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Husband inducting tonight ... need support
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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Default Husband inducting tonight ... need support

    My husband is an IV >>>>>> user. He is beginning the induction phase. We have been trying to get as many subs as we can while maintaining a demon of a habit and trying to survive financially. It's been hard bc tho he makes good money and is a hard worker, his health is poor due to the dope and his type 1 diabetes. Certain circumstances made it that the time is now, ready or not.

    We are filled with anxiety and we have not had success in the past. But we have never tried roberts plan. I am worried bc i wanted more time to research it, but we would be foolish not to raise our sails while the winds of change are blowing, so we are going for it. We have 5 8mg strips of subs and 2 of the 8 MG tablets. Is this enough? We've never tried it this way before. I am really in need of support, and so is he. Can someone help us to make a plan and maybe help us through it until we feel more confident? We are both very anxious there is so much riding on getting it right this time, you don't even know ... Or maybe you do

    Oh and we have some kratom. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this.

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    We are waiting for him to hit 26 on the COWS Sheet. He is nervous that 2mg won't be enough bc of the extent of his use and wants to start at 4mg but he said he will let me decide things so to help protect him from his own mental games. Should I stick to 2mg? And im thinking I should start with the tablets since they will be easier to divide into bigger pieces ...

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    I'm afraid of we start at 4 we might run out. It's unlikely we'll be able to get anymore.

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Welcome,

    You must be beside yourself with worry! Sorry you're having to go through this. How many sub pills/strips do you have? Are they 8mg each?

    When the last time he used?

    I encourage you to trust the plan. I've been around here for a long time and I have rarely seen anyone need more than 4mg to become stable and have that be their initial dose for the first 4-7 days. Once in a very few cases 6mg. Start slow! Even 2mg first dose is more than what is recommended. Even though it's likely he's going to need more than 2mg, it's best to test with a very small amount like 1/2mg to test the waters. You don't want to induce too soon and force precipitated withdrawal. That IS NO FUN!

    Glad you're using the COWS worksheet. Be honest and be conservative. Score a little lower than what you/he wants to do to be absolutely certain that he's reached that magic 26.

    He's going to be an unhappy camper for the next who knows how many hours but there is no choice here but to be patient. DO NOT use any comfort meds. NONE. No Immodium, no benzo, not even Advil. You want him to get good and sick and any of these will slow the process making him miserable for longer. He'll be able to get some comfort taking hot baths. The aches and RLS will return shortly after he's out of the tub but at least he can get a bit of relief there. The Kratom--bad idea in my opinion. In any event, that would certainly be considered a comfort med so put it away, better yet, throw it away.

    I'll try to hang close to the Forum tonight to see if I can help. Check in often and so will I. Have you tried to score him yet? DO NOT RELY ON HRS SINCE LAST USE. The COWS is the Bible.

    Check in soon.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  5. #5
    MrMelt is offline New Member
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    IMO start at .5mg and work your way up every 45 min. I was taking 300mg oxy a day and 1mg made me feel quite well. Subs are very powerful

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you so much for your replies! It means so much to have people to talk to who won't judge and understand.

    Yes, Cat, I am worried to death. This drug has robbed us of so much. Him, myself, our children ... everyone has suffered. But the worst has been the fear that he wold die. He is so skinny. And if he doesn't stop, he will die.

    I just nursed him back from an infected abscess in his thigh. With his type 1 it was very very scary and then right after he got pneumonia. He has a suppressed immune system and this just has to stop. He has been on 5 different antibiotics in the last 2 months and had lost weight from the dope before he got sick. Now my strong ox of a husband's ribs are sticking out. It is TERRIFYING. I am so scared to lose him.
    I am not sure exactly when he last used bc he is always trying to sugarcoat things bc he doesn't like to see me sad or upset, but I know that he is just starting to feel pretty bad about am hour ago with stomach cramps.

    Mr melt, I had a hard enough time trying to talk him down from 4. But you have given me the confidence to not be swayed and to start at a lower dose.
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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    I'm sorry, Cat. We have 5 films that are 8 mg and 2 tablets that are 8 for a grand total of 56 mg.

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    I'm sorry it took so long to reply. I had to take my daughter to dance and go to the grocery store. It would be nice if life would stop and let me catch my breath while we're dealing with this, but nooooooo. Lol ... please God let this work. I don't know how much more I can take. I am so overwhelmed and I worry bc so much depends on him. He wants it, but he's not good at the w/d part.

  9. #9
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortunabeargirl View Post
    Thank you so much for your replies! It means so much to have people to talk to who won't judge and understand.

