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Help Cold Turkey Subs and Rapid Suboxone Taper
  1. #1
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    Default Help Cold Turkey Subs and Rapid Suboxone Taper

    After a heavy 3-year prescribed hydrocodone and oxycodone usage (spinal issues, healed itself), here is my "cold turkey suboxone" taper that I desperately need your help with. (I know I "inducted" horribly and stupidly....I'm sorry. It is what it is.)

    Day 0: used hydrocodone and oxycodone all day long
    Day 1: took my morning oxycodone, then 10mg Subs throughout day (experienced horrible precipitated withdrawal).
    Day 2: took 6mg Suboxone (horrible precipitated withdrawals continued).
    Day 3. took 10mg Suboxone (withdrawals started to subside).
    Day 4: took 4mg Suboxone (finally felt okay!).
    Day 5: took .06mg Suboxone (still felt great).
    Day 6: took .5mg Suboxone (started to feel w/d again, .5mg stopped them).
    Day 7: took .4mg Suboxone (started to feel w/d again, .4mg stopped them).
    Day 8, 9, and 10: NO Suboxone! (4 days clean, experiencing bad anxiety, medium w/d pain, fear, etc.).
    Day 11: took .4mg Suboxone (couldn't stand it, took the .4mg, this halted all w/d, I felt great, also felt like a total LOSER).
    Day 12: took .25mg Suboxone (w/d came back, the .25 at night halted the w/d, and made me totally high and let me SLEEP).
    Day 13: took .125mg Suboxone (during day, felt mild w/d, but couldn't stand the thought of it).
    Day 14: TODAY! So, yesterday I tried to keep busy for the first time: cleaned, vacuumed, ran errands, but panicking about the mild w/d symptoms I was feeling "once bitten, twice shy" couldn't deal with it, so I caved in and took.125mg Suboxone last night which halted w/d and let me sleep deliciously. This morning, right now, I feel weak and worried.....

    Please, with all my respect, I ask your help -- I abandoned ALL my doctors because they are ANGRY at me for not taking their recommended 24mg per day for several months ("minimum 9 months!"). I live in a small town with NO support (other than the aforementioned 24mg-per-day Suboxone doctors, and a "5-day-medical-detox" which uses Suboxone!).

    My questions:
    1.) Am I almost "there?"
    2.) While "cold-turkeying" does taking a sliver (.06mg) when I feel like I'm dying REVERT me back to square one? Or is this good?
    3.) Please help. What should I do?

    I sincerely hope my style of posting makes sense.... I tried to list each day, the amount I took, and how I felt during the day. If anything doesn't make sense, please ask me and I'll clarify.

    Again, please, I hope you can respond and help me.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi there. Welcome.

    Were you on Sub before this? You said you abandoned your docs because they wanted you to take 24 mg. Just need to clarify.

    If you're looking to just stop the Sub from here on out, it's difficult to say how you'll feel. The physical WD from the oxy and hydro is long gone, but since you took about 40 mg (?) of Sub, I'm not sure how it will affect you.

    If it were me, I'd just continue with nothing. If you only took Sub for 2 weeks, better to stop everything and just deal with what comes.

    Gotta run out but I'll check in with you soon.
    Kat
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  3. #3
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    You posted perfectly..
    I have the same question as Kat ..
    Did you ever take 24 mg of sub a day or is that what they wanted you to do.?
    If you did not and were only on sub 2 weeks I agree just stop ..

    Sub is a strange drug ..
    A great tool but a drug just the same..

    Since such a little dose is helping you so much ..
    You definely don't have a tolerance ..

    I think you should just go on without ..


    Exercise will really help ..
    Staying busy is key..

    Even when you taper the suggested way in the end it is mostly mental..

    It sounds like you are able to act as if you are ok..

    Just keep doing that one morning soon you will be ..

    I am pretty sure ..

    WAter
    Water
    So u get whatever sub you have in your system out ..

    I will check later ..

    Please keep posting it really does help!

