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Made a decision out of fear, now when do I start my subs?
  1. #1
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Default Made a decision out of fear, now when do I start my subs?

    Hello friends. I stated in my other threads that I flushed my remaining oxys and percs, which i did. Unfortuantely, I was cleaning out my car today and I found four 10/325 percocets I "hid" from a couple weeks ago in case I ran out early and needed them. This was before my decision to drop all the bad pills and go on suboxone. At this point, I was in mild withdrawal and ready to start my subxone treatment at around this time. In fear of when I was ready for the suboxone, I foolishly took the perocets and am feeling "good" from them as I type this. Before I got on here, I went searching EVERYONE in my house to ensure I didnt leave myself anymore bad pills. I searched hard and found none. I am hoping to get a good nights sleep after writing this and by the AM, be at the beginning stages of withdrawal again. Then, I will wait out the day until I feel strong withdrawal affects, and finally start my suboxone treatment. I feel so ashamed and actually cried at my weakness.

    My question is, when should I take my first suboxone dose knowing I cant make this mistake again. I was thinking this time tomorrow night, or maybe even tough it out until Sunday morning, which will put me at 36 hours from my last dose.

    I am so sorry I let myself and you guys down. I was weak. I admit it. I know for sure I cant make the same mistake again, as I have no more bad pills. I plan on going by Daves plan to the T. I just dont want to jump on the wagon too soon, as Ive read PW/D are hell on earth. Please forgive me guys and let me know where to go from here!

    David

    P.S. I was given and still have 10 8mg/2mg suboxone films.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 11-14-2014 at 11:04 PM.

  2. #2
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi there
    There is the cows schedule that you should definitely follow.
    You don't want to start to early.
    Have you heard of that and what guide are you using to induce?
    I am sure other people will come along to help.
    many people have used the Cows guide and then were able to induce at a low dose and then taper relatively easy..
    Is your goal to taper off or stay awhile?
    Robert's taper plan on this board has induction and then taper..
    You can check this out..
    I will check back later
    Iluv2

  3. #3
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    Hello friends. I stated in my other threads that I flushed my remaining oxys and percs, which i did. Unfortuantely, I was cleaning out my car today and I found four 10/325 percocets I "hid" from a couple weeks ago in case I ran out early and needed them. This was before my decision to drop all the bad pills and go on suboxone. At this point, I was in mild withdrawal and ready to start my subxone treatment at around this time. In fear of when I was ready for the suboxone, I foolishly took the perocets and am feeling "good" from them as I type this. Before I got on here, I went searching EVERYONE in my house to ensure I didnt leave myself anymore bad pills. I searched hard and found none. I am hoping to get a good nights sleep after writing this and by the AM, be at the beginning stages of withdrawal again. Then, I will wait out the day until I feel strong withdrawal affects, and finally start my suboxone treatment. I feel so ashamed and actually cried at my weakness.

    My question is, when should I take my first suboxone dose knowing I cant make this mistake again. I was thinking this time tomorrow night, or maybe even tough it out until Sunday morning, which will put me at 36 hours from my last dose.

    I am so sorry I let myself and you guys down. I was weak. I admit it. I know for sure I cant make the same mistake again, as I have no more bad pills. I plan on going by Daves plan to the T. I just dont want to jump on the wagon too soon, as Ive read PW/D are hell on earth. Please forgive me guys and let me know where to go from here!

    David

    P.S. I was given and still have 10 8mg/2mg suboxone films.
    Dave you have not let any of us down by your actions. You are not the first person that has made a mistake nor will you be the last. You just have delayed you sub induction by a day. What time did you do the percs and was the 40 mg you did all that you did today? The longer you can wait the better but if that is all you took today then 24 hours should be enough time to induct. I would still induct at 2 mg max and then wait an hour and see how you feel and if more is needed take .5 an hour until you good. Best luck to you and I will talk to you later.

