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I've made the decision to start on subs, would like advice/help along the way
  1. #1
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Default I've made the decision to start on subs, would like advice/help along the way

    Hi, longtime lurker here. After many hours of research I have made the decision to start subs using the Robert plan.

    First, my story: Started recreational use of small dose Percs about 3 years ago and graduated to an H habit of 5-15bags/day nasal spread through the day just to feel normal/energized. When it got to the point in Summer 2016, I decided enough was enough and was tired of constantly worrying about running out and finding the next supply, spending all my money, etc. Made the decision to go cold turkey with clonidine and benzos to help. The acute WD wasn't bad, had minimal diarrhea and tons of fatigue from the sedatives I took, but otherwise OK. The problem, of course, was staying clean in that for 2-3 weeks afterwards I was constantly fatigued on no sedatives and had no energy. Supplements like Tyrosine didn't help. Decided 5mg vicodin here and there to maintain energy and make it through work until my body adjusted, and then come off that small dose, but it didn't happen like that and here I am back on 5-15 of H a day. Wanted to do ~8wk suboxone taper (Robert plan) this time as I feel my main barrier is the weeks of fatigue/lethargy afterwards that is too big a barrier to overcome so an 8 week taper might be less of a jolt to my system and give it time to adjust to being off opioids, rather than the sudden shock of cold turkey and waiting weeks to months for my body to fully recover.


    I have read tons of posts on here, including Robert's old posts. It's sad he is gone because the help he provided - by accompanying people minute by minute through their induction seemed priceless. Based on what I have heard from ppl I know, it seems like his plan is very sound and has a long track record of success based on some big points: making sure you are in full WD to avoid precipitated WD, a SMALL INDUCTION DOSE, followed by a slow 25% taper every 4 days. It appears the suboxone horror stories are from precipitated withdrawals, or people struggling to taper after being on 6months to years of 8-16mg doses which are too high of a dose given by doctors.


    Some of the caveats here: I will be getting 30x 8mg sub strips today, and another 30x in 2 weeks and I hope that will be enough. Unfortunately, am not obtaining this from a doctor and will be doing this myself. I have a strong science and medical background, and understand these drugs. I just would like a resource to help and ask questions and have support along the way. Have not decided when to start the induction yet, but it will likely be very soon and hope for the last dose of full opioid within 1-2 days. Just wanted to make this post, and get this journey started.

    Couple questions I had:
    - My biggest problem is the cravings. For example, like I said I did 5-15/day, and I am trying to cut that down as little as possible, but I find my mind focuses and obsesses on the next bag (like bag #6 of the day) when I'm not sick at all, and it's all I can think about until I fold and do it. Will suboxone definitely help with the cravings? What if I were to crave uncontrollably, and lose control and try to take a bunch of full opioid at a time to try to overcome to suboxone block? I feel like that wont happen because everyone says it works like a miracle with cravings?..
    - When starting induction, if it turns out I accidentally started a bit early but I know the first 0.25 or 0.5mg definitely helped, is that enough to be confident I'm not in precipitated WD and continue on with the induction?
    - Robert was a godsend, but the way he promised little to no physical discomfort seemed a bit dubious like a salesman. Honestly, from what you guys have heard where are the big problems along the way? Will the 25% reductions feel bad the first couple days? How often would someone fail a dose and have to take a sliver and start over the 4 days... 25% of the time? Half? Thanks.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-10-2017 at 09:33 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Congratulations on making that first step I'm not sure I'm in a place to make any suggestions, but someone will be along shortly that will know the right things to tell ya.. if however you just need someone to talk to that I can do....
    Glad your here
    D.

  3. #3
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Hey, thanks for the reply. I read your previous posts. You feel like you are alone, and have no one to talk to so you hang out here trying to pass the time. I can definitely relate. I lost my job 3 months ago, a very good job, not because of anything to do with this stuff, but partly due to just being distracted all the time focused on the habit and not my job. I, too, and currently sitting around and I find that this step has to be one I take before I get back to work again.

    I am reading about how you feel awful. I think you are suffering from classic problems as described by Robert and others. Being on too much suboxone for too long a time - 8mg and up to 16/24mg for YEARS instead of a 2-4mg induction followed by off in 8 weeks. You have also taken a huge jump from 8mg down to your current levels. No question, IMO, the reason you feel bad is the length of time and high dose of suboxone you were on has made the taper much more difficult. Your brain got used to much higher levels for too long, mixed with that fast taper.

