us all!
    Happy Easter to you too! I don't understand your last question, what are you exactly asking when you say "if I took my first dose Friday at 1 am would I be on day 3 or day 4 if I stopped taking the pain medication Thursday morning"?

    Just an FYI, subs are really not that effective at relieving pain! And also take into consideration that you will not know what your true and accurate pain level is until you are off all opiates for a month or two? You can look up "opiate induced pain" to better understand what I'm talking about? Update when you can? Be well... God bless us all!

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    Happy Easter to you too! I don't understand your last question, what are you exactly asking when you say "if I took my first dose Friday at 1 am would I be on day 3 or day 4 if I stopped taking the pain medication Thursday morning"?

    Just an FYI, subs are really not that effective at relieving pain! And also take into consideration that you will not know what your true and accurate pain level is until you are off all opiates for a month or two? You can look up "opiate induced pain" to better understand what I'm talking about? Update when you can? Be well... God bless us all!
    Yes, as I expected, suboxone a poor option to control pain. Again, give it 1-2 weeks to try to read your true level of back pain.

    Remember, when we all first started, I used 5mg oxycodone it would make me high and super euphoric for 8 hours. At the end of my habit, I wouldn't have been able to even get as fraction as high on 300mg of oxycodone as I first did on 5mg. So, think about it like this: if at first 10mg of vicodin controlled your pain, and then you lost control and started to take it for more than just pain reasons and you moved up to 50/day, and then 100mg a day habit.... your brain needs 100mg a day just to feel normal. Taking just 50mg will make you uncomfortable - sneezing/runny nose/body aches/back pain flare, etc so your pain went from being able to be controlled at 10mg of vicodin, to now flaring at a 50mg dose. Your body and your pain level adjusts to opiates over time. So, when you come off the full opiate and go to suboxone, you will have that rebound flaring for a bit, so please try to give it time like at least 1-2 weeks of just on suboxone before you try to read what your pain level truly is at with the back. The week before I inducted on suboxone, I would feel a weird brief ache on the side of my big toe every now and then...nothing I spent any time getting bothered about. When I went opiate free for 24hr and inducted, during that 24hrs I got RAGING pain in that toe that woke me up from sleep. I finally looked it, reaalized I had been developing an ingrown toenail during all that time that infrequent flash of pain in the toe was happening 1 or 2 times a day during the past 2 weeks. My opiate habit was covering it, and stopping opiates made the pain rage out of control in a rebound effect kind of day, but I kinda cleaned out that area, pain resolved slowly in 1-2 days, but nevertheless my opiate habit was basically making it so that I would need 300mg of oxcodone to keep some mild ingrown toenail pain at bay.

    The first 2 weeks on suboxone I was very tired/lethargy/poor mood/not motivated. That wasn't typical of everyone's experience, and I've really turned a corner this past 2 weeks and felt great, which is also not typical of everyone's experience. So everyone is different. I nkow when i frst started subs those first 2 weeks I'd always feel tired so I could nap and would want to nap at any given time. Slept at 9pm just so I could get done with the day and cross that off my list and mvoe on to the next one.

    Remains to be seen what will happen in a week when you return to work. For the vast majority of ppl, if they don't feel comfortable right away after inducting on subs, 5-6 days should be more than adequate as long as you are reading your body during that time, and making some small adjustments here and there such as time of day to dose and size of dosing plus or minus a bit. Just make sure you are sure that 1.5mg is holding you and is very near to where you are. Don't lie to yourself because you want the induction dose to be as small as possible. Robert would always say the most important thing isn't the dose itself, but that it makes you feel stable and normal. Hopefully, after 5-6 days thats more than enough time for the vast majority of ppl to feel normal again with normal energy/mood/motivation which will make ti fine to return to work.

    There are plenty of stories on here of ppl stopping opiates friday AM, inducting Saturday, and returning to work just fine on Monday because they instantly felt normal. Feeling normal quickly on subs is actually the rule, not the exception fortunately. Look up a thread on the suboxone forum by a guy named Fiks2017 or osmething liek that. It shouldnm't be too far down. Hes coming from a very similar situation to you. Back pain patient, got his pills from a doc, one day he realized his monthly supply was out in a week and he realized the jig was up. Started to go off opiates friday AM, inducted saturday, felt great immediately, and back to work on Monday. He's not even posting anymore, which I think is always a great sign for the most part... he got what he needed from this forum in terms of the information needed and the plan, enacted it, and exited back to resuming his normal life. It should only be like 10-15 posts down on the first page of the suboxone forum.


