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My journal from methadone to subutex to hopefully clean. I need HELP!!!
  1. #1
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Default My journal from methadone to subutex to hopefully clean. I need HELP!!!

    I started another thread yesterday but I feel that this will be a better title/resource for others in the future.

    First off I felt so alone until I found this forum. Any input from senior / veteran members helps myself and hopefully many other people in the future.

    Give you the rundown on my story. 36 year old male on methadone for approx 5 embarrassing years after many many years of substance abuse (primarily opiates) Started at 120mg and tapered to 26mg. Stabilized on 26 mg for over a year and got tired of the clinic politics. Found a sub doc that has little knowledge about methadone. He would only induct me inpatient but whatever. The induction went as smooth as it could. I will transfer my daily journal that I kept prior and add each day to share my experience with others.

    My objective is to detox from methadone using subutex. Furthermore tapering from the subutex using the help from forum members and the Robert taper in the fastest healthiest way possible.

    I did a quite a bit of research on the induction process and have a strong medical background.


    Days prior / preparation: found a sub doc that to write the script but would only do it if I made the change inpatient. He did not know the first thing about methadone. I figured this due to him not even asking how many milligrams I was on and the length of time I had been on it. Just to share with others it goes a lot smoother if you are stabilized on a methadone dose under 30mg. Some people try to rush it but that increases the odds of a rough induction.

    Day 1: Sunday morning last dose of methadone 26mg. Sleep was 6 hours

    Day 2: Monday no methadone kept myself busy...... no physical withdrawals just more mental more than anything. Monday night checked into detox to complete the induction. Long intake process and slight agitation. Sleep was 4 hours.

    Day 3: Tuesday inpatient no methadone. Still no physical withdrawals still a mental battle. The detox facility provided zyflexa muscle relaxers 4x per day , ambien for sleep and Tylenol as needed. Sleep with ambien 2 hours.

    Day 4 : Wednesday very minor physical withdrawals in the morning but progressively getting worse. It is imperative that you score yourself using the COWS scale prior to induction. Everybody is different but I will share the symptoms I was experiencing. Goose bumps consistently throughout the day , anxiety basically waiting to get sick, irregular temperature body hot or cold, minor runny nose, and restlessness. The nurses there attempted to induct me in the morning but I refused knowing myself and the fact my withdrawals were very minor at the time. Wednesday night no sleep extreme restlessness , hot / cold flashes, extreme anxiety , no sleep , runny nose and negative thought process. I kept pushing through to ensure a successful induction to be sure my receptors were methadone free. Again nurses attempting to induct me. I refused.

    Day 5: Thursday morning 4am anxiety , negative thought process , hot , cold , goose bumps , agitation, runny nose , slight stomach ache , head ache , but NOTHING like complete withdrawal. Don't be afraid it is all tolerable. At this point I knew I was on the safe side to be inducted. I asked the nurse to complete the COWS scale and I was well above a 26. Just to be on the safe side I waited another couple of hours until the induction. The key is you don't have to push yourself to the point of insanity but you have to have the methadone metabolized out of your system OR ELSE...... full blown hell withdrawals with little relief. The best way to ensure this is to be under 30mg of methadone and stabilize. Don't try to go from high levels of methadone to 20-30mg in a week and expect a smooth induction. It can be done but you will increase your risk of a rough induction. Everybody's metabolism is different so if you are under 30 mg and you follow the COWS scale the odds are usually on your side. That being said I asked for 2 mg of subutex crossed my fingers and went and laid down. My body got extremely hot in minutes and I thought I was going to go into withdrawals. Well the opposite happened. The hot turned into a calming feeling and I knew I was in the clear. I asked for the second 2 mg and within an hour I was completely symptom free and energetic. The mistake I made is that I followed the doctors order which was 4 mg 4x per day. It was way to much The more I took throughout the day the worse I felt mentally. I refused the 4th dose and discharged that day to home. When I got home I found this forum and it has been a godsend. Sleep 6 hours