    Yes, Cat, I am worried to death. This drug has robbed us of so much. Him, myself, our children ... everyone has suffered. But the worst has been the fear that he wold die. He is so skinny. And if he doesn't stop, he will die.

    I just nursed him back from an infected abscess in his thigh. With his type 1 it was very very scary and then right after he got pneumonia. He has a suppressed immune system and this just has to stop. He has been on 5 different antibiotics in the last 2 months and had lost weight from the dope before he got sick. Now my strong ox of a husband's ribs are sticking out. It is TERRIFYING. I am so scared to lose him.
    I am not sure exactly when he last used bc he is always trying to sugarcoat things bc he doesn't like to see me sad or upset, but I know that he is just starting to feel pretty bad about am hour ago with stomach cramps.

    Mr melt, I had a hard enough time trying to talk him down from 4. But you have given me the confidence to not be swayed and to start at a lower dose.
    I feel you. I have been in recovery for seven years. My son is an active H addict. I weigh more than him. He is mostly effected with respiratory stuff...ashma, etc. Steroids, antibiotics, you name it. He is an adult but lives with me. His breathing is always labored so I can usually hear him in the other room. If it gets quiet, I'm up to watch to see if his chest is falling and rising. Scary chit.

    Anyway, stay glued to this board. If he's beginning with stomach cramps, he's probably getting antzy too. My guess is he's been give or take six hours. He's got a way to go. Can you share this Forum with him? Let him read or you can read some posts to him. Tell him that you are on his side and you want to help him. Encourage him that this is the last time he needs to go through this and that you're stronger than he thinks so to please be honest with you so that you can ask for and get the best advice right here. Better than Doctors on Demand. Please remind him that once he is in acute withdrawal, the subs will get him feeling quite well in no time. He won't have days and days of this so stay strong.

    I asked but I don't see where you mentioned: How much sub do you have? I worry because he's an IV user and he's going to have to have enough subs to get through some time. Does he have health insurance? Anyway he can get to a sub doctor and get his own prescription? If he can, I respectfully suggest that he get his script but NOT follow the doctor's advice but to follow the plan here. Most sub doctors don't know squat about subs. The folks here have lived it. These are the people I trust.

    Check in.

    Peace,

    Cat
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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Oh, I'm so sorry cat. That is def some scary chit. As a mom, I understand too bc 3 of my children have special needs and with one of them medical crisis' and trips to the ER is par for the course. It's a crazy life that few except who lives it would understand.

    When the alarm keeps going off, it's not that he overslept, but that he must me dead. Lol ... except it's not funny.

    You have a unique perspective seeing both sides of the coin, having a loved one who is struggling amd being in recovery yourself. A big long hug for you, Cat, and assurances of prayer for you and ur son.

    I answered about the subs. We must have cross posted. Scroll up!

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    OK I see it. 56mg total. I assume you want me to be totally honest, right? I don't think that's going to be enough. The correct way to use subs is to do a slow taper. Use the dose that keeps him stable for at least 4 days and then reduce by no more than 25%. Rinse and repeat until his dose in at or below .25mg (1/4mg). Subs are very, VERY strong and have a long half life. For reference, the half life of H is about 4hrs while the half life of subs can be as much as 72 hrs.

    There have been those do have completed a "quick taper" by only using the subs for a couple of weeks at most but they then faced detox symptoms from the sub which are similar but last longer. Doesn't mean it can't be done the quick way, but there is no easy way. To eliminate most of the detox symptoms from H or other opiates, the slower the better. The chitty way we feel during and for at least a couple weeks after a cold turkey detox is was sends us back to a relapse in spite of how determined we are to not do that. I know. Terrible news.

    So--is he covered by insurance so that he can get a script and do this the best possible way?

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Question ... is the .5 mg recommendation to see if he is ready yet? Will it avoid the dreaded pw's?

    Also, if all goes well and he is stabilized, at what point do I give him the next dose?

  13. #13
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you, Cat. Very few sub drs round here. None are taking new patients, unfortunately. I did read the responses and he really appreciated the support. I hope more people eventually reply. I know you have a life too. :-)
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-11-2017 at 09:42 PM.

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    I missed ur last post, cat. Ugh that IS terrible news. I don't know what to do now, except continue on and pray something happens. That we can get more somehow.

    Poop.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-11-2017 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Edited to add poop

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Don't give him a thing until he reaches at least 26 on the COWS. The reason for the .5 initial dose is that if he does go into PW, it won't last as long as if he took more than that. I don't want to freak you out but even .5 will do harm if he's not ready. What's his score now? Do you know?