    Perhaps you should throw a reply in there? Tell him you are also coming from a place of chronic back pain. Ask him how his pain is doing nowadays. He was one of the ones too far out from using opiates to even know how his back pain was anymore (if it even existed anymore since he had several procedures on it in the interm during his opiate use), and if it returned, what strategies he used for it, and how the suboxone taper affected his back pain.

    I posted alot of his thread, I bet once in awhile he will continue to check back and report on us as he just began his journey like 1.5 weeks ago so maybe stop by there, check it out, read what he and I said on there, post a reply, and hopefully he sees it and gives you and I an update.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-16-2017 at 03:44 PM.

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    Thanks dsh. Yesterday was a little rougher. Around 5 seems to be kind of rough. I ended up taking 2.5 over the course of the day. That being said, I think that likely it was when the opiates were likely moving finally out of my system. Ganapentin has worked for the chronic pain probably better than anything thats not a narcotic. I've also started regular massage and walking (nothing too crazy). I would say I have much less pain on subs than I did full opioids. I almost think they contributed somewhat to the pain. I'm rooting for you too!
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    Thanks dsh and Ricky. Just found out my only living grandmother died on Friday- while I was going through my induction. Lost her son (my biological dad) to cirrohsis in January. So it's tough news. I will look for that guys post but I honestly feel better on subs than opiates. It's not the euphoria that I was ever chasing just trying to cope with the pain. But I guess that's it's own thing. I've been sleeping okay but I'm sure the depression. Is around the corner once my brain starts re-wiring. Very grateful for this board and all of you guys!
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    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Thanks dsh and Ricky. Just found out my only living grandmother died on Friday- while I was going through my induction. Lost her son (my biological dad) to cirrohsis in January. So it's tough news. I will look for that guys post but I honestly feel better on subs than opiates. It's not the euphoria that I was ever chasing just trying to cope with the pain. But I guess that's it's own thing. I've been sleeping okay but I'm sure the depression. Is around the corner once my brain starts re-wiring. Very grateful for this board and all of you guys!
    Sorry for your loss. Hang in there and keep posting! Take care... God bless us all!
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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Thanks dsh and Ricky. Just found out my only living grandmother died on Friday- while I was going through my induction. Lost her son (my biological dad) to cirrohsis in January. So it's tough news. I will look for that guys post but I honestly feel better on subs than opiates. It's not the euphoria that I was ever chasing just trying to cope with the pain. But I guess that's it's own thing. I've been sleeping okay but I'm sure the depression. Is around the corner once my brain starts re-wiring. Very grateful for this board and all of you guys!
    I inducted at 10pm on a day. Took 2.5mg, the WD symptoms went away, and went immediately to sleep. The next day I woke up tired/fatigue/no motivation but not physicla symptoms of WD. I was all over the place with my dose thinking it was the sub dosing that needed optimization to get my energy/mood/motivation back.

    That night of induction took 2.5, then took 2mg at a time up to 10mg on day 2 trying to fix the energy/mood issues, then 6mg the next day, and 6mg the next. On days 2 and 3 I went from feeling tired and wanting to sleep all day, to tired but at the same time feeling wired and had insomina... which was definitely a weird and unpleasant feeling. I decided without question the insomnia was all the high sub doses catching up to me due to the long half life and the very common complaint of insomnia as a side effect if you dose too late in the day... so instead of sticking at 6mg for 2 more days I went down to 4mg and stuck to the Robert taper going down every 4 days. Something happened 2 weeks in... I turned a corner, and felt great and have felt great ever since from 2mg all the way down to now 0.5mg from a mood/motivation/energy stand point and with no physical WD symptoms at all either. No idea why, but I'll take it.

    The bottom line is.. perhaps it just took 2 weeks for me to adjust to subs from a mental aspect. The physical symptoms went away immediately, but it took me 2 weeks to adjust to the mental aspect and really get my energy/mood/motivation back and I currently feel great on 0.5mg daily subs day 3.

    If you get some depression/fatigue/lethargy at some point, or are going through it now (but at least with no physical WD symptoms), I just want my story to be one story you can have in the knowledge bank, so you can know how I went. So perhaps if that happens to you, you to will turn a corner after just 1-2 weeks of your brain adjusting to subs and quickly re-learning sober living. I dunno, just rambling at this point.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-16-2017 at 05:35 PM.