    Also, think of why methadone is used. It is a full opioid, but lasts very long so there is less abuse potential and it's used for longterm maintenance. It's the same idea why abusers prefer oxycodone to oxycontin after the anti-abuse/crush measures were adopted in the oxycontin. Suboxone is similar to methadone but still very different - long acting like methadone, but it is a partial-agonist opioid which makes it much better than methadone for treatment of opioid abuse. I think you can think of the way you have been using such long and large amounts of suboxone and then rapidly tapering off just like you would if you were on methadone high dose for a long time, and then tapered off. It wouldn't feel good. Period. Everything including the withdrawals are gonna take much longer to process through.

    I hope that your thinking of "If I feel like >>>>, might as well feel like >>>> and taper off faster" works out. I don't know.... I just pray it doesn't end up as a suboxone horror story. I am rooting for you.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-10-2017 at 09:58 AM.

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    Yea, you summed it up... be honest I fell way better now 1mg then at any other does as for the depression and the lack of motivation, it's day 3 on 1mg so just gonna do the 25% taper from here on out, you seem very knowledgeable about the pharmaceutical stand point, guess my only question/concern would be if your habits have changed enough to jump on sub just to taper.. or would staying on a small amount of subs the tiniest amount you can take to feel "normal" for a few months to help break habits first would be best, then taper would be the plan is hope you get the Right person on here to answer your questions.
    I read a person's thread this morning that was pretty inspiring maybe check it out ming25 I think is her handle..
    Thanks d.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-10-2017 at 10:11 AM.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I don't know the answer to your question of whether maintaining on 0.25mg for several months versus jumping off completely is the best route to go. I would think that if you are on that little, it's largely a mental hurdle to go completely off than anything else. You struggle with the idea of going completely off all substances. My opinion would be that if you were to get that far and be stable on such a little dose, you need to try to get off.

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    Oh no no I do plan to get off completely, that was what I was saying to you, sorry maybe I didn't understand where you were coming from with your desire to get on subs ect.
    All good I plan to be low enough in two weeks to jump off completely give or take a day

  7. #7
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I see, you were asking me that. The reason I think I failed was because of the weeks of fatigue that followed the acute withdrawals. My hope is that 8 weeks of a slow taper off suboxone helps minimize that hurdle. My theory is that it just took too long for my body to recover from going cold turkey, and that the taper helps wean my body off instead of colt turkey so that by the time I am ready to jump, my body is ready to be drug free.

    This time around, yes it is slightly different in that I am facing much bigger issues. I lost my job at the end of 2016 like I said, my last paycheck from my severance comes at the end of March, so I have April to spend that and then I am on my own. I will need a new job (which should be not that hard to find), and a means to financially support myself. I will likely have to pass drug tests for my new job, etc etc. This behavior change is not simply just because I am running out of money, and need to pass drug tests however. It is the realization that this time around, it is my habit that played a role in getting me to this point. It is basically like rock bottom for me. Supporting my habit has again made me call my dealer every day and worry about getting the next supply. When something happens to him like he goes missing, I freak out. I've had enough of that lifestyle and realized this has to stop. CT failed last year, am trying medication assisted treatment of opioid dependence this time around and realize that it is up to me to stay faithful and stay off the drugs.

  8. #8
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Welcome to the forum dsh!

    It's an absolute pleasure to have someone join with the knowledge you have about subs, especially the induction process. You've done your homework and it will pay off for you that's for sure! You'll have the help and support of many members here. I myself read thousands of Robert's posts before I joined to educate myself as I prepared to go the sub route after many long years of drug abuse. You're going to do just fine with this.

    The induction is the most critical part to sub therapy. I put myself into precipitated wd's not once, but twice because I got in a big hurry to induct. I was coming from methadone and that's a little bit more difficult due to the long half half of methadone. I finally got it right, which provided valuable experience of how NOT to do it, then tapered the subs. I'll have 3 years clean in July.

    Use the Cows to make certain you're ready to induct. Heres the link to a good Cows below -
    https://www.drugabuse.gov/sites/defa...rawalScale.pdf

    All you need to do is score yourself honestly and accurately. Get to a score of 26 or higher and it's safe to induct. And you're so right about taking SMALL doses until stable. Begin with .5mg or perhaps 1mg and wait at least an hour between doses. Sub works faster for some than it does others.