    Day 6: Friday woke up feeling depressed and unmotivated. I took 4 mg of subutex and magically symptom free other than loose stool. Other than that good mood and energy. Friday afternoon approx 2:45 feeling a lot of anxiety and negative thought process. I took another 4 mg and symptom free. Been on the forum most of the day reading more and hoping for advice from others. I have had some great guidance here even on my first post. I will not be titrating up at all as I want to stabilize and taper. I am at 8 mg which from what I'm reading is high but I hope to be at 6 mg on Sunday. I will be following guidance from other successful members and journaling my daily progress. Thanks again for everybody's support and any advice will be greatly appreciated.
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  2. #2
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Please stick to one thread
    It gets confusing!

    I am glad you are feeling good.
    Bette

    This thread is the thread I would stick too.
    You will help many others.

    Seems like lately many people doing the switch'
    Only a few are successful!

    Count yourself as blessed!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 08:49 PM.

  3. #3
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Good work waiting, what, 4 days off methadone before induction? Most precipitated WD stories.. actually almost all now that I think about it... come from makign the switch from methadone to subs, as opposed to short acting opiates to subs. With the methadone, RObert used to say it was 3 days period no exceptions. Most ppl probably don't wait 3 days and don't realize how long methadone lasts so they take it after 24-48 hours and throw themselves into PWD. Whereas with regular 6hr opiates like H and oxycodone, usually 24 hours is fine but always use the COWS to be sure.


    Also, perhaps the reason they wanted to induce you and you wanted to wait for fullblown WD symptoms is that methadone is long acting, so the WD from that are mild but over weeks as opposed to short acting opiates where they are intense and just a couple days. So maybe you were waiting around for the intense WD's that you were used to with short acting opiates not realizing that the WD process from methadone would not be exactly the same as that. With methadone, that stuff slowly falls off your receptors so your receptors aren't firing enough but it's very slow. Whereas with short acting opiates all your receptors are empty after just 6-18 hours so your body is in total freakout mode immediately versus the slow gradual freakout with methadone.

    Good job waiting 4 days to induce though. That is good. I am also happy you felt good and normal just 1 day after starting suboxone. I bet the taper down to lower doses of methadone lowered your brain's opiate requirements so the transition to partial agonist opiate like suboxone was very easy. I quickly went off high amounts of short acting opiate to suboxone, so my first 4-5 days on subs was very lethargic and blah. Probably because even with all my receptors filled with suboxone, those receptors were only firing at 50% so 100% occupancy but 50% activity wasn't enough as my brain was probably used to 80-90% occupancy but firing at 100% with full short acting opiates.

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    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Got it........I just posted my other thread that I will be maintaining this one on a daily basis thanks again for your kind words.
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  5. #5
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for info this place is great. I look forward to the pathway to recovery together. As addicts we all have great knowledge to add. In turn we help ourselves as well as others. It sounds like you are a wealth of knowledge. The day I know everything is the day I become stupid
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    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Day 7: feeling stable woke up a little shakey but still maintained 6 hours of sleep. Good mood , no depression , and good energy throughout the day. Today I remained at 8mg 4 mg at 6:30am and 4 mg at 2:30pm. Being day 4 consistent at 8 mg i feel that I am leveled out enough for a taper. I have round 8 mg subutex pills and a pill cutter. I want to go to 6 mg tomorrow but I am having a hard enough time cutting these pills in half. My question is according to the Robert taper I am ready to go to 6mg as 8 was high in the first place. I just wanted to level out due to taking methadone rather than shorter half lived opiates. I am ready both physically and mentally. I just need some guidance on how to make these 8 mg pills into smaller doses without making a mess out them. Like I said I do have a pill cutter but they tend to crumble even cutting them on the scoring. My plans tomorrow are to continue my split dose. My question is do I need to make 3 mg doses Or will it be ok to take the 4 mg half pill in the morning and a 2 mg quarter pill in the afternoon. Any help on achieving this accurately will be greatly appreciated. I want to follow the Robert taper precisely I know I can cut them in halves , quarters etc..... but I need all the guidance possible. For those reading this if I can do it you can to!! So far very minimal discomfort and a huge weight lifted off mentally. Having the methadone clinic out of your life is a great thing.