  17. #17
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Justfortofay
    So you're taking 4 mg twice daily? U can prob drop down to 6 mg on day two. 8 is a hefty dose! How are u feeling now? Less is more with subs & u want to be on the lowest effective dose possible. You will feel best on lower doses. Promise!
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  18. #18
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    No I was taking 2.75 mg a day total- 1 mg in am and 1.75 in pm, but today I dropped to 2.5 mg. I got a steroid injection in my back yesterday and that really stirred things up pain wise so today I didn't drop down to the 2 mg like I was hoping. My first day of subs was Friday. My doc suggested 8 mg the first day but the first day I only took 2.75 mg total. I have thoracic compression fractures and had built up a tolerance to opioids so I am trying to get healthier even if I have to switch to a non- opioid option like gabapentin. Surgery is not an option they said until I'm paralyzed. Not very motivational there, but I am determined to do this!

  19. #19
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    No I was taking 2.75 mg a day total- 1 mg in am and 1.75 in pm, but today I dropped to 2.5 mg. I got a steroid injection in my back yesterday and that really stirred things up pain wise so today I didn't drop down to the 2 mg like I was hoping. My first day of subs was Friday. My doc suggested 8 mg the first day but the first day I only took 2.75 mg total. I have thoracic compression fractures and had built up a tolerance to opioids so I am trying to get healthier even if I have to switch to a non- opioid option like gabapentin. Surgery is not an option they said until I'm paralyzed. Not very motivational there, but I am determined to do this!
    Happy to hear you remain on the plan and are hanging in there. I am following your story and rooting for you, so you are not alone in this. Somewhere out there in the world a human being sits - me - and you have my support.

  20. #20
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    Thanks dsh- you rock! I went to a really good meeting today. I'm realizing more how my OCPD (didn't realized I had this until I started reading a really good book that starts with "Impossible to Please". I was trying to figure out how to better manage my reaction to my boss and my husband. I realize that both are control freaks in different ways and their negative behavior really can make me want to use as the stress aggravates my pain. Then I realized I am like that too- just in a different way. Really revealing. My back injection sites are finally calming down so at least I no longer have the back pain to contend with. I woke up today with a new pain shooting down my inner thigh like I pulled a groin muscle. I tried icy hot and a heating pad and it's still causing me issue. I decided that the one area I can't relent on is my previous sleep medication. I feel like if I can make progress on the opioid front then at least I can get some sleep and I'll pick away at that bastard later. Hope you're doing great!

  21. #21
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    Omg- I woke up today and I feel like total >>>>. I feel like I hit a wall literally. I can hardly move. I laid down and I feel totally wired but yet I am exhausted. At least I don't have the back pain. I almost feel like I took too much sub but I only took what I've been taking for the last week-1.25. I think tonight I am only going to take .75 and see how it goes.

    I also started taking my sleeping pill again at night so I'm going to see if Benadryl will do the trick tonight. This is pretty miserable. I worried about next week going back to work because I can't be so exhausted at work next week like this. Dsh, you went through this after your first week on subs, correct? What do you think?

    On one hand it feels like too much but on the other hand I don't want to go so low that on Monday I'm paying the price as it takes 3 days for the effects. I had been on 2.25 on weds (total) but then got a horrible cramp in my legs Weds night that wouldn't go away all day yesterday so I went back up.25 last night. 3 days ago would have been at 2.75 total so I'm pretty sure body is telling me to jump. Thoughts- 1mg 2x day or maybe even less? Seems like the minimal 1.25 this morning made me feel like >>>>. Although I was pretty groggy even before the sub. Could use some advice.

  22. #22
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Omg- I woke up today and I feel like total >>>>. I feel like I hit a wall literally. I can hardly move. I laid down and I feel totally wired but yet I am exhausted. At least I don't have the back pain. I almost feel like I took too much sub but I only took what I've been taking for the last week-1.25. I think tonight I am only going to take .75 and see how it goes.

    I also started taking my sleeping pill again at night so I'm going to see if Benadryl will do the trick tonight. This is pretty miserable. I worried about next week going back to work because I can't be so exhausted at work next week like this. Dsh, you went through this after your first week on subs, correct? What do you think?