    With the amount of 8mg strips you'll be getting that's PLENTY to complete the entire process from induction to final jump. More than enough.

    Will Suboxone help with the cravings? Yes, it certainly will. I spent nearly 18 years abusing every drug on earth and during my entire time on subs I did not have a single craving and that's the honest truth. I had absoliutely no desire to ever use again.

    Will the 25% reductions feel bad the first couple days? It's possible on SOME doses as your body adjusts to the new lower dose. It may take a day or two for your body to become aquainted with a lower dose, but when that happens you'll usually feel much better on the 3rd or 4th day. That's why we say spend 4 "or so" days on each dose. You may require spending 5, perhaps 6 or 7 days on a particular dose. And again, you may not. Play it out and see how it goes. Your body will always let you know when the time is right to reduce.

    Taking slivers. Slivers, or "rescue doses" as we call them are not intended to be taken when you're on a higher dose over 1mg per day. Sub is strong with a real long half life and a single dose of 1mg or higher will last for 24 hours, usually much, much longer. Our heads sometimes make us think different. Slivers are meant to be taken when you're struggling and feeling symptoms under 1mg per day. And taking a rescue dose should be done no more than twice, once being best. Don't want to get in a habit of "reaching for something" when things get a bit rough. Lets face it, you'll be getting off a strong drug and a little discomfort is to be expected.

    I think I answered your questions. If you follow the plan closely you'll do just fine. Ask all the questions you have and try to post daily, it really helps. You CAN do this so no that. Let usk now when you're ready to induct. Just make sure to use that Cows as it takes all the "guessing" out of knowing when to induct.

    Take care,
    Randy

  9. #9
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    One other thing....

    Robert325 jumped from a .5mg dose, and that's fine if you want to do that. But we've since found that's it's better if you go lower than that. Many now reduce to at least .25mg and either jump there, skip days, or taper even lower. I myself tapered to .125mg and that had a very posiotive effect on my jump. It was as painless as it could be.

    The day skipping process is underrated in my opinion. I didn't use it but sure wish I had. Again I wanted off and didn't want to take the extra 7 or so days to do that. The day skipping helps you to prepare mentally to being off the sub and also helps the long half life catch up with itself. You can think about it later, just wanted to bring it up for thought.

    Randy

  10. #10
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Randy - you think if his main issue is the weeks of fatigue and blahs that subs are still the way to go in this situation?
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    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleLeo View Post
    Randy - you think if his main issue is the weeks of fatigue and blahs that subs are still the way to go in this situation?

    Good question, UncleLeo. Yes, I thought about that. You know I've always said that subs should be the LAST choice made to get clean. They're another opiate (partial-agonist), and need to be tapered. Cold turkey and tapering the drug of choice should be attempted multiple times in my opinion first. But sometimes those methods just aren't working, even if the persons habit isn't a large one. It's a tough call Leo, and one that need to be made by the individual involved.

    Weeks of fatigue and blahs could signal another underlying issue that only a doctor could determine. Maybe, maybe not? I took dsh's post to mean he/she was at the end of their rope so to speak. Maybe subs is the right choice? Maybe not? My post was meant to provide information only, not make a decision.

    Thanks UncleLeo for your concern.

    Randy

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Thanks for bringing this up. This is the exact kind of discussion I wanted in order to clarify what I was getting myself into. The more I think about it, the harder it is for me to say exactly why I relapsed. I guess, my expectation was 4-5 days of feeling miserable, and then just one day waking up and all of that was gone and I was back to normal. That is what was described by a lot of people, but I don't think it's the norm as it appears heavy users for years go through days of awful acute WD, then weeks of slow recovery with lethargy that could or could not be true PAWS. I think after ~2 weeks of going through that extreme lethargy I was sick of feeling like that. Just to see what would happen I took a sniff of a 1/4 of a bag and I felt great again for 2-3 hours. That really scared me, that it still seemed to be very physical and very related to the opiates. That led me to the idea of trying 5mg's throughout the day which led me to a full relapse.

    So, I guess you could say I relapsed after ~14 days after still not liking how I felt. Call it a failure due to the blahs that followed, or just call it a failure period, I'm not sure. I just know know that I was feeling run-down and there was definitely a physical component that opiates could immediately fix, and that's how I relapsed.