    Alex
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  4. #4
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Yes. Just the 40mg at 10pm. I was thinking I should just wait until Sunday around 12 pm....over 36 hours. Now, another followup question..I have a script for xanax. Can I take xanax along with my multivitamin and lots of water or will that cause Precipitated withdrawal after 36 hours just like taking an opiate would? I can get through the first 36 hours fine as long as I have my b vitamins and xanax. The worst symptoms for me during withdrawal is the anxiety and RLS. Xanax actually helps with both. I just want to get through those 36 houts before my first dose of subs. If I have to do without the xanax, it will be tough and I doubt I will get any sleep. I just want to do what is best so that the suboxone helps instead of hinders. I am mentally prepared for what is in store for the next 36 hours.

  5. #5
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    Yes. Just the 40mg at 10pm. I was thinking I should just wait until Sunday around 12 pm....over 36 hours. Now, another followup question..I have a script for xanax. Can I take xanax along with my multivitamin and lots of water or will that cause Precipitated withdrawal after 36 hours just like taking an opiate would? I can get through the first 36 hours fine as long as I have my b vitamins and xanax. The worst symptoms for me during withdrawal is the anxiety and RLS. Xanax actually helps with both. I just want to get through those 36 houts before my first dose of subs. If I have to do without the xanax, it will be tough and I doubt I will get any sleep. I just want to do what is best so that the suboxone helps instead of hinders. I am mentally prepared for what is in store for the next 36 hours.
    Hey there. It's highly recommended that you score a 26 on the COWS worksheet before taking your first Sub dose. The link to both the COWS chart and Roberts induction/taper plan were posted in your other threads by Randy and Rose, I believe. Follow the induction plan closely. Like Alex said, it's probably ok to start with 2mg, but then add only .5mg every 60-90 min until you feel stable (little to no WD symptoms).

    Xanax is not recommended while waiting to induct because it fudges your WD score. You need to be able to accurately score yourself without any comfort meds. I didn't use any meds (except for Melatonin) while waiting to induct. Also, most doctors won't prescribe Sub and Xanax together because they're both CNS depressants.

    If you follow Robert's induction plan, you will be just fine. Also, stick to one thread so we can easily reply to you and keep track of your posts. Makes it easier

    All the best,
    Kat

  6. #6
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    Yes. Just the 40mg at 10pm. I was thinking I should just wait until Sunday around 12 pm....over 36 hours. Now, another followup question..I have a script for xanax. Can I take xanax along with my multivitamin and lots of water or will that cause Precipitated withdrawal after 36 hours just like taking an opiate would? I can get through the first 36 hours fine as long as I have my b vitamins and xanax. The worst symptoms for me during withdrawal is the anxiety and RLS. Xanax actually helps with both. I just want to get through those 36 houts before my first dose of subs. If I have to do without the xanax, it will be tough and I doubt I will get any sleep. I just want to do what is best so that the suboxone helps instead of hinders. I am mentally prepared for what is in store for the next 36 hours.
    Dave it is always suggested not to take any comfort meds like Xanax before you induct on subs. Also a lot of sub Drs will not prescribe a patient subs if they are on benzos. Truthfully if you are going to tough it out until Sunday I am sure you will be in full WD from not using any opiates for 36 hours so I do not know if it would be harmful to take Xanax. I just know it is advised not to use benzos before inducting on subs so I can not advise you that it all right to take them. I am sure this is not the type of reply you were looking for. Maybe someone who has been prescribed benzos when they inducted on subs can give you a different answer but that's the best way I can answer your question.

    Alex

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    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    I see where Kath was answering your question as I was posting and she explained it better then I did.

    Alex

  8. #8
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    I apologize for being sporadic in my posting. I will stick to this thread from now on. I will be posting here a lot tommorrow to let yall know how I am doing. I will avoid the xanax. Is the vitamin supplement ok?