    On one hand it feels like too much but on the other hand I don't want to go so low that on Monday I'm paying the price as it takes 3 days for the effects. I had been on 2.25 on weds (total) but then got a horrible cramp in my legs Weds night that wouldn't go away all day yesterday so I went back up.25 last night. 3 days ago would have been at 2.75 total so I'm pretty sure body is telling me to jump. Thoughts- 1mg 2x day or maybe even less? Seems like the minimal 1.25 this morning made me feel like >>>>. Although I was pretty groggy even before the sub. Could use some advice.
    Hey sorry I posted a link in my reply to a sub level calculator so I think the reply is on hold until it is approved by a moderator. I'll leave out that part and just repost it since it is getting close to teh end of the day.




    When did you start the benadryl up again? Some ppl try that for sleep during acute WD and it has mixed results it's basically 50/50. A lot of ppl report it makes things like RLS worse, so it ends up affecting their sleep as well and giving the opposite effect.

    I know when I take a hefty dose of benadryl, it makes me groggy and foggy all next morning, so I only use it sparingly.

    I'm not sure why you feel so tired today. Is it just today, or do you feel like it was a trend that has been building up? For me, like I said, yes the first 2 weeks were bad, but it wasn't like one day I was suddenly feeling very >>>>>>. It was kind of slow steady gradual improvement over the first 2 weeks, but then really good progress at around the 2 week mark and turned a real corner. But that pattern seems to be a bit not typical.... some ppl report feeling great immediately after subs, some ppl report feeling normal and good again in 1-2 days. I seem to be backwards from everybody else... the first 2 weeks on higher dose subs made me feel bad, and the last 2 weeks during taper from 2mg down to 0.25mg been feeling pretty good which seems exactly backwards from ppl.

    As long as there isn't a clear constellation of signs of withdrawal symptoms like restless legs coming back, yawning, teary eyes, whatever your first signs of WD are (we are all unique), then it probably isn't a problem of not enough sub, and it doesn't feel like that seems to be the problem either. Has the feeling improved throughotu the day today? How do you feel now? Less is also more with subs. I didn't believe ppl when they said you would feel your best around 2mg, but it was true, I probably felt my best from 1.5mg down to 1mg/day ranges.


    Again, one of the biggest mental barriers of subs to get over is the long half life. We know it has a long half life, but it really takes some strong mental power to really accept that doses 2 even 3 days ago could still be working on you. It's one reason why, for example, someone on a consistenet 2mg/day dose for years, and then quits for a couple weeks during a relapse, is part of the reason they will feel bad when restarting the subs the first couple days. Back when they were maintaining on subs taking 2mg/ day, the math comes out to about 3x your daily dose of total blood level of sub due to previous dose buildup. So when those ppl restart their sub after their relapse it takes a couple days of getting 2mg daily in them before they get that total blood level back up again, plus agian the switch from their DOC back to subs. (full to partial agonist).




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    If you google suboxone taper calulcator blood level or something like that you should find a handy tool that lets you visualize your blood levels of sub over time and the buildup from previous days' doses that someone from a different site made. If it doesn't work for you on google chrome, then you can install Microsoft Silverlight and view it in firefox, I know thats what I had to do to make it work. You can see if there's been a huge buildup lately that could explain your symptoms, or maybe a huge drop that you weren't aware of in your sub blood levels, see if that correlates any way to how you been feeling. If you can't find the little tool, then perhaps once the mods approve the older reply the link will be there. SHould be a safe link to post per rules.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-21-2017 at 06:39 PM.

  23. #23
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    Thanks dsh. Last night I took the sleeping medication (lunesta) and woke up groggy. I am thinking as well that the dose in prior days was fine. Today I almost feel like the combo between the lunesta and the sub dose was what brought me down. As discussed I only took .75 to total out 2 mg total today. I think I was feeling the brunt of the prior days' higher doses. I had been feeling fine on the subs until I started taking the sleeping pills again. So maybe I will skip the sleeping pill tonight. The piece on the Benadryl aggravating RLS is interesting. I had no idea- good to know!