  13. #13
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    My main fear with the suboxones were the horror stories - weeks of withdrawals and feeling bad and weaning off being just as bad as opiates but much longer like methadone. I felt that at least with cold turkey, in the end I was IN CONTROL. If it came to that, I could make the symptoms stop if I wanted to instantly. With suboxone, my fear with a 72hour half-life was that if I ever screwed up, did something wrong, put myself in precipitated WD, went down too fast, or something, would get caught in a 5-7 day period of feeling miserable where I was waiting for the suboxone to leave my system before switching back to something that would get rid of the bad feelings. Also, it was the consistent supply and needing to actively see a doctor to get them.

    It wasn't until I read the Robert plan, and exactly why he recommended the things he did (small induction dose, 4 day taper, brief stint as possible on suboxone) and his assurances of the ease of the physical symptoms that I became sold on attempting this route. Then, I read some of the users' stories that Robert walked all the way through induction through tapering as you could read their posts like a play-by-play and I made the decision to try this.

    Last time, I was still working and did it on an off-week. This time around, like I also said, I am without a job, needing to find work coming up, likely moving to a new city (which comes with severing all my old connections) and I need this to just get a clean start on things. That is also another motivating factor on my attempt this time around.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-10-2017 at 12:48 PM.

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    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Well, we definitely all understand. I've been here two years now and have only learned a few general things. One - everyone is so damn different. It sounds like we at least have some history for you to work with - as well as a bit of a timeline.

    The second thing I've learned - and this is applied more broadly, hopefully Cat and Mingy read this too and can chime in - but with the longer half life for the sub - your fatigue and lethargy just lengthens because it leaves your system more slowwwwly. But if you just can't handle the cravings etc...

    Either way - as we all say here - there's no magic - you're gonna have to pay the piper at some point. The good news is you came to the right place and people can talk you through each stage and what to do that will help

  15. #15
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Welcome!

    To sub or not to sub? That is the question and one that only you can answer. it sounds to me that you're ready to do the taper and you understand the drug itself and Robert's Plan. That gives you a huge leg up.

    I just read all the posts on your thread. I've never used subs myself but I've been an active member here for over 7 years. I've followed many people here doing their best to get and stay clean including cold turkey, tapering, and subs. I've learned a lot. I could never taper, but I did try many times. I had also detoxed cold turkey many times and my last one was in January 2010. The symptoms and duration of a cold turkey detox are very predictable. It's true that the worst of they physical symptoms including, aches, RLS, hot/cold bursts, anxiety, diarrhea, and insomnia will mostly end by around the fifth day. It's also true that this is followed by a period of being weak, lethargic, and continuing to have problems with sleep. These symptoms aren't uncomfortable, in my opinion, but they absolutely wear on you. I used heavily for almost twenty years with a few short breaks in the action. I began to be able to sleep for around 4 hours around my three week mark and was sleeping 5 or 6 hours a night consistently in about a month. That, it turns out is the amount of sleep I need because it's still what I get almost every night. I'm sure the lack of sleep contributed a lot to my lack of motivation and general malaise.

    PAWS is a lot less common than some people may believe. I don't believe that the continued symptoms after the initial detox is PAWS, but instead is the period of time it takes for our bodies and minds to heal and the time it takes for our brains to begin to refire all of those feel good chemicals. The definition of PAWS (my understanding) it the reappearance of detox symptoms weeks and months after our initial detox. The people I have read about having PAWS symptoms mostly complained about RLS flaring up again and over the course of 7 years, I don't think I've seen more than 2 or 3 people report PAWS.

    Anyway, I just wanted to add my two cents here. It seems that most, if not all, people who have completed their sub taper do have a period of adjustment once they do jump having low energy and the blahs. I don't think that there's any free rides. I don't say this to scare you but instead say it so that perhaps you'll give cold turkey one last consideration if the main reason you are choosing subs is to try to avoid how you felt after your last cold turkey. Especially because you have some time without having to go to work, you can create your recovery plan, complete a week of detox, and then implement your plan before you return to work.

    This is your decision and it's wonderful that you do have a couple of choices. Make the one that feels like it's the best one for you. Our means of transportation to recovery isn't important so long as we get to our destination. Lots of support awaits you right here whatever your decision.

