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My Sub induction and vitamin supplements
  1. #1
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Default My Sub induction and vitamin supplements

    Hi,

    I had my last dose of poppy pod tea at about 10am Mon 31st Oct 2016, I was on about 30-45g of tea a day but only took 10g on the 31st. I waited about 51 hours (very uncomfortable) and took 4mg of Subutex which helped a lot. 24 hrs later and another 4mg of Subutex and the same again brings us to today with a 3rd 4mg dose of Subutex and I'm stabilised it seems, just slight anxiety, constipation and a bit of general tiredness. Plan on dropping to 3mg in one or two days and then by 25% every 4 days.

    I was trying to establish which vitamin supplements, amino acids, herbs which will help and which to avoid. Out of plain over the counter meds I have read to avoid:
    St Johns Wort
    Valarian root
    Grapefruit juice

    and that taking a general multivit and mineral supplement as well as amino acids L-Tyrosine, L-Glutamine and possibly some stronger single vit supplements like B complex and C. Also the herbal teas I am taking are Camomile, Linden, Scutellaria Laterifora (American Skullcap), Lemon Verbena, Verbena Officinalis (Vervain), Sideritis Scardica (Greek Mountain Tea).

    Should I avoid any of these? I'm sure I read that there was one of the B vits to avoid but I can't find that info now but its made me stear clear of the supplements so far although I expect that it was false.

    And for the constipation Lactulose.

    Any advice appreciated.
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  2. #2
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Default Continued

    Dropped to 3mg today after 4 days on 4mg. Started taking vit supplements etc. Coping okay and don't think the drop will make much difference. Expecting to drop to 2.25mg in another 3 days.
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  3. #3
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi Inversions
    Welcome! Try SmoothMove herbal tea for the constipation. Melatonin for sleep issues. I take a B complex every day. I also take a probiotic and it helped immensely w gut issues. Valerian root is good if u can't sleep also.
    Drink a lot of water and that will help unblock the intestines. Don't eat foods hard to digest until you're a bit more regular, digestion-wise. No sense making ourselves more uncomfortable, eh?
    You're on track! Proud of you for taking the plunge! Post when u can...
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  4. #4
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks Ming! Means a lot!

    Woke to some withdrawals this morning, was not expecting that, took my 3mg dose and went back to bed for a couple of hours and fine now. As I understand it the half life varies enormously between people so I've gotta assume that in me it has a short one! Otherwise I'd still have the bupe building up in my system so shouldn't be going into WD's on day 2 of a sub reduction. At least as far as I can figure.

    Unless one of the herbal teas I drink is reducing it somehow. Going to go back to just Camomille, Linden and start on the valerian root now Ming has suggested it. Used to use it to potentiate the pod tea so I have some around. I know its addictive too but only mildly compared to Alcohol, benzo's and opiates, all of which I have come off or in the latter case am coming off.

    I do feel increasingly real. It's hard to explain. When I was on the pod tea all day then I felt normal but now I've been free of it a week and things are coming back. Weird.

  5. #5
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    So here I am at day eight. 4 days at 4mg and 4 days at 3mg. Apart from general mild anxiety (which could be psychological) and a little sweating on day 6 I seem to be fine.

    As I'm on Subutex tablets and I only have 8mg and 2mg tabs its going to be hard to cut them to dose at exactly 2.25mg tomorrow and the Sub in my case seems to have a short half life compared to others. And I only have a very small number of 2mg tabs so I want to save them so I'm going to try dropping to 2mg (a quarter 8mg), so one 8mg tab over 4 days.

    Just putting this up to maybe help others in a similar situ.

  6. #6
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by inversions View Post
    So here I am at day eight. 4 days at 4mg and 4 days at 3mg. Apart from general mild anxiety (which could be psychological) and a little sweating on day 6 I seem to be fine.