    H metabolizes relatively quickly. Check his score. I'll check in again shortly. DO NOT TEST THE WATERS WITH A SMALL DOSE. Hang in there. Check his score and then check back here. I'll check again shortly.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    I'm freaked out.
    I don't know how to tell him we don't have enough. He's so determined to see this through.

    If he stabilizes at 1mg will 56mg be enough? That is where I thought maybe the kratom could come in ...

    I'll try to figure out his COWS score.

    Again, thank you.

  17. #17
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Don't freak out. Something tells me that he wouldn't get thru the five days of cold turkey. Keep looking for a sub doctor even if you have to travel. I had to travel 100 miles for my son. Go slow with the sub to get him on the lowest dose. Personally, I think he's going to need more than 1mg but only time will tell. Is rehab a possibility?

    Check his score and I'll check again shortly.

  18. #18
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Ur right about the cold turkey. I will keep looking for a sub doctor and/or more subs. As for the COWS, he told me that it's not near where he needs to be and that I should go to sleep bc i have to work tomorrow. We're going to touch base and assess his score in the morning. That's assuming he makes it thru the night okay.

    I'm guessing we might as well keep moving forward and hope something pans out. I don't see any other way. I hope we're not making this worse for him in the long run ... God help us.

    Thank you so much for ur help and advice, Catrina.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-11-2017 at 11:42 PM.
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  19. #19
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    He's uncomfortable, but not at 26 on the COWS scale yet. I need to go to work. I'm going to come during my lunchbreak and see where he's at.

  20. #20
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortunabeargirl View Post
    Ur right about the cold turkey. I will keep looking for a sub doctor and/or more subs. As for the COWS, he told me that it's not near where he needs to be and that I should go to sleep bc i have to work tomorrow. We're going to touch base and assess his score in the morning. That's assuming he makes it thru the night okay.

    I'm guessing we might as well keep moving forward and hope something pans out. I don't see any other way. I hope we're not making this worse for him in the long run ... God help us.

    Thank you so much for ur help and advice, Catrina.
    How did everything go last night? You were the first person I thought of when I got up this morning.

    NO. You're not making this worse in any way. We have to just keep trying. There are only two alternatives and they are to keep using or to find a way to quit. Then there are only a few alternatives. The first is to taper and for IV H, well that's not really an option. Cold Turkey and just based on what you've told me, I don't think he'd stick it out. I have no personal experience but based upon what I've learned, I wouldn't consider Methadone. Finally, it's using subs and they work if you follow the plan and are dedicated to seeing it through.

    Detox and rehab is a smart choice but we as addicts fight that every step of the way until there are no options. It's not smart to avoid a facility, but that's a part of how we work, Man, that is the best stepping off choice. We usually need to try every other method before we are willing to give up and get professional help. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Frankly, nothing is going to work unless he wants it bad enough and is willing to suck it up, do it, and then do the work to stay clean.

    Please keep looking for a sub specialist. I know it's not cheap but it's cheaper than buying junk for sure and subs will likely save his life! I see so much of my son in your posts that I feel like I'm living through this with you. Please keep us posted.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    I just caught your post from this morning before work. I had started mine and had to get the kids to school so just came back and finished and in the meantime, you updated.

    It's got to be coming up on 24 hrs if he's being honest with you. He should be getting good and miserable by now. Did you leave the subs with him or do you have them? Hope by noon he's ready. Maybe he wasn't completely honest about when he last used or took a little something overnight? Everyone is different and time isn't a true indicator but I have plenty of experience watching my son detox. from H. Sorry if I'm putting things in your head. Update after you hear from him or see him at noon. I'll check in.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortunabeargirl View Post
    He's uncomfortable, but not at 26 on the COWS scale yet. I need to go to work. I'm going to come during my lunchbreak and see where he's at.

    Hello.

    Cat is providing excellent advice as she always does. I've traveled this road and wanted to give a few suggestions that will help. People usually underestimate the strength of subs. They are around 30x stronger than Morphine to give you a idea. A very tiny amount goes a long way. It usually doesn't take much to get someone stable.

    Once he hits the target score of 26 or higher on the Cows I would suggest he begin with a 1mg dose of sub and wait at least an hour. It works faster for some than it does others. Then add .5mg doses for the next 2 times followed by .25mg doses until he's stable with little or no wd's. I know what drug he's coming from, but it hardly matters with the sub. Only if someone is coming from Methadone would the inductions amout be different in most cases.

    What happens is he will be climbing the walls in misery once he gets close to a 26 score on the Cows. He'll be ready to pull all of his hair out. Moderate/severe wd's is no joke. It's a horrible feeling, but he only needs to do this once if he does it right I always say. When he does hit the 26 score and takes a small amount of sub he'll begin to feel much, much better rather quickly. A very small dose will provide him some idea that he is doing this the right way.