    Peace,

    Cat

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I think the most devastating thing about my attempt last year was the day I felt better from the acute WD on day 4 thinking it was all over. I came clean to 2 of my friends about my habit and how I was done, thinking I was ready to start a new life. Then, the weeks of lethargy kicked in and broke me, still have not told those 2 ppl I relapsed which is something I'm pretty ashamed of.

    My main fear of trying suboxone was the experience like someone coming off methadone - weeks of feeling a consistent mild to moderate but not severely bad. The Robert method had special reasons for why physical symptoms would be minimized - small induction dose at 2-4mg instead of 8 or 16mg, and a short 8week target of total taper as opposed to being on it for 6months to years at 16 or 24mg. It seems doing it this way does the best at minimizing physical symptoms - although I admit yes it will come time to pay the paper. When I read people like UncleLeo's and other people's stories who describe several weeks of feeling awful after jumping off, they all were maintained on higher doses for much longer and while they tapered on the Roberts schedule did not start induction at 2-4mg range and did not stay on suboxone for only 8 weeks.

    For the ppl that followed that Roberts plan all the way through and just maintained on suboxone for 8 weeks, their stories do seem to be much better from a symptom standpoint when they jumped off. That is what I am hoping for and I would like to see if anyone could answer my question on whether doing the small induction dose and fast 8 week taper versus being on this stuff for years makes the difference when they jump off?

  17. #17
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    I think the most devastating thing about my attempt last year was the day I felt better from the acute WD on day 4 thinking it was all over. I came clean to 2 of my friends about my habit and how I was done, thinking I was ready to start a new life. Then, the weeks of lethargy kicked in and broke me, still have not told those 2 ppl I relapsed which is something I'm pretty ashamed of.

    My main fear of trying suboxone was the experience like someone coming off methadone - weeks of feeling a consistent mild to moderate but not severely bad. The Robert method had special reasons for why physical symptoms would be minimized - small induction dose at 2-4mg instead of 8 or 16mg, and a short 8week target of total taper as opposed to being on it for 6months to years at 16 or 24mg. It seems doing it this way does the best at minimizing physical symptoms - although I admit yes it will come time to pay the paper. When I read people like UncleLeo's and other people's stories who describe several weeks of feeling awful after jumping off, they all were maintained on higher doses for much longer and while they tapered on the Roberts schedule did not start induction at 2-4mg range and did not stay on suboxone for only 8 weeks.

    For the ppl that followed that Roberts plan all the way through and just maintained on suboxone for 8 weeks, their stories do seem to be much better from a symptom standpoint when they jumped off. That is what I am hoping for and I would like to see if anyone could answer my question on whether doing the small induction dose and fast 8 week taper versus being on this stuff for years makes the difference when they jump off?


    You nailed it with the above quote. Those that follow Robert's plan CLOSELY do have the best sub experiences. I've said this multiple times previously, but all the "horror" stories are always for the same reasons....

    Uneducated sub doctor.
    On sub for months and months, including years.
    Inducting on way too high of a dose.
    Tapering by too many mgs.
    Tapering much too fast.
    Not tapering low enough.
    Jumping from way too high of a dose.

    Those are the main reasons. If you read someone statement that they are struggling with their sub therapy experience it's almost always because of one or more of those reasons. And many that have had positive experiences after their sub taper no longer remain on the forum, but instead are living their lives clean and free of addiction most likely.

    Whether you go the sub route of not it's in your best interest to use Robert's plan as advertised. That's not to mean it can't be tweaked a bit when the time comes. For those that use subs are Robert describes thier experience seems to be a successful one.

    Randy

  18. #18
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Randy,

    Thanks for the encouragement. After thinking about this a long time, I want to go ahead and give this an honest and determined shot. I honestly don't have anything to lose at this point. Things like finding a job will require some energy, some hopefully maintenance therapy will be there to provide that. I should be getting the subs later today. 30x 8mg strips and then another 30x 8mg in 2 weeks if I need it, but hopefully not.

    I will need to set a time for my last dose. I am working right now on just minimizing my daily usage. I binged like 25 bags a couple days in a row last week which was basically rock bottom. I am working on getting that down over the past few days, for example yesterday it was ~10 and today I expect 8-10. I think somewhere in the next 24-48 hours I expect to plan my last dose.