    Rockin it clean
    In 2016 !
    Is amazing
    Right?
    Bette
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  4. #4
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    I'm the original poster. I want to thank both WantOff and 2Smile for your replies. To answer your questions about ever being on 24mg of Subs a day, the answer is a definite "No." My chart is accurate -- except I just now discovered one mistake: on Day One, I took 16mg, not the "10" mg I listed. That's my only error. The rest of the chart is correct.

    I wrote my post when I awoke this morning. Now that the day is 1/2 over, here is what I am experiencing right now:

    Half-hour-long-cycles that go like this: Medium pain w/d symptoms for a few minutes, followed by an "I CAN'T DO THIS!" panic, followed by "YOU'LL MESS THINGS UP IF YOU USE MORE SUBS" followed by rapid breathing, followed by calming down to feeling little to no w/d symptoms like right now this second.

    I want to be STRONG and not use tonight. But I told myself that if I feel like I'm going to DIE, I will use .06mg.

    What do you all think? Am I just splitting hairs? With "half-lives" and math and all that stuff (I read the average is around 45 hours), and the fact .125mg last night made me feel SO GOOD and is already wearing off..... am I outta' the woods??

    I'm battling this fear of "internet sub-w/d stories" worried that in "x" amount of days, I'll be in sheer h*ll. When the fact is, it's entirely possible I've been thru' the worst? Today, even though I'm terribly weak, I'm again forcing myself to work, talk, walk and do errands.

    Please, if you have the time, I would appreciate your thoughts, comments, and SUPPORT. Thank you!!!

  5. #5
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Hang in there. You're doing great. So you took sub each of the last 3 days after a break of a couple days after some larger doses?

    So today would be your first day taking nothing after your taper?

  6. #6
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandon3993 View Post
    I'm the original poster. I want to thank both WantOff and 2Smile for your replies. To answer your questions about ever being on 24mg of Subs a day, the answer is a definite "No." My chart is accurate -- except I just now discovered one mistake: on Day One, I took 16mg, not the "10" mg I listed. That's my only error. The rest of the chart is correct.

    I wrote my post when I awoke this morning. Now that the day is 1/2 over, here is what I am experiencing right now:

    Half-hour-long-cycles that go like this: Medium pain w/d symptoms for a few minutes, followed by an "I CAN'T DO THIS!" panic, followed by "YOU'LL MESS THINGS UP IF YOU USE MORE SUBS" followed by rapid breathing, followed by calming down to feeling little to no w/d symptoms like right now this second.

    I want to be STRONG and not use tonight. But I told myself that if I feel like I'm going to DIE, I will use .06mg.

    What do you all think? Am I just splitting hairs? With "half-lives" and math and all that stuff (I read the average is around 45 hours), and the fact .125mg last night made me feel SO GOOD and is already wearing off..... am I outta' the woods??

    I'm battling this fear of "internet sub-w/d stories" worried that in "x" amount of days, I'll be in sheer h*ll. When the fact is, it's entirely possible I've been thru' the worst? Today, even though I'm terribly weak, I'm again forcing myself to work, talk, walk and do errands.

    Please, if you have the time, I would appreciate your thoughts, comments, and SUPPORT. Thank you!!!
    I completely understand your fear of possibly experiencing bad WD and wanting to take more Sub. You've taken a lot within two weeks. It will hold most symptoms at bay. I'm not saying it will be easy breezy, but you'll be much better off if you just stop the Sub for good. If you'd been on Sub for months, I'd recommend following the taper plan. But trust me, just stop the Sub. You can handle this. Use the Thomas Recipe to ease any symptoms.

    Here's the link:
    https://www.drugs.com/forum/featured...wal-35169.html

    Kat
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  7. #7
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    Kat, and UncleLeo, thank you so much for your support!

    UncleLeo, yes, it's almost evening and I still haven't taken anything since that .125mg last night.

    Kat, I am "sorta" doing the Thomas Recipe... but without the sleeping pills (I'm done with doctors, forever), and no immodium either (narcotic). Is there anything else that I could take instead? Because if I could keep my mind from worrying about the withdrawals, I would think that would help.