    As I'm on Subutex tablets and I only have 8mg and 2mg tabs its going to be hard to cut them to dose at exactly 2.25mg tomorrow and the Sub in my case seems to have a short half life compared to others. And I only have a very small number of 2mg tabs so I want to save them so I'm going to try dropping to 2mg (a quarter 8mg), so one 8mg tab over 4 days.

    Just putting this up to maybe help others in a similar situ.


    Hello!

    It's not that difficult to cut the 2mg and 8mg pills into the doses you'll be needing. You can purchase a pill crusher at most any pharmacy and that makes it easy. Or you could use the back of a spoon and crush the pill into a real fine powder. Either method you use will work fine.

    Then it's simply a matter of separating the crushed pile into separate and equal piles. For example crushing a 2mg piece and separating that into 4 equal piles would get you .5mg doses. Or crushing a 2mg piece and making 8 piles would be .25mg doses.

    It's pretty easy to cut an 8mg pill into 4 pieces of 2mg each with a razor blade. Then you'll have plenty of 2mg pieces including the 2mg pills you have.

    Once you get the dose needed fold a business card down the middle. Place the dose you're taking on the card and pour it under your tongue. It dissolves very quickly this way. If you crush up doses in advance (I recommend doing that) you can store it in a piece of aluminum foil for safe keeping. Just make sure to label what the doses are because it's very easy to forget.

    Hope this helps. You're doing great!

    Randy
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  7. #7
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    You're doing great. So the plan is to go from 3mg to 2mg? It's an ever so slightly bigger drop but at 2mg you're still going to a good stable dose. The only important thing to remember when you drop to 2mg is - first, don't panic if you feel a bit >>>>>> for a couple days. It's just your mind/body healing and catching up.

    So just stay nice and patient there until you really feel stable then you can start dropping again. 2mg is really almost the perf dose for most people as far as holding you stable and letting your mind clear a bit Then you can drop again.
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  8. #8
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the advice everyone. Very helpful.

    I will let you know how it all goes. I'm going to try 2mg tomorrow rather than 2.25. Will let you know!
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  9. #9
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Well, here I am 9 and a half days into my sub treatment. 4 days on 4mg, 4 days on 3mg and now 1 and a bit days on 2mg and things seem stable enough. Got an appetite, little anxiety but I can leave the house and do shopping and stuff. no sweats or any of the WD's I experienced trying CT, except for a little sweating on day 6. So I'm thinking I'm going to be stable on 2mg for another couple of days. Then I'll try 1.5.

  10. #10
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Actually I've been doing some reading around and can't decide from the info I've found if this would be good for me or not. Currently I'm taking 1500mg of L-Glutamine, a decent general vitamin and mineral supplement, Vit B complex (all at well over 100% RDA except for Biotin which is 100% RDA) and vit C 1000mg.

    I'm considering taking L-Tyrosine and Phenylalanine but am concerned that might increase my anxiety problems but on the other hand I'm a bit lacking in motivation and seem to sleep for about 10+ hours a day, not like a need it. I go to bed between 11 and 12:30 at night and just don't wake up until about 9/10am, I take my days dose of sub and go back to bed waiting for it to kick in as I don't usually feel 100%. Next thing I know it's like midday!

    I have tons of stuff to be getting on with and need to restart my online business but I am lacking the motivation.

    Any advice appreciated.

  11. #11
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Inversions
    Welcome
    Up to you about the L tyrosine. I tried it but it was too speedy for me (and i took lower than the recommended dose.)
    Drink plenty of water. If you're eating and sleeping well, just hang in there for now.
    Post when u can...
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  12. #12
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the info.