    I want to thank you guys for taking your personal time to come on here.

    Here are the following immediate steps I need to take now, in order:
    1.) Acquire the subs this evening. Still waiting on that but it should be today 99%.
    2.) Decide on when my last dose will be. Which, hopefully, will be somewhere in the next 24-48 hours. It will be difficult as everyone is different, but I would like to try to time things for when symptoms are their worst around 3-4pm so that it won't be midnight with nobody around, and still with a good 4-6 hours to slowly titrate up the dose and still be in normal waking hours. If people can be around poking their head in and out for that, that would be great but I understand we all have our own lives and whoever is on will be whoever is on.
    3.) Work on getting as sick as possible in preparation for the induction. My first CT, the symptoms honestly were not that bad, just extreme fatigue from all the benzos and clonidine. I had no appetite, but never had any nausea. Just mild diarrhea, but again the worst was the fatigues and general body aches, aside from the cravings and minute by minute clock watching which were #1. No goosebumps, shakes, chills. I hope that when I go it this time, without any meds, I can get a pretty good sense of where I am at with the COWS worksheet.


    Oh, and finally, I do not see a private message feature anywhere here. Is that an option? If so, Randy would it be possible to shoot me a PM real fast? Thanks.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-10-2017 at 03:35 PM.

  19. #19
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Has there been any talk of an SSRI(lexapro) or an SNRI (cymbalta) being used in the weeks after going off opioids? Opioids work by activating opioid receptors, which then release tons of happy chemicals (serotonin, epi, norepi, dopamine) and over time due to the drug use the other receptors that accept those happy chemicals greatly go up in number to accommodate and hence you get tolerance being built.

    Once you go off the drugs, you got all those receptors sitting waiting for high amounts of sertonin and etc but not enough being made by the opioid receptors that aren't being pushed into overdrive by taking drugs. It likewise takes a long time for those receptor numbers to go down just like it took a long time to make them go up and get your tolerance up.


    SSRI and SNRI's seem to work by increasing the neurotransmitters that are also increased by opioids. It would make sense that these drugs would help restore the natural balance in your brain. Has there been stories of people having luck using these drugs to get feeling normally again more quickly after cessation of opioids?
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-10-2017 at 03:52 PM.

  20. #20
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Hi again. I'm glad you've made a decision and that Randy was around to help. I certainly concur that inducting on the lowest dose possible and doing a proper taper is what makes the most difference with the outcome.

    Yes. There have been folks who were put on an SSRI after their detox and/or during and after their sub taper. They mostly reported having good results with that compared to previous detoxes. Knowing the physiological impact opiate addiction has on our brains, it always made sense to me too that an SSRI would help for all the reasons you listed.

    Keep checking in and let us know when you are going to or have taken your last dose. The weekends are usually much slower around here but I, and hopefully others, will try to be here for you while you get ready to induct.

    Last answer (I think)....PM is not an option on this Forum. We all really wish it was but it is what it is. The anonymity of this site helps and to be honest, sometimes it's better to get more than one person's opinion or experience so that you can chew on it and decide what makes sense to you for you.

    Hope there's not a glitch in getting your subs tonight. Assuming you do, I hope that we hear back that tomorrow will be your Day 1.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  21. #21
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I wanted to post to update that yes, about 15minutes ago I received the subs. Got 28x 8mg strips, with an option for 28 more in 2 weeks. I guess he needed to save 2 for himself for every visit. This is a person who understands what direction I am taking and is gonna have to step out of my life when that time comes. It feels good to finally have this plan be officially ready to go. I went down to 8 bags today, surprisingly felt a whole lot like week 2-3 of the detox. In bed, haven't eaten all day, tired, but not necessarily feeling "bad" per se, just like heavily weighted down. My mood was fine, which was good. I guess it does make sense that I am down a substantial amount from the binging done last week, where I would be trying to get "high" and thus do 3-4 at one time and would wind up nauseated and vomiting once or twice before getting truly high from just having so much drug in my system.

    This packaging is really fancy. Glossy plastic wrapping, high quality graphics, all kind of serial numbers and codes on the back. It's funny the packaging is just what amused me the most out of this entire day I just wanted to point that out...