    Weird question: Is beer a good idea? Alcohol has never, ever been a drug of choice, I haven't had a drink in 25 years, but I would rather drink beer for 3 days if it meant no more suboxone. Maybe beer is a bad idea... instead of just being anxious, I'd be anxious AND muddy-headed. I don't know. I'll listen if you or anyone has any thoughts on this.

    The w/d symptoms are getting tough to handle (that creepy-crawly-electrified-body-voltage-flu-pain that sends me into h*ll), but when I just STOP and focus on my body and ask my body "What? Where? Where's this pain?" then it's not so bad, so I force myself to jump out of bed, walk around, and here I am typing. I tell myself "if I can go wash my car without dying, then I don't need that .06mg suboxone yet."

    I am SO appreciating your posts. Please post anything you want, any thoughts, ideas, tips, because I sure can use them.
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  8. #8
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Like Kat said - just flush whatever you've got left so it's not even an option. Drink lots of water, a bit of Gatorade, if you can keep moving, do that as much as you can...when that runs out - Netflix marathons have gotten a lot of us through some of the tougher days Just treat yourself kindly and pat yourself on the back for being smart enough to not take the 24mg's road to hell You can always fall back on that. (And God according to Kitty or the Leo Moon this month). And no beer!
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  9. #9
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    Thank you UncleLeo!

    It's now nighttime...I made it through the day in spite of a huge panic "freak-out" with BIG w/d symptoms (the horrid body-electrical-pain-flu symptoms) an hour ago.... for some reason the w/d symptoms only lasted 5 minutes and then returned to the mild w/d symptoms I've had all day. It is unnerving when the w/d ramps up like that all of a sudden -- I almost had to take some sub right away! Why does that happen?

    I'll try to sleep now. I have .06mg measured out waiting for me in case I wake up feeling like I'm dying.

    Hopefully I can post a victorious update tomorrow (and even flush all the remaining subs!)
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  10. #10
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    FAILURE!

    As I wrote previously, I went to sleep without taking any suboxone. However, I woke up 3 hours later with raging withdrawal symptoms -- my whole body experiencing ramped-up high-voltage flu-pain in every cell every fiber -- far worse than the mild withdrawals that came and went throughout the day.

    So I took .0625mg Suboxone....waited for what felt like years, and then another .0625 a half hour later, fell asleep and slept all night and now it's 8 hours later and I feel great. A little weak, but ZERO withdrawal symptoms.

    In other words, I failed. Instead of quitting, I had to take a total of .125mg last night (which now makes 2 days in a row at .125mg), and I feel fine now. What do I do now??? Try again? Taper? I'm confused.

    Do I go ahead and do a mini-taper ... plan to take an even smaller amount (like .0625mg or .1mg) at bedtime for a couple more nights and then try to jump off again?

    Incidentally, my doctor offered to switch me off of suboxone back onto my old hydrocodone or oxycodone to taper and do a "normal-style" detox. Is that even doable? Would that be incredibly stupid considering where I'm at? Or is it something to consider?

    I'm upset, I feel like a failure, I need any advice, thoughts, tips, anything, please help. Thank you.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-10-2016 at 08:52 AM.
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  11. #11
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    You're doing great. Just slow down, take some breaths. As I learned here from Bette - it's progress not perfection. You're just learning still and much faster than most.

    Don't go back to the pills! So everyone is a bit different as far as severity of their WD...but if you set your bar at struggling to sleep and feeling like death - well, have you read people's threads? You could be one of the lucky ones that don't get that, but more people than not will have some of those days. Your body and brain and gonna have to relearn how to make their own "natural sub" so to speak.

    But don't beat yourself up. We all struggle, especially at the beginning learning... Coulda been much worse, you kept the dose low Long walks and whatever takes you to your happy place...(and healthy food)

  12. #12
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    Thank you UncleLeo for your kind words.

    I have a general question: does taking a sliver (e.g. .06mg) when withdrawals get horrible cause me to revert all the way back to square one?