  7. #7
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey mrcardoc
    Try crushing the pills once the doses get too small to cut accurately. Use back of a spoon. Then, put powder in a pile and separate into as many smaller piles as meet your needs. An 8 mg pill will give 8 (1) mg doses, which can then be further reduced. Put cut up doses in small pkg and label amount. It gets confusing without labels!
    I used films and had all these tiny pieces! Had to keep them separated! Lol
    It was worth it!!
    Hope that helps!
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  8. #8
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the response. Doing it using small piles makes sense but will it make a difference if I take a half pill 4mg in the am and a quarter pill 2mg in the pm. This will only be for a few days while I am at 6 mg per day.
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  9. #9
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrcardoc View Post
    Thank you for the response. Doing it using small piles makes sense but will it make a difference if I take a half pill 4mg in the am and a quarter pill 2mg in the pm. This will only be for a few days while I am at 6 mg per day.
    It's best to keep consistent levels so if you dose twice a day, split the dose evenly. In this case, 3mg in the morning and 3mg 8-10 hrs later. Cut or crush the 8mg pill and divide into 4 piles. Each pile/piece will be 2mg. Take one of those piles and then just take another pile and cut that in half. That second pile will be 2 doses of 1mg so keep that remaining 1mg dose separate and when you dose in the afternoon, take one of the 2mg piles/pieces and that 1mg pile/piece.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  10. #10
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the advice Should i stay at 8 mg today because I took the half pill 4mg at 6:00am planning on taking a quarter pill 2 mg at 2:00. That would drop me to 6 mg today. But if equal dosing is important I've exceeded the 3mg this morning. I just want to follow this taper plan and not mess anything up. I have been consistent with times and mg since my discharge from inpatient. So the question is should I take the quarter or wait until tomorrow so I can achieve two 3mg split dose.

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    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Day 8: woke up completely fine 6 hours of sleep. totally stable on 8mg and looking forward to my taper. Good energy and sense of well being. Just trying to figure out the best way to accomplish two 3mg doses out of my 8 mg pills without making a mess. I was planning on taking a total of 6 mg today but I don't know if I should or should not due to me taking half a pill 4mg at 6:00 am and planning on taking a quarter pill 2mg at 2:00 pm. But seeing split doses need to be precise I do not know if I should hold off until tomorrow to maintain consistency. Open to any suggestions???? Today I have acquired more tools to prepare the doses equally to accurately achieve smaller doses.
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  12. #12
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I am a pro at crushing pills.. lol.

    Take some very firm paper like regular printer paper.

    Fold it in half like a rectangle shape, but don't use the whole sheet of paper otherwise it'll be too thick. Make sure the paper is only like 2 or 3 layers thick folded.

    Fold the rectable in half to create a crease. Stick pill in crease, hold your fingers down so the crease is closed, and crush the pill up with like the side of a coaster, roll it over and the pill every which way until it is completely crushed into a fine powder with no chunks. Doing it this way prevents chunks from flying off when you crush it.


    When you have it folfded into a fine powder, distribute it into piles of one fourths and there you go.


    Crisp dollar bills are work. Fold it in half length wise, and then length wise again to make the paper thick enough so that you don't break the paper when you apply pressure with a coster or whatever you use.

  13. #13
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Mrcardoc
    Try to dose at the same times daily. Also, don't dose too close to bedtime. You should be able to go 8-10 hours between morning dose and later dose. Familiarize yourself w Robert325 's taper plan--it's the first post on this forum. I read it til i could quote it. He's cleared a path; no need to make a new one!
    This taper works. It did for me and thousands of others. Why not you too? Lol
    Good job deciding to save ur own life! You can do this!
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  14. #14
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    You are doing great!