  9. #9
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    I apologize for being sporadic in my posting. I will stick to this thread from now on. I will be posting here a lot tommorrow to let yall know how I am doing. I will avoid the xanax. Is the vitamin supplement ok?
    Yeah, any vitamin is fine. Drink lots of water, too. Do whatever you need to distract yourself from the WD period and waiting. I know it sucks, but it will be over soon and you'll get to feeling better once you start on the Sub.

    We'll be here to help you all throughout your induction and taper!

    Kat
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  10. #10
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    dave I see where you said you have a script for Xanax and was wondering how much you take daily if you indeed take it every day. If so I know one can not suddenly just stop taking Xanax if you have been on it for very long. I would not attempt to stop taking Xanax suddenly while you try to taper off of subs as that could really cause you problems depending on your daily dose of Xanax. Hope that you have not been on daily benzos for much of a period of time and if not try to use the benzos sparingly as you do not want to open another can of worms there.

    Alex
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  11. #11
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexnt View Post
    dave I see where you said you have a script for Xanax and was wondering how much you take daily if you indeed take it every day. If so I know one can not suddenly just stop taking Xanax if you have been on it for very long. I would not attempt to stop taking Xanax suddenly while you try to taper off of subs as that could really cause you problems depending on your daily dose of Xanax. Hope that you have not been on daily benzos for much of a period of time and if not try to use the benzos sparingly as you do not want to open another can of worms there.

    Alex
    I agree with Alex. I didn't realize you've been taking Xanax regularly. Did I miss that in your post? If you have been taking it daily for any length of time, you can't just stop without having some nasty WD symptoms, including risk of seizure (which is obviously very serious). How long have you been taking Xanax and how much per day?

    Kat

  12. #12
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Ive never had a problem with the xanax. I take it daily yes, but only when I start to feel a bout of anxiety. This said anxiety is very easy for me to spot...I get a feeling in my chest that feels like an expanding balloon and I have to constantly take really deep breaths for about 30 seconds of relief. When I get those symptoms, I take a xanax and within an hour those symptoms subside. When I am in withdrawal, those same symptoms magnify, especially when I first wake up in the morning. Thats why I ask if it would be ok to take small doses of xanax while I wait for my withdrawal, as in the early stages of mu withdrawals, said anxiety is the worst and most unbearable of all the symtoms. Luckily, with B vitamins and a light jog (I feel blessed I have the will power to even run in that condition) the other symptoms are bearable. So, like I said, the anxiety is the worst of it, so I am hoping small doses of xanax is ok while I wait to take my first dose of suboxone.

  13. #13
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    If you've been taking xanax for any length of time, it could be dangerous to suddenly stop. I would council to take your usual dose and no more than that: What is your usual dose? You do not want benzo w/d on top of opiate w/d. from suddenly cutting your xanax too far down. The xanax will not directly cause PWD. Opiates and benzos are two different beasts. The xanax covers up some of the opiate w/d symptoms and makes it difficult to judge where you are as far as intensity of w/d.

    Iloerose
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  14. #14
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Well, as it turns out, waiting 24 hours was long enough. I took ya'lls advice about just taking my regular dose of xanax and just literally sat around waiting for withdrawals to start. They were slighly present all day, and I was a little befuddled. Sorta happy I was feeling ok, but still curious as to why no symptoms. As day turned to night, and the xanax wore off, I realized, THATS WHY. The xanax was masking a lot of the symptoms. I started to really feel the withdrawal. So, I decided to try 2mg of suboxone. If felt like you all said, nothing working. Then I started to worry I sent myself into PW. I feel asleep and just woke up feeling just fine. Still a little iffy, so I I took just a little more as write this. I am so relieved I waited as long as I did. I think I am doing this just right. Thank you all for everything!I will continue to post on progress.

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    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Good Job! So far, so good. Keep track of the mg. of the pieces that you take so you know exactly what mg. you are going to need to be at your effective dose. You should stabilize at a specific dose today. PWD would have hit almost immediately. So you're good there. Sounds like you have a good start!