    By taking small doses evry 60-90 minutes will put him on the lowest possible dose and not the highest. The lower the dose of sub the better he will be feeling. Just because he's coming from H doesn't really matter with the dosing so much. If he takes 2mg or more followed by the same amount he'll never know if less would have sufficed. You want to build up the amount very slowly. Wait an hour or more between doses is always best.

    These are MY suggestions to you.

    Hope this helps. I'll try to check back later. You're in good hands with Cat I promise. Others here too know this drill very well.

    Randy
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  23. #23
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    I just read where Cat suggested taking .5mg as the initial dose and that's perfectly ok. Long as he doesn't take more than .5mg to 1mg as the first does is fine.
    Randy

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    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    How did everything go last night? You were the first person I thought of when I got up this morning.

    NO. You're not making this worse in any way. We have to just keep trying. There are only two alternatives and they are to keep using or to find a way to quit. Then there are only a few alternatives. The first is to taper and for IV H, well that's not really an option. Cold Turkey and just based on what you've told me, I don't think he'd stick it out. I have no personal experience but based upon what I've learned, I wouldn't consider Methadone. Finally, it's using subs and they work if you follow the plan and are dedicated to seeing it through.

    Detox and rehab is a smart choice but we as addicts fight that every step of the way until there are no options. It's not smart to avoid a facility, but that's a part of how we work, Man, that is the best stepping off choice. We usually need to try every other method before we are willing to give up and get professional help. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Frankly, nothing is going to work unless he wants it bad enough and is willing to suck it up, do it, and then do the work to stay clean.

    Please keep looking for a sub specialist. I know it's not cheap but it's cheaper than buying junk for sure and subs will likely save his life! I see so much of my son in your posts that I feel like I'm living through this with you. Please keep us posted.

    Peace,

    Cat
    Thank you for your support. It is invaluable. If this doesn't work, it will have to be rehab. He knows this, whether he likes it or not. He was on the methadone program for 2 years. It kept him clean and managed his pain as far as I know but im not sure whether he abused it, how it ended, or what triggered his relapse. We were divorced at the time. But we were hoping he could use something short term, instead of being on a maintenance program. But if this doesn't work I am down with anything as long as it's not the dope demon and he has a shot at life.

    I am going to keep looking for a sub specialist for sure.

  25. #25
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    I just caught your post from this morning before work. I had started mine and had to get the kids to school so just came back and finished and in the meantime, you updated.

    It's got to be coming up on 24 hrs if he's being honest with you. He should be getting good and miserable by now. Did you leave the subs with him or do you have them? Hope by noon he's ready. Maybe he wasn't completely honest about when he last used or took a little something overnight? Everyone is different and time isn't a true indicator but I have plenty of experience watching my son detox. from H. Sorry if I'm putting things in your head. Update after you hear from him or see him at noon. I'll check in.

    Peace,

    Cat
    I just don't know. He is a sloppy user amd almost always leaves evidence. Disappearing into the bedroom or bathroom,a small cup of water, an empty capsule, the belt that is looped hangman style, or the pesky white dried up film that seems to be everywhere. Haven't seen a trace. But that's not it say he didnt.

    My older daughter stopped to check on him. Said he's up and said he is feeling crazy and asking for me.

  26. #26
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you, randy. I think this info should make him understand a little more the need for a smaller dose and will make him feel better about what is coming.

  27. #27
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    My daughter called and said he was claiming he was 28 on the COWS scale. He insisted he needed it now and couldn't wait for me to get there. He took 1mg. Some of it was out of my control bc i wasnt there. I hope he doesn't go into pw's.
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  28. #28
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortunabeargirl View Post
    My daughter called and said he was claiming he was 28 on the COWS scale. He insisted he needed it now and couldn't wait for me to get there. He took 1mg. Some of it was out of my control bc i wasnt there. I hope he doesn't go into pw's.
    Well. Time will tell. It's entirely possible he is ready. Be sure he waits about an hour before he takes another dose. That 1mg will make a big difference. Probably not perfect which is why he will likely need more but will give him some relief. Keep posting! I'm watching for your updates. UGH Good luck!

    Peace,

    Cat

  29. #29
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    He went nuts and left before I got there, so I'm assuming it was too soon.

  30. #30
    Fortunabeargirl is offline Junior Member
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    He's driving around on an almost empty tank of gas with no money and desperate to find something to "hold him over." I told him to go to the hospital. I don't know what he is going to do.

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