    Yes the pill crusher cutter thing can be a little tricky
    But this is a great place for some expert advice!

    We definitely know pills! Lol

    Aren't you just amazed that you are off of methadone?

    It took about a month for me to really get that !

    I had tried so many wYs to get off of it!

    I got mine from pain management the last couple of years..

    Before that a clinic.

    The clinics out here are really changing ..
    Getting very srtrict..

    One of my best friends just induced to sub on her own after 15 years on methadone.

    Now she is going to a private sub dr!

    She too feels better than ever
    And has gotten more stuff done this month on sub than she
    Did the last 5-8 years on methadone!

    Most people myself included. Felt normal!
    Very much like I feel today!

    I will be interested to serif you too feel better when you get to 2 mg or less?

    But don't rush it..

    It is a process!

    You will be there before you know it!
    This place and process is pretty amazing!

    Take care!
    Bette

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    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the support. My addict mind had a lot of trouble taking 3mg this morning but so far so good. This will be my first day on a total of 6mg. Trying to guesstimate 3mg was also in my mind. But it if it wasn't for the support here I would have never of known to try. This is day 8 methadone free and I wasn't sure about how long to be stable at 8mg before taper. Is this a good time to reduce??? Because I know methadone is a different beast rather than shorter acting opiates. Just curious on how long to stabilize off of methadone before taper. I know everyone is different but I am interested in other people's scenarios.

  16. #16
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    IF you are 8 days out from methadone, it is safe to start thinking that what how you are currently feeling is NOT methadone related. 8 days is a very good long time.


    Also, based on just anecdotal evidence, most ppl have zero problems tapering down to at least 2mg. A lot don't even feel it. Probably because most ppl don't need 6-8 mg doses, and probably not you either, so its cake tapering down to 2mg. As long as you feel normal and good and have been at a dose for 3-4 days I think it's OK to go ahead and taper. More personalized care probably needed once you go below 2mg, but when you are still high above that, probably OK to start tapering as long asw your body is telling you that you are feeling fine on the current dose.

  17. #17
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the support. I was just getting ready to take my second dose today. You helped sway my addict mind into sticking with the second 3 mg. You probably already know my mind is trying to rationalize going back to 8 mg per day. Thank you for helping me taper down and not up.

  18. #18
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Day 9: 9 days off methadone and 5 days on subutex. First day taper to 6mg. Sleep was 6 hours. Still fighting my addict brain trying to rationalize not tapering. Pulled it together as I have no cravings for ANY drugs and want to be free. So first dose 3 mg dose at 6:00 am and 2cnd 3mg dose at 2:15 thanks to Ming , lluv , and dsh at the very last minute. I was fighting/ trying to rationalize with my brain remaining at 8 mg. I have to tell you that the few people that have been responding to my thread has given me the support to do this. So those that are following my thread every response helps me sooooo much. I think I have the crushing and dividing doses correctly but in my brain I'm thinking every little spot or spec of residue is going to throw it off. I don't know how accurate it needs to be but you all know how our addict brains think. I hope I am getting these doses close enough...... anyways I feel fine just the anxiety from the taper but normal energy and stable mood. Just want to thank everyone helping me through this process.
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  19. #19
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Methadone conversion to other opiates is apparently a huge gray area and some online conversion calculators won't even spit out a result for methadone saying it's highly variable.

    The ones that do give a methadone to oxycodone say oxycodone is slightly stronger, maybe 1.2 of methadone equals 1 of oxycodone.

    If that is true, your 26mg methadone requirement is very good and a small amount. At most, call it 50mg oxycodone a day perhaps.

    I would say you are definitely getting enough sub, the next 1-2 taper steps should be cake which is a plus. Keep going.