    Anyway, I'm on day 12 of sub treatment. 4 days on 4mg, 4 days on 3mg and 4 days on 2 mg. Tomorrow will drop to 1.5mg.
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  13. #13
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    I'm on day 14 of sub treatment. 4 days on 4mg, 4 days on 3mg and 5 days on 2 mg. Dropped to 1.5mg today. Biggest problem is the continuing anxiety which although fairly mild is a constant and does not seem to diminish. Also a lack of will and desire to stay in bed and I am still sleeping for long periods. Forced myself to get up after only 9 hours in bed last night but I would love to return but can't as the landlord has today decided to have some work done so I've got a couple of guys downstairs doing stuff. Bit of a pain.
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  14. #14
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Inversions
    The anxiety is often worsened by a lack of water. The body mimics the symptoms of anxiety when it's dehydrated. Drink plenty of water as subs dehydrate the body considerably. I took valerian root to calm down. The good news is that as the body relearns how to make its own endorphins, the anxiety goes away! Hang in there. Commit to getting through this no matter what is thrown in your path. U can do this!!
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  15. #15
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks Ming, especially interesting regarding the anxiety caused by dehydration. I will definitely make more effort to stay hydrated as my pee is darker than normal so I must be more dehydrated than normal.

    Do you think 5-HTP will halp? I believe that helps produce endorphins?

    I used to drink St John's Wort which I also believe increases endorphins but I have read it increases metabolism of the bupe so I'm staying off it.
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  16. #16
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Inversions
    The dark pee is not to be dismissed lightly! Immediately begin drinking at least 4 sixteen oz bottles of spring water daily! Have a salad. I don't know about 5-htp. Flush your system with water and some Gatorade too. Keep a close eye on the color of the urine--esp the first of the day. Maybe drink some beet and carrot juice too. Let us know how you're doing.
    P.S.: the beets in the veggie juice will also darken the urine so perhaps just do carrot and apple in beginning.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 11-16-2016 at 02:13 PM.
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  17. #17
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks Ming, don't see Gatorade over here but I believe its an Isotonic sports drink yes? I can get generic Isotonic drinks over here no problem, the branded ones are 3-4 times the price! I drink them anyway as I like the taste.

    First pee this morning a lot lighter than yesterday and that is probably due to the many pints of herbal tea I forced myself to drink yesterday (can't stand plain water, never have). I shall work on improving my fluid intake further.

    2nd day on 1.5mg sub. Woke early with slight sweats, took daily dose of sub and went back to bed. Now fine.

  18. #18
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Again an update more for anyone else going through this than for me really.

    Anyway, day 16 of sub treatment. 4 days on 4mg, 4 days on 3mg and 5 days on 2 mg 3 days on 1.5 today (being my 3rd day on 1.5). Still plagued by anxiety, even had anxiety based dreams last night. Staying hydrated as per advice above. Sleeping less now. more normal hours, guess that's the sub reduction.

    Must start exercising, getting out more.

  19. #19
    Ricky71 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by inversions View Post
    Again an update more for anyone else going through this than for me really.

    Anyway, day 16 of sub treatment. 4 days on 4mg, 4 days on 3mg and 5 days on 2 mg 3 days on 1.5 today (being my 3rd day on 1.5). Still plagued by anxiety, even had anxiety based dreams last night. Staying hydrated as per advice above. Sleeping less now. more normal hours, guess that's the sub reduction.

    Must start exercising, getting out more.
    inversions - congratulations on your decision to get clean, that's awesome! Just my two cents! I think if you slow down a bit with your taper you will find that your anxiety and any other withdrawal symptoms that you are experiencing will lessen and possibly go away all together? Slow and steady really is key when it comes to tapering, Just make sure you are stable on your current dose before doing the next reduction and don't taper by more than 25% especially now since you're getting to the lower doses! Are you dosing once or twice a day? Also it's very important to take your dose/doses at the same time everyday! Update when you can? Hang in there, you're doing great! God bless us all!
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  20. #20
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Inversions -

    I just want to 2nd the advice Ricky has given you. As your sub dose gets lower and lower sometimes it takes the body a little longer to get stable and accept the new dose. You may find it beneficial to spend another day or two on each dose now to hopefully lessen any symptoms you're having. This is the time we really want off and things get sped up sometimes when they really shouldn't. You've been doing EVERYTHING right so not saying you're aren't. Just take your time from now on and your body will let you know when it's time to reduce your dose.