    Peace,

    Iloerose

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    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Looks like 4mg is my effective dose. I feel just fine. Not, high, but normal. And its such a relief. I go to my doctor tomorrow for the good news. Probably be taking a urine test just take make sure I am really off the oxys. I am glad to be off those and hopefully, I wont be on the suboxone long either. How long do you normally have to be on them?

  17. #17
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    Looks like 4mg is my effective dose. I feel just fine. Not, high, but normal. And its such a relief. I go to my doctor tomorrow for the good news. Probably be taking a urine test just take make sure I am really off the oxys. I am glad to be off those and hopefully, I wont be on the suboxone long either. How long do you normally have to be on them?
    Hey there. I'm really glad to see that you stabilized at 4mg - that's great! As far as "how long" it's necessary to be on Sub: the less time, the better. However, I'd be willing to bet that your doctor will say that you need to be on it for "at least a year or so". Don't listen to that nonsense. There's absolutely no reason to be on Sub long-term. The longer a person takes Sub, the harder it is to taper off. I speak from personal experience.

    Doctors are usually only interested in one thing: keeping you on Sub indefinitely so they can reap the profits. It's obscene. If you are the exception and have found an honest Sub doctor, that's awesome. But I doubt that's the case. When you go in tomorrow, ask how long he/she thinks you need to be on Sub and when you should taper off. If you get the feeling that your doc isn't interested in helping you taper off, just go along with it. Get your script and get outta there. A lot of docs will get angry if you tell them you want to taper off. We'll help you with your taper from here on out.

    So, I assume you've read Robert's taper plan? The link was provided on one of your other threads. FYI: the taper plan is shown on the very first thread here on the Suboxone Treatment board; titled "Sub Therapy". The plan works great; I'm proof of that. Basically, the plan calls for a reduction of 25% at a time every 4-5 days. The most crucial part of a successful taper is being stable before any drop. Stable means having little to no WD symptoms. Since you just started yesterday, I'd give yourself at least 3 more days at 4mg before you begin your taper. Ask all the questions you need to.

    The good thing is, once you have enough Sub to complete your taper, you don't ever have to go back to see your doctor.

    I'll check back soon...
    Kat
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  18. #18
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Well, I know my doctor isn't like that because my pain doctor IS my suboxone doctor. So, he understands the need for me to get off quick EVERYTHING. And, I was worried about taking the xanax and you were right, it masked the serious w/d symptoms, so I didnt know I was in w/d until I woke up from a nap and felt like hell. I knew it was time to dose....I started to worry an hour in, because I started to feel worse. Thought I induced PW. So, I managed to fall asleep again. I woke up at 1am because I had to pee and low and behold, no W/D at all. I will say the sleep was melatonin induced, but I think getting as much sleep while waiting to fall into w/ds is crucial. Then falling asleep after you dose is also crucial. That way, when you wake up, its isnt because of W/Ds, but because you have to use the bathroom or something. And waking up feeling good is such a relief!

  19. #19
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    Well, I know my doctor isn't like that because my pain doctor IS my suboxone doctor. So, he understands the need for me to get off quick EVERYTHING. And, I was worried about taking the xanax and you were right, it masked the serious w/d symptoms, so I didnt know I was in w/d until I woke up from a nap and felt like hell. I knew it was time to dose....I started to worry an hour in, because I started to feel worse. Thought I induced PW. So, I managed to fall asleep again. I woke up at 1am because I had to pee and low and behold, no W/D at all. I will say the sleep was melatonin induced, but I think getting as much sleep while waiting to fall into w/ds is crucial. Then falling asleep after you dose is also crucial. That way, when you wake up, its isnt because of W/Ds, but because you have to use the bathroom or something. And waking up feeling good is such a relief!
    That's good. Consider yourself lucky. Most of us here got stuck with dishonest, greedy Sub doctors...