    Anyways, step 1 down. Onto deciding a last dose time. This will take some mental endurance as I'm starting the realize each of the next couple doses could very well be my last ever if what I want to happen will happen. I will have an update for you guys when I decide on a last dose time, but I want it to happen like I said sometime in the next 24-48 hours as I don't even want the mild discomfort of the last 2 days to go to waste so there already seems to be no turning back...
    UncleLeo likes this.

  22. #22
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Randy,

    Oh, and finally, I do not see a private message feature anywhere here. Is that an option? If so, Randy would it be possible to shoot me a PM real fast? Thanks.


    Good Morning!

    Just wanted to let you know I seen your post and Cat was kind enough to answer about the PM question. (Thanks Cat!). Just ask what you need to ask right here and I'll do my best to accomidate you. As Cat mentioned this forum is anonymous and others may benefit from your questions and concerns too. So ask away.

    Glad you received your subs. As you go through your induction then begin the taper process I can estimate quite accurately the number of 8mg subs you may need to complete the taper process. That way you won't need to purchase more than you'll require. I can get it very close. More on that later.

    You are processing nicely. You understand the process completely. One thing I wanted to say was concerning the time after you completely stop your drug of choice and waiting in wd's to induct on the subs. You know you need to hit a score of 26 on the Cows to be SAFE for induction. That's a given. I personally help many others from my meetings in NA and AA with their sub experiences. I help many induct then taper off successfully. In my experience the longer you can go in wd's, the higher you score on the Cows, the less amount of subs it will take to make you completely stable. I've seen many people wait it out and get to a score of 28-30 and really having a difficult time. But once they take a beginning/induction dose of .5mg - 1mg they almost instantly feel 50 - 75% better. Most of these guys are eventually completely stable on around 2-4mg of subs!! If you can wait until you just can't stand it any longer I would expect your final induction dose to fall in that category. Just what I've learned.

    I do have a very busy weekend planned, but I'll do my best to be around and check in on you.

    Randy
    UncleLeo and Lvg nghtmare like this.

  23. #23
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Thanks for the support and for checking in on me this morning.

    What you spoke of is what I have been spending a lot of time thinking about. Mentally preparing for the fact that I know that the best way to ensure you induce on the lowest dose possible is to be as sick as possible. It's kind of a cruel game. The more pain you can endure in the acute WD, the easier the process will be down the road. I see very clearly how being able to induce on a final dose of 2mg saves weeks of time and effort versus say a 4mg dose so getting that induction dose as low as possible seems to be such a key.

    It's so cruel, but it seems to really make sense. If it's true that 2-4mg is all anyone really needs to stabilize (and yes seems to be true), then when someone is taking double or triple that or more such as 4 or 8 or 16mg they are probably, if anything, still INCREASING their tolerance to opioids and building MORE receptors. They don't realize it because the lack of euphoria, but they are probably going BACKWARDS and further away from their goal of completely off if they take large doses of 8mg+. Makes sense I suppose why suboxone horror stories involve months of high dose as they have spent months going backwards and have to reclaim that progress back before they truly start making dents on where they were when they first started high dose subs.

    I appreciate the fact that in your busy weekend you will be still thinking about my case and checking in on me. I will make sure to give you guys a good notice on when I plan the last dose to be. Again, it is still mentally draining to think that I am literally planning for the last time to ever take opiates. I hopefully plan on the last dose to be sometime Sunday, and induction Monday night. That will be the goal for now, but I will make it official with another post.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-11-2017 at 10:23 AM.

  24. #24
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    Yea you said it buddy, wish I would have done like you and studied the ceiling effect and all the stories of getting off of it, maybe Cuz we all are used to taking more to feel better we gladly didn't question the doc's decision to overload us with way more than we needed, don't get me wrong it has saved lots of lives and helping to reduce lots of communities opiate epidemic, but if the doctor's and users would have done what your doing "researching" then maybe alot would be on a simpler road to recovery.
    Thankfully their are sites like this to help counter Balance the misinformed out there

  25. #25
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Don't think of it like that way. I haven't even started yet, and you are on just a couple mg. I'm still a long way away from the progress that you have made. I still haven't even started with the induction. Mentally preparing, but wondering if it's becoming counterproductive and just turning into obsessing and worrying.