    In other words, does taking just enough to stop withdrawals make a person "lose" all the "earned withdrawal days points?"

    Does that make sense? Maybe not (I'm a bit muddy headed right now), so I'll reword the question again.... Let's say a given person has to go through 7 days of withdrawals.... but on the 4th day the w/d are so bad they have to take a sliver to take the edge off. Does that restart the person so they have to go through *another* full 7 days?

    The reason I'm asking is because my method so far has been to wait until I'm going outta my mind and then just take a sliver to make it bearable.

    Thank you.

  13. #13
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandon3993 View Post
    Thank you UncleLeo for your kind words.

    I have a general question: does taking a sliver (e.g. .06mg) when withdrawals get horrible cause me to revert all the way back to square one?

    In other words, does taking just enough to stop withdrawals make a person "lose" all the "earned withdrawal days points?"

    Does that make sense? Maybe not (I'm a bit muddy headed right now), so I'll reword the question again.... Let's say a given person has to go through 7 days of withdrawals.... but on the 4th day the w/d are so bad they have to take a sliver to take the edge off. Does that restart the person so they have to go through *another* full 7 days?

    The reason I'm asking is because my method so far has been to wait until I'm going outta my mind and then just take a sliver to make it bearable.

    Thank you.
    No, it doesn't completely set you back, it just prolongs the process -- if that makes sense. If your symptoms are really so bad that you can't handle it, it's not the end of the world to get stable on a very low dose like .25 mg or .5 mg (whatever gets you stable) and then use the taper process to the letter. But if you're gonna taper, you must follow the plan correctly or you'll just be prolonging the process. Have you read the taper plan thoroughly? It's pretty basic, actually. You only rescue by 25% and ONLY when you're stable (little to no WD symptoms). Take same dose at same time every day. It's your choice whether or not to use the Sub. We'll support you either way.

    The reason I was so adamant about stopping the Sub completely is because you only took it for two weeks and any WD should be minimal. But everyone is different, so do what works for you.

    Kat
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-10-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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  14. #14
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    I am glad you are using the
    Thomas Receipe
    Non of us suggested the benzo your right
    That can be dangerous!

    But the Imodium does help and it does not cross the blood brain barrier ..
    So no high..

    But IMO if you don't want to taper using the taper Kat suggested..
    Why not try some Imodium instead of the tiny bit of sub you are taking ..

    I think it will help and then you will start to accumulate clean days and really get the sub out of your system
    And see how you feel..

    It has helped many of us in the end of the taper
    Without any issues..

    You just watch the amt you take ..
    You don't want to end up constipated..

    But it binds to the other receptors that are screaming for opiates..

    I would at least give it a try..

    Please don't be so hard on yourself!

    Opiates are by far the hardest drug to get off of!
    You can do this!
    Bette
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  15. #15
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwantoff2013 View Post
    No, it doesn't completely set you back, it just prolongs the process -- if that makes sense. If your symptoms are really so bad that you can't handle it, it's not the end of the world to get stable on a very low dose like .25 mg or .5 mg (whatever gets you stable) and then use the taper process to the letter. But if you're gonna taper, you must follow the plan correctly or you'll just be prolonging the process. Have you read the taper plan thoroughly? It's pretty basic, actually. You only rescue by 25% and ONLY when you're stable (little to no WD symptoms). Take same dose at same time every day. It's your choice whether or not to use the Sub. We'll support you either way.

    The reason I was so adamant about stopping the Sub completely is because you only took it for two weeks and any WD should be minimal. But everyone is different, so do what works for you.

    Kat
    Oops...

    I meant reduce by 25%, not rescue...