  20. #20
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Mrcardoc
    You're doing great! It's impossible to be 100% accurate cutting these things up so don't sweat it! Just make sure u put the separated amounts into something labeled!
    You transferred to sub from the perfect dose of methadone. Good and low. So, after 4 days on 6 mg, consider dropping 25% to 4.5 mg, which u can take in two 2.25mg doses or take 2.5mg in morning and 2 mg 8-10 hours later. You can do this! Drink plenty of water!

  21. #21
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the support. I am moving forward slowly but surely. Taking it day by day and doing well. All the advice and other people's experiences helps it all make sense in my brain.
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  22. #22
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Day 10: 10 days off of methadone day 6 on subutex. I have to admit I a rough night. Consistent Sleep was a challenge. This is day 2 on 6 mg. I could really use some help. I did not cave and stuck with with 3mg at 6:00 am and 3 mg at 2:00. I felt good in the morning but had increasingly anxiety throughout the day. When I took my 2:00 dose the anxiety subsided and I felt fine within 30 minutes. I am not sure what is going on but I do know that the sub cleared it up. My question to my fellow friends here is should I stay at 6 mg???? I know I am an addict and try to rationalize everything about using something to make me "feel better". I am trying to follow the taper accordingly aswell as read other threads. I don't know if the sub level in my body has not stabilized completely due to the first 2 inpatient days fluctuating from a high induction 12 down to 10mg to 8mg . I do not want to titrate up but I did have a clear mindset and was more focused on 8 mg. Today my thought process was peaks and valleys approximately 4 hours after my morning dose. I'm pushing through it but as I am reading the taper I should know on the 4th day any symptoms from the taper. I was trying to find some threads on methadone to subutex. There are some but nothing stating approx length of time before tapering. I don't want to mess this up but I need to function. Am I tapering to fast , should I hold at 6mg waiting to feel better, or ???? I know from experience if it was not for the subutex right now I would be in terrible withdrawals from the methadone and would just be at the end of withdrawals from shorter acting opiates like oxy etc..... this is why I am so confused about my treatment plan. If I left it up to the doctor he has me at 12 mg per day which is stupid. This is why I discharged from impatient after the induction and came to this forum. I am open to anybody's experience with methadone. I have been in the opiate world for way to many years and have kicked everything cold turkey and I understand half lives. Methadone is the one drug I have not been successful at kicking cold turkey. The longest I went was two weeks and the withdrawals were like no other. ANY SUPPORT , EXPERIENCE, ADVICE , SUGGESTIONS NEEDED PLEASE!!!!! I am taking it day by day and to keep on the positive side I am away from the methadone clinic and did not stick to the doctors suggestion of 12mg per day.
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  23. #23
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Mrcardoc
    Hang in there! do Not increase dose!!
    Don't forget, u were on 26mg methadone, which is still coming out of you! The half life of a dose of methadone is abt 72 hours! Subs just mask (for the most part) the wd symptoms! The detox of methadone is taking place while you're getting addicted to the subs! That's part of why Robert325 suggests inducting on the lowest possible dose--you have to taper the subs ultimately!
    Hope that helps. Drink Plenty of water now and Gatorade because subs Dehydrate one big time. The symptoms of dehydration mimic those of anxiety and can make us uneasy. So drink plenty of water! Several previous taper-participants ended up in hospital due to dehydration! Can u believe it? I was never a big water-drinker but found it helpful during the taper.
    Sleep can be an issue. Try Sleepytime tea or anything with valerian root in it. I also took melatonin during my taper.
    Just keep going! There will be some discomfort. It cannot be avoided. Just know that we've all been through it too and you can do this! Why not? If i could, u can too!
    So, i would stay on 6 mg for at least four days to give the body time to adjust. Don't worry abt being unclear re taper at times. Our brains got fuzzy on methadone. I went from 60 mg methadone onto subs. You did better transferring at 26 mg. Be patient now and ride it out!
    Proud of you!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2017 at 09:45 AM.