    Now saying all that some symptoms ARE to be expected because you're getting off strong drugs. Not suppose to be the easiest thing in the world to do. Take that attitude and you'll be just fine.

    Randy
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  21. #21
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Cheers guys. I seem to be cleared up today. When I first posted I was still suffering the anxiety but that seems to have dissipated. From my experiences so far I get minor WD's two days after a reduction and a bit on the third day.

    Anyway, I try to take the sub at roughly the same time every day but it depends on when I first wake which has been between about 7am-10am. I take it in one dose rather than split it. With its long half life I see little point in splitting it. That said if I wake late I'm usually feeling some sort of WD but not terrible.

    I plan to reduce to 1mg in another 2 days and stay on that for 5 days. I figure the 33% reduction won't be a major problem as the last time I did a 33% reduction it wasn't that painful. But I will heed your advice and see how my body reacts.
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  22. #22
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Day 18 of sub treatment. still at 1.5mg. Was supposed to try 1mg today but the tablet broke awkwardly so I probably ended up taking slightly more than 1.5 but that leaves me with a small piece so I'll assume that today I took about 1.6 so tomorrow 1.4 and then I'll go for 1mg and stay on that five days before cutting to 0.75.

    Someone gave me some Maca root powder yesterday. A quick search seems to suggest it is good to take on a sub taper, has anyone tried it?

  23. #23
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Down to 1mg today. If its going to put me in WD's I expect to feel it tomorrow.

  24. #24
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Down to about 0.9/0.8mg a day, hard to judge. I'm going to have to start crushing them and making piles to judge better.

    But I'm finding it increasingly hard to control my drinking. Can I take Antabuse/Disulfiram at the same time?

  25. #25
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Day 27 of sub treatment.

    Currently on 0.8/day.

    Plan to drop to 0.67 (half an 8mg tab crushed and divided into 6)
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  26. #26
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Day 32 and I've dropped a bit quicker than recommended but things have been mostly okay.

    Currently on 3rd day at 0.6mg (possibly a bit less, its hard to judge when crushing up the larger pills and I always seem to loose a bit or two that goes flying off never to be seen again).

    So down to a solid 0.5 in two days which I'll then do for 4 days and then start skipping days I reckon.

  27. #27
    DravenDomnq is offline Advanced Member
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    Great job so far! I have to keep moving to keep the lights on here, but doing it more and more find I am getting things done much faster and better than when I was on the pills or any of my taper withdrawals. Where I have to work it sometimes gets cold which is hard to deal with, but find if I work for an hour, then come in like I'm doing now and eat some soup, then go back out it helps a lot. Soup has helped me through all my withdrawals, helps keep the chills at bay and get something in me when I can hold it down. I also personally think the L-Tyrosine is helping calm down my mental state as well, have been able to get off the Xanax completely through the jump and have cut my Trazadone down to a 3rd now since starting all of this, so keep it up, things definitely get better!!

  28. #28
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Hi, I ask again can I take antabuse/disulfirum with the subutex?

  29. #29
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Inversions
    Don't know about the antabuse. Isn't that for alcohol?
    Are u crushing the pills w back of spoon? Then separating piles w a credit card or such? Sorry u have pieces flying off!
    You can taper to less than .5 mg before skipping. Up to you.
    Good job getting down in taper. How you feeling today?

  30. #30
    inversions is offline Junior Member
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    Day 36 and my third day on 0.5mg. One more day on that and I'm going to start skipping days.

    Problem is that my old alcoholism is threatening to reassert itself. I have at last found definitive info that I can take subutex and antabuse/disulfiram without any serious risk. It's often proscribed together apparently. Basically I need something to stop me drinking (being drunk is my goto safe place if I feel under pressure) for a bit. Once I've got xmas out the way and the load of stuff I have to do for that I think I won't need the antabuse.

    Hi Ming,

    Yes I'm okay thanks. Feeling good about the idea of getting off it for good. About another 8 days I reckon and I should be fine.

    Thanks for the support. I'll be back.
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