  24. #24
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Thanks dsh. Last night I took the sleeping medication (lunesta) and woke up groggy. I am thinking as well that the dose in prior days was fine. Today I almost feel like the combo between the lunesta and the sub dose was what brought me down. As discussed I only took .75 to total out 2 mg total today. I think I was feeling the brunt of the prior days' higher doses. I had been feeling fine on the subs until I started taking the sleeping pills again. So maybe I will skip the sleeping pill tonight. The piece on the Benadryl aggravating RLS is interesting. I had no idea- good to know!
    A couple very important things to remember while you are tapering. Dose at the same time/times everyday! It's recommended to dose twice a day early on in the taper then switch to once a day when you get down to 1mg or less (when dosing twice a day split your daily dose evenly). Also, when dosing twice a day take your doses 8-10 hours apart. Just as important is to not do a reduction until you are completely stable on your current dose! The 4-5 days between reductions is not set in stone, if it takes you a day or two longer to become stable then so be it. Keep your reductions to 25%, reducing by more can cause unnecessary discomfort? Do not rush the taper, slow and steady wins the race! Wishing you all the best... God bless us all!
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  25. #25
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    Thank you Ricky! I think the reason I felt badly yesterday was the sleeping medication. I just took Benadryl last night instead and feel much better today. I'm really starting to journal people, places, and things- the triggers that seem to create stress which contributes to pain which contributes to my desire to rid myself of the pain. Starting to consciously come up with strategies on how to deal with stress and flip the concepts on their head.

    The injection the new pm did on Tuesday seems to have done the trick and I don't have much underlying pain other than some new joint aches in my hands. But those are manageable. Seems that Tylenol helps with any other residual aches. I really like him- he really seems to want to come up with other ideas for pain relief than just the traditional dope. He's a DO and a master acupuncturist.

    I appreciate all the support. I realize that I have already made a big adjustment by getting off opioids and will stay at the 1 mg 2x day for the next week and if things go well at work and I stay stable, I will taper to 1.5 next Thursday. Then I will have Friday Saturday and Sunday to properly adjust to the lower dose. I don't want to relapse!

  26. #26
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Thank you Ricky! I think the reason I felt badly yesterday was the sleeping medication. I just took Benadryl last night instead and feel much better today. I'm really starting to journal people, places, and things- the triggers that seem to create stress which contributes to pain which contributes to my desire to rid myself of the pain. Starting to consciously come up with strategies on how to deal with stress and flip the concepts on their head.

    The injection the new pm did on Tuesday seems to have done the trick and I don't have much underlying pain other than some new joint aches in my hands. But those are manageable. Seems that Tylenol helps with any other residual aches. I really like him- he really seems to want to come up with other ideas for pain relief than just the traditional dope. He's a DO and a master acupuncturist.

    I appreciate all the support. I realize that I have already made a big adjustment by getting off opioids and will stay at the 1 mg 2x day for the next week and if things go well at work and I stay stable, I will taper to 1.5 next Thursday. Then I will have Friday Saturday and Sunday to properly adjust to the lower dose. I don't want to relapse!
    Sounds good. NIce to see things have improved.

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    How are you doing dsh? Have you heard from hopingtobeclean? Hope your day is going well!

  28. #28
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    How are you doing dsh? Have you heard from hopingtobeclean? Hope your day is going well!
    I'm hanging in there. A bit of low energy currently, things are day to day. Overall, I cannot complain about how my taper is going at this stage given some of the struggles of ppl at the <1mg doses. My story is one of relative ease at the <1mg doses compared to some others, so put that in the knowledge bank and hopefully you will have a similar story.

    Hang in there, rooting for you. I've been there, am there, know what you are going through. Stay strong.

  29. #29
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    You all are do it!

    Pretty amazing considering where we were before we got here!
    Right?

    Not many pill addicts get clean!

    The best news is
    You have a plan
    That works!
    Actually doable!

    I worked through mine!

    The only regret I had for a few minutes
    Was why did I wait so long?

    You got this!

    Bette

  30. #30
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    Thanks Bette! I went to a meeting tonight and there was a guy there 1 month out of rehab who tried to commit suicide and his drug of choice was not even as extreme as opioids. Just goes to show you that even drugs that seem "natural" or innocuous can be just as much killers. Really have gratitude- we met outside- the weather was perfect and beautiful. Probably the best meeting I've been to. It goes to show you how good life can be as we approach being clean. I'm also getting to be less forgetful and my husband has less and less he can try to hold over my head. I ordered a treadmill which will be delivered next Saturday so I'm looking forward to it and trying to develop some healthier habits. Nervous about work tomorrow but I'm sure it will be fine. My boss can be pretty intense.
    Lvg nghtmare and Iluv2smile like this.

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