    Kat

  20. #20
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Glad you are stable on the 4mg. Good that you are seeing your doctor tomorrow.

    I am going to say one thing about the xanax: it doesn't matter that you have no "problem" with the xanax, but if you have been taking xanax (and you never did say how much you were taking daily) everyday over a sustained period of time, you can go into w/d rather quickly because of the short half-life of xanax: 6-8 hours. If you think that opiate w/d can be bad, benzo w/d can be deadly. Be careful with the xanax. Just sayin'.
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  21. #21
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    Looks like 4mg is my effective dose. I feel just fine. Not, high, but normal. And its such a relief. I go to my doctor tomorrow for the good news. Probably be taking a urine test just take make sure I am really off the oxys. I am glad to be off those and hopefully, I wont be on the suboxone long either. How long do you normally have to be on them?
    Good to read your induction went ok and that 4mg is holding you. There is a thread here in the subs forum that you might want to look over. It is by a member whos name here is Lincolnecho and the thread is my plan to kick vicodin habit with suboxone. He inducted at 2mg which is lower then you but you should be at near that dose pretty soon. It shows a good taper using Robert 325 taper plan. I bumped it up so its near the top of the page here in the sub forum. Keep on posting how your taper is going and I will talk to you later

    Alex
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  22. #22
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    I have to say, it is day, two of being on suboxone and for some reason, I took the 4mg at around 6pm. I felt ok and then around 9:30 pm, I fell asleep. Around 3 am, I woke up feeling horrible, like bad withdrawals. Did I do something wrong? So, I took another 4mg at 3 am after a little waiting, then finally fell back asleep. I woke up this morning feeling fantastic. Not high fantastic, but I can take on the world fantastic. I also drank half a bottle of Powerade with Berroca mixed in and of course my B vitamin. But I was feeling good before that. I haven't taken another dose because I feel fine right now. Should I take another dose anyways, even if I am feeling ok or wait until I start to not feel ok? Perhaps this is covered somewhere else and if it is, I apologize for being redundant.

    So, I am trying to link the two events. Is it possible that I took the 4mg at 6pm last night, woke up at 3am feeling bad and took another 4mg, and because the half life is so long, I now have 8mg in me, which is why I feel best? I am just so confused.

    And another thing, when ya'll say 4mg, do you mean 4mg a DAY or PER DOSE. My instructions say 1/2 to 1 strip every 8 hours. So when I say I am taking 4mg, I mean a dose, and I have dose on the following schedule:

    Saturday Night 10pm(ish)2mg
    Sunday Morning 1-2am(ish) 2mg
    Sunday Morning 10am(ish) 4mg
    Sunday Night 6pm 4mg
    Monday Morning 3am(ish) 4mg

    I have a feeling maybe I am doing this wrong, so input would be awesome! Thanks guys!

  23. #23
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    I have to say, it is day, two of being on suboxone and for some reason, I took the 4mg at around 6pm. I felt ok and then around 9:30 pm, I fell asleep. Around 3 am, I woke up feeling horrible, like bad withdrawals. Did I do something wrong? So, I took another 4mg at 3 am after a little waiting, then finally fell back asleep. I woke up this morning feeling fantastic. Not high fantastic, but I can take on the world fantastic. I also drank half a bottle of Powerade with Berroca mixed in and of course my B vitamin. But I was feeling good before that. I haven't taken another dose because I feel fine right now. Should I take another dose anyways, even if I am feeling ok or wait until I start to not feel ok? Perhaps this is covered somewhere else and if it is, I apologize for being redundant.

    So, I am trying to link the two events. Is it possible that I took the 4mg at 6pm last night, woke up at 3am feeling bad and took another 4mg, and because the half life is so long, I now have 8mg in me, which is why I feel best? I am just so confused.