  26. #26
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    Well I'll say it like this... there will be people who stumble upon these pages and your story could help alot of them walk into a suboxon clinic with a different point of view maybe save them years by taking the less is more approach not to mention the plausbo effect... so not to put undo stress pressure on your upcoming journey but I'd say your ok stay on your plan to induct Monday night.. I'm not looking at my experience as a negative the fact that 1mg is this strong is the point, to me. no way sould I have been taking as much as i was their was no need.. and the more ppl like you and me and all them on these pages talk about that the more ppl seeing the experiences of those who do it that way the better,, I hope you do stick to it mentally your their so now that you have the plan no need to dissect it any further. While your up and able, take the time to get all the supplies and supplements that your gonna need, and keep posting, being stuck in your own head is easy to do.
    I think if you stick with the plan you'll be ok.
    I'm glad your here you seem like a smart guy,, just don't get in your own way.

  27. #27
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I have a postgraduate degree in, how to say it, the relevant field so to speak. Would appreciate if this wasn't referenced in any other future posts by anyone and just let this be the only mention of it. That being said, nothing you can get from education and lectures is equivalent to actually living through it. I could tell you now, neither myself nor any of my colleagues that would attempt to do this stuff professionally would be as good as the people doing it that are actually living it and know personally through going through the process themselves. That is why doses of 8 to 16mg are given, they just don't know any better and that is what they are taught.

    I read a couple more user's posts that Robert guided through the whole process. It seems he does quite a bit of minor tinkering on days 2-4 to get the induction dose right with an extra bit here and there or less dose here and there. There's definitely an art to it, as robert had to make the call whether the symptoms that were being reported by the person were true WD or mental anxiety, but he seemed to be able to get it right most of the time to figure out the lowest effective dose. I hope that when my time comes, one of the senior members will be around for most of those days to help guide me through it if any questions arise.

  28. #28
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    Hey buddy how you doing this morning?

  29. #29
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I just woke up.

  30. #30
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Wowza, it's amazing how nobody talks about daylight savings time. I just saw one mention of it on the internet today on a news site, but other than that I would have never known. I guess this is just the new world we live in where we rely on the computer and phone clocks to keep track for us so that we don't have to pass the word on to each other.


    Anyways, I just want to say that later tonight I will be making an official post on when my last dose will be. The post might come later than most people here sleep or last check the forums for a day, but it will be definitely sitting there if anyone checks first thing tomorrow morning. I plan on making my last dose around 10am to 2pm Monday. My plan is to spend as much of the uncomfortable time occupy a normal night's sleep that I can. The trick of course is to try to take my last dose as early as possible Monday so that sleep from 11pm to 7pm comes as late in the process as possible, without having to run into the issue of sleep coming so late that I'm too uncomfortable to sleep! Ahh, not sure whether its funny or alarming that normal ppl will have no clue what I am talking about with all this, but users and former users will know exactly what I am talking about and trying to plan to pull off.

    My concern is that if it takes closer to 36 hours as opposed to 24 hours to reach a high COWS score, that would put the timing at around 2am in the night in between Tues and Wed so I'll be alone for the induction.

    Anyways, just wanted to say that Monday will in fact be in the last time I plan on using this stuff, with an official exact time to follow. Would really appreciate the help if Randy or anyone else could be around during the time to induce. If it happens in the middle of the night and I can't make it through the morning, then that's just what it will have to be.

    COWS must be high.
    COWS must be high.
    COWS must be high.

    The strangest thing is.... how much I am almost looking forward to this. For one, I get to find out what my induction dose will be so I will finally know what the path and how long approximately the path to weaning off will be and look like. It's exciting hoping that my requirements might be low like ~2mg, but I do understand that Robert has said the dose itself is not important, just as long as it's done right and you only have to do it once. Another is finally getting rid of all the anxiety from putting this off as long as possible... it's finally time to start this process.

    I also am very much looking forward to the fact that the easier parts of the taper seem to happen at the beginning when on doses of several milligrams. When people say it feels like a miracle that subs completely take the cravings away, and how there is no desire to use, and how they feel "normal" again, and how they say "relax, I understand the anxiety but the subs work, trust me" I always get apprehensive so it will be a giant relief to reach that point of getting that induction dose and finally being on the other side of the induction and starting the path towards weaning and recovery.

    So, finally, one last post tonight when I am ready with a final time, and then sometime Tuesday hopefully the induction.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-12-2017 at 04:38 PM.

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