  16. #16
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Brandon
    No failure! We stumble. We get up.
    If it's too tough, why not stabilize on the .25mg and then decrease dose in a few days. Repeat.
    Better than relapse!
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  17. #17
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    How you doin this morning bud? Hope you're feeling a little better and didn't mean to worry you. Like Ming said if you can't quite get stable or are getting to unsteady then just find your small steady dose until you're ready again. We're all a little different but you got plenty of support around here so just hang in there, keep hydrated. That Immodium idea by Bette is genius
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  18. #18
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Brandon
    Yes. Imodium. Very good!!
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  19. #19
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi Brandon

    How are you doing today?
    Bette

  20. #20
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    Thank you all for your support -- I'm sorry I haven't responded for a couple days (the withdrawal symptoms kept me off the internet).

    I have just now awakened to day 3 CLEEEEEEAN!

    The first night after my 'failure' I was going outta my mind with those "high-voltage-ramped-up-flu-body-pain" withdrawal symptoms, wanting to take another 0.125mg, but I took myself to a meeting. When I got back from the meeting, I felt it would be so stupidly hypocritical to take Subutex that night, that I just forced myself to stay in bed and not get up.

    Wash, rinse and repeat the next day, and now today I think I'm feeling better!

    If anyone has any tips, or suggestions to get through today and the next, I would love to hear from you! But, I DO have one question: I feel weak, and like laying in bed all day. Should I force myself to do errands, tasks, and jobs throughout the day (e.g. vacuum, mow lawn, etc.)? I know that I would be able to, if you said "yes." Or, should I be resting, laying down all day? What do you think?
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-12-2016 at 09:40 AM.
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  21. #21
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandon3993 View Post
    Thank you all for your support -- I'm sorry I haven't responded for a couple days (the withdrawal symptoms kept me off the internet).

    I have just now awakened to day 3 CLEEEEEEAN!

    The first night after my 'failure' I was going outta my mind with those "high-voltage-ramped-up-flu-body-pain" withdrawal symptoms, wanting to take another 0.125mg, but I took myself to a meeting. When I got back from the meeting, I felt it would be so stupidly hypocritical to take Subutex that night, that I just forced myself to stay in bed and not get up.

    Wash, rinse and repeat the next day, and now today I think I'm feeling better!

    If anyone has any tips, or suggestions to get through today and the next, I would love to hear from you! But, I DO have one question: I feel weak, and like laying in bed all day. Should I force myself to do errands, tasks, and jobs throughout the day (e.g. vacuum, mow lawn, etc.)? I know that I would be able to, if you said "yes." Or, should I be resting, laying down all day? What do you think?
    It's great to hear you're getting support from meetings. Keep that up. Face to face to support and accountability is what helped me stay clean for 17 months. Once I stopped going and got lazy about my recovery, I relapsed.

    The lack of energy is the worst. Yes, it's best to get yourself moving (get those endorphins going!) but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give yourself some down time as well. Take a balanced B-100 complex and L-Tyrosine for extra energy. It helps. I also use MioEnergy water drops. Drink lots of water and eat as healthy as possible. Take walks.

    Glad to hear you're on the upswing.
    Kat
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  22. #22
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Yes just force yourself..
    I used Milo drops too..
    U add them to your water..
    By the Gatorade at the grocery..

    I still use them because I want to drink lots of water and it gets old..
    So flavoring helps..

    Idk if u saw my post about the Imodium..
    It will help
    Not set u back..
    It doesn't cross the blood brain barrier so no Hugh..
    But it does bind to the other recptors sites that are screaming for opiates..
    Just don't use it for too long ..

    But many of us used it for a day or 2 and it helped ..
    Rather than taking sub..
    IMO definely a better choice!


    I am glad you are going to meetings..


    Be proud of yourself !
    Being clean even 1 day is an accomplishment!


    Rockin it clean
    In 2016!

    Bette

    Bette
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-12-2016 at 01:15 PM.
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  23. #23
    brandon3993 is offline New Member
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    I just wanted to update everyone who has been so kind to give me their support.

    I am now on Day 11 clean!

    On one hand..... (being honest)..... when I have to go lay down for hours after just taking a quick shower because it took every ounce of my energy, well that 'ain't livin' .....

    On the other hand..... while I was laying down resting, a smile formed on my face as I thought, "I'm no longer dependent on taking opiates." .....

    Goin' to a meeting tonight!
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