    And another thing, when ya'll say 4mg, do you mean 4mg a DAY or PER DOSE. My instructions say 1/2 to 1 strip every 8 hours. So when I say I am taking 4mg, I mean a dose, and I have dose on the following schedule:

    Saturday Night 10pm(ish)2mg
    Sunday Morning 1-2am(ish) 2mg
    Sunday Morning 10am(ish) 4mg
    Sunday Night 6pm 4mg
    Monday Morning 3am(ish) 4mg

    I have a feeling maybe I am doing this wrong, so input would be awesome! Thanks guys!
    So you actually took 8mg on Sunday. When we talk about dosing, we mean your total DAILY dose. I thought you were taking 4mg per DAY. When a person uses Robert's induction/taper plan, they don't follow their doctor's dosing instructions because it contradicts the induction process. Most docs over-prescribe. (I'm not knocking your doctor; most docs don't know any better.) With Sub, less is more. Usually, people with rx pain pill addictions don't need 8mg to start. But since you've already started there, you'll have to taper from there.

    When you woke up early this morning and took another 4mg, what were your symptoms?

    Kat

  24. #24
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    Oh, so I did do it wrong. Yeah, I sort of went by the doctors instructions. He said 8mg every 8 hours. I did half that.

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    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    What we need to do is to get you stable at a starting dose. As kat suggested, you started at 8mg. total so you most likely need to taper from 8mg. daily. The most important thing is to be stable and not switching doses at this point. You need to take your sub at the same time every day. Did you take a dose of 4mg. around 6 pm. when you took your dose yesterday?
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    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Dave was wondering if you have been taking 8 mg a day since Monday and how you are doing now. If you have you should be getting stable at that dose by now and be about ready to begin to start tapering. Hope all is going well and if you get time let us know how it is going.

    Alex
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  27. #27
    TimetoQuit323 is offline New Member
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    I am now taking 8mg a day, once every day at 8am every day. I am doing fine as of now and feeling normal is an awesome feeling. I am ready to start tapering, as I believe I am at the point where the withdrawals from the Percs and Oxys is completely out of my system. I have another appointment on the 1st with my doctor to discuss this and let him know from that day, I will be tapering from 8mg a day until I dont need them anymore. I am going take 8mg at 8am everyday still until the 1st, and then start the taper.

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    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimetoQuit323 View Post
    I am now taking 8mg a day, once every day at 8am every day. I am doing fine as of now and feeling normal is an awesome feeling. I am ready to start tapering, as I believe I am at the point where the withdrawals from the Percs and Oxys is completely out of my system. I have another appointment on the 1st with my doctor to discuss this and let him know from that day, I will be tapering from 8mg a day until I dont need them anymore. I am going take 8mg at 8am everyday still until the 1st, and then start the taper.
    Dave if you are stable at 8 mg now then the sooner you start your taper the better. The less amount of times you spend on subs the better as the less amount spent on it the easier it will be on you when it is finally time to jump off. You could drop to 6 mg starting tomorrow and actually be down to 4.5 when you do see your doctor on the 1st. I know you posted on an earlier post about how you trusted your doctor and he knows how you need to get off everything quick. By no means am I suggesting here that you should not listen to your doctor or anything like that but I am just saying this to give you a warning which may be not even be necessary. An awful lot of doctors that prescribe subs do not really understand subs like they should. You mentioned that your doctor said take 8 mg every 8 hours. So that means he was either instructing you to take either 16 or 24 mg a day. In either case that would be way overkill as nobody needs anything even close to that. Going by this I would have to believe you doctor does not understand the strength of subs and probably will not know how to instruct you to do a taper like the taper plan on here that thousands have used over the years to detox off of opiates. Subs are a great tool to use to help one get off of opiates if used correctly. There is a saying about subs that less is best. When I first heard that it did not make any sense to me but I found out that it is completely true. Best wishes to you and I will talk to you later.

    Alex
    Iwantoff2013 likes this.

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