  24. #24
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you so much for responding. I literally check my thread over and over to see if I have any responses. It's hard when feeling alone, I did not titrate up at all I'm riding it out. I was on methadone for soooo long who knows how long it will remain in my system. Last night was better than the night before and I have the drive to push forward. I just want to be free. I always drink a lot of water. I do now and always have averaged a minimum of a half gallon per day. Thanks again for following me. Just one response gives me the inspiration to keep moving forward in the taper.
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  25. #25
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Cardoc I think I can help...

    I inducted at 2.5
    Next day 10
    next day 6
    then 6
    then 4 x4 days.

    I felt super tired for the first few days after I started subs. That is why I took 10 the second day to see if the problem was not enough sub. I think it was the fact that even wit h100% receptors filled, the subs make it work at 50% power (partial agonist) and that wasn't enough to satisfty my brain, so it had 1 week of fatigue to get adjusted. However, in the middle of that 1 week of fatigue, on like day 2 and 3 I was super wired, super anxious, could not sleep which occurred about 24hrs after I took that 10mg dose on my first full day of subs.

    I noticed that one day after I took 10mg, I went from total fatigue to super wired, anxious, could not sleep. Like... opposite direction of the original problem, and very similar to what you are ddescrribing. Went from waiting around til it hit 10pm so I could sleep and cross the next 8 hours off my day to see if I would feel better tomorrow... all the way to staying up until 6am. The problem, of course, is that I don't sleep both on opiates and off opiates. Opiates gave me energy so I could stay awake 30 hours no sweat. When I withdrawal I also can't sleep, but in a worse way of course. So, while I initially felt like subs didn't work for me cuz I took that to be WD symptoms, I realized that was crazy talk because 99% of ppl can get to feeling good and normal on subs. I realized the problem was too much sub.

    I think the problem was TOO MUCH sub. Because that restl;ess and anxiety wore off as the days went by and I dropped to 4mg.

    What they say is true.. less is more with sub. I thnk your insomina is due to mayeb too much sub just like I think my problem was.

    Less is more. I am on 2mg daily and I feel my best at this dose. Maybe its cuz my body adjusted after 2 weeks of sub, or maybe because this is the perfect dose I don't know.

    The bottom line is you feel the urge to increase and take more... but 6mg is ALOT. This should not be a problem of too little sub at 6mg. Give it a couple days, even try to taper down when you hti your taper day. I suspect you will feel better and sleep better on less sub.

    I also bumped up my afternoon dose to as early as possible. I find when I take it too late I also have trouble sleeping.


    Read my own thread, you can see the exact days where I documented my sleep issues and etc and was trying to sort thru what was going on. Like I said, the day after I took 10mg.. I was super wired. super tight feeling in my chest, feeling like I had to run a mile but it wasn't because of withdrawal creeping in or RLS... it was TOO MUCH sub.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2017 at 11:28 AM.
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  26. #26
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Also, it could be the high dose of subs hitting you from the induction.

    There always seems to be a 1-2 day delay before you feel the subs.

    Either way.. I really think the problem is too much.

    I didnt believe the less is more philosophy myself until I hit 2mg and realized yes I did feel better.


    The first 1-2 weeks are always gonna be rocky. I again suspect you started on 12 way too high. What you feel find as you taper down... you will hit that sweet spot in the taper where you finally reach a dose your brain gets used to. For me it happaned at like 2-3mg and I feel very good nowadays. Way better than at 6 or 10mg.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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  27. #27
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Subs are partial agonists. YOu might be getting all the energy benefit, without all the euphoria.

    So, when you take the euphoria away, you feel super wired but dont feel good moodwise. You mistake that for WD creeping in when in reality you are actually just high on the sub... all the energy and power but none of the euphoria so you don't recognize it as being high but you probably are.

  28. #28
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Got it.......thanks. Yeah that is what I was trying to clarify. I have been up down and all around on my dose and the half lives are making it difficult to judge. Do you think I can go to 4mg from six or should I taper less. This will be day 7 on subutex so I really have not established much consistency yet. I have the drive to do this and have kicked ptertty much every drug CT. I'd like to get to the lowest dose without re induction. Any opinions??? Today will be day 7. 12mg to 8mg to 6 mg.

  29. #29
    Mrcardoc is offline Junior Member
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    Day 11: I did make a minor change in dose times. As I was reading through the different threads it's all making sense. Again thank you to everyone that has been responding as you are my support group. Every comment helps me whether good or bad. I changed my dose in the morning to 5am and afternoon 1:00 pm. Due to feeling super anxious energetic yesterday. This tells me as dsh and others commented that I am to much sub. Currently day 3 at 3mg split dose total 6mg per day. Today I feel great mentally mood etc. No increase in anxiety or irrational thought process.

    My question is going to 4 mg to late in the game right now or should I stick with the Robert taper. I have been really similar to dsh except I was on methadone which I know is only masking my severe withdrawals right now. Am I still within the range of fine tuning my dose as I have not really had any consistency developed yet.

    Still being at week one on subutex should I wait it out on the Robert taper or is it to late to make a bigger cut say to 4mg. I am pretty convinced now that my night of poor sleep and anxiety yesterday was not caused by the dose reduction from 8mg to 6mg. I am thinking my high induction doses half life caught up causing negative results. Today on 6 mg I feel nothing like I did yesterday and feel perfectly fine. Still a bit speedy but nothing major. To be perfectly honest yesterday my anxiety had me being scared to be in public. Definetly not symptoms that I have ever had before. All in all I am wondering people's thoughts on trying to stabilize on 4mg starting tomorrow. I know it's not a race but as far as discipline goes my head is straight and my odds for relapse is pretty much zero. I have been away from my DOC for over 5 years and absolutely despise methadone clinics. I will never go back to that but I really want to reduce my dependence on the subs. Only if I would of found this forum prior to my induction I am pretty sure that I would have induced right around the 4mg range.

    Open to thoughts and opinions. Again thank you all that are helping me. Every response I get helps me through this process. Thus far everyone has been 100% spot on with their advise. Definitely less is more.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2017 at 05:00 PM.

  30. #30
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I think taper down every 4 days. If you are due to hit 4mg, go for it. If you are one day early.. go for it as well.


    Since subs last so long.... if you took 12mg induction... there's still 10mg of that around on day 2, so when you take 8mg or whatever day 2, it might be that 8mg that throws you over the edge because 10 from the induction plus 8 from the dose you just took = blood levels of 18. We're not used to thinking like that with regular opiates, because they only last 6 hours so when we are ready to re-dose, we feel instant feedback from that dose because the old doses are gone, and because full opiates are fast acting and give euphoriea, whereas subs are more slowish acting and don't provide euphoria so our body's feedback is full of delay and errors and missing parts of the high that make it very tough to read.

    Thus, you might be like "well, I tolerated 12 fine, why did I feel super wired after I took 8?" It's becauase the 8 stacked onto the 12 that was still 90% there in your system after just 18hours or so since you took it.

    Always remember that the half life of subs make it so your current blood levels are about 3x your dose if you have been maintained on a dose. So, ppl jumping at 2mg really have blood levels of 6 once you count the fact that all their previous 2mg doses are still hanging around somewhat. If you took 12 then 10 then 8, you blood levels are gonna be a bit higher than taking 8,8,8. Your blood levels are gonna be like 30 isntead of 24 once you add up all the old days' doses. That's why they say it always takes 1-2 days to judge what becomes of a dose change.

    If you feel super wired, maybe be aggressive on your taper, and take it a day early if you want, but the last thing you want to do is increase your dose.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-29-2017 at 06:55 PM.
    Iluv2smile likes this.

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