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New...looking for help with Suboxone taper
  1. #1
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default New...looking for help with Suboxone taper

    Hi all,
    I've been reading as many posts as I can, to try and better understand the process of tapering off suboxone.
    My story is a lot like many I've read here, I'm a long term opioid user, who about 10 years ago got access to large amounts of very potent narcotics and became very addicted. The last couple of years I was snorting 10-15 30mg oxycodone, on top of taking 200-400mg of oral morphine.
    Last month I decided I had to stop. I went to a local treatment facility and the Dr gave me a suboxone prescription and I'm also doing once a week one-on-one counseling, and in group "Relapse Prevention" therapy 4 hours a week for 12 weeks. But I'm really conflicted about the group, since I feel like I'm really still using. I know it's probably impossible for me to not use something to help me get off the narcotics, but it still feels really hypocritical when the alcoholics aren't drinking, and others there aren't using their drug of choice. Oh well, I'm trying to get out of it what I can, and get clean as quickly as I'm able.
    The doctor put me on 8mg/day, but I knew I wanted to get down to the lowest dose I could, so after the first week I dropped to 6, then the next week 5, and finally down to 4. The past few days I've tried to get down to 3, dosing 1.5mg in the morning and 1.5 in the evening. But I never make it. About 3 in the afternoon I start feeling my back clenching, and start sweating. I begin watching the clock to figure out when I can take my next dose. The first day I took 1.5 in the evening and made it through, but the next day I caved and took 2mg in the evening, and today I just went back to 2/2. I feel a lot better at this dose.
    So I'm wondering, should I stay at 4mg for 4 days to a week, and then try to go down? Should I try 1.75/1.75 and see if that works? Any suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks very much,
    Jackie
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  2. #2
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    Hi all,
    I've been reading as many posts as I can, to try and better understand the process of tapering off suboxone.
    My story is a lot like many I've read here, I'm a long term opioid user, who about 10 years ago got access to large amounts of very potent narcotics and became very addicted. The last couple of years I was snorting 10-15 30mg oxycodone, on top of taking 200-400mg of oral morphine.
    Last month I decided I had to stop. I went to a local treatment facility and the Dr gave me a suboxone prescription and I'm also doing once a week one-on-one counseling, and in group "Relapse Prevention" therapy 4 hours a week for 12 weeks. But I'm really conflicted about the group, since I feel like I'm really still using. I know it's probably impossible for me to not use something to help me get off the narcotics, but it still feels really hypocritical when the alcoholics aren't drinking, and others there aren't using their drug of choice. Oh well, I'm trying to get out of it what I can, and get clean as quickly as I'm able.
    The doctor put me on 8mg/day, but I knew I wanted to get down to the lowest dose I could, so after the first week I dropped to 6, then the next week 5, and finally down to 4. The past few days I've tried to get down to 3, dosing 1.5mg in the morning and 1.5 in the evening. But I never make it. About 3 in the afternoon I start feeling my back clenching, and start sweating. I begin watching the clock to figure out when I can take my next dose. The first day I took 1.5 in the evening and made it through, but the next day I caved and took 2mg in the evening, and today I just went back to 2/2. I feel a lot better at this dose.
    So I'm wondering, should I stay at 4mg for 4 days to a week, and then try to go down? Should I try 1.75/1.75 and see if that works? Any suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks very much,
    Jackie
    Hi Jackie and Welcome!

    The taper planned used here and has proven to be successful for thousands folks is called Robert's Sub Taper Plan. Have you seen it and reviewed it? If not, I would encourage you to do that. You can skip the induction process because you've been taking your subs for a few weeks now.

    The process is fairly simply. Once you've established the dose that you are stable (little to no symptoms) you stay at that dose for around four days and then you can begin to taper by 25% but never more than that. So, if your magic dose right now is 4mg, keep taking that dose for four days to be sure that you're completely stable. On the fifth day, you can reduce to 3mg/day. Splitting that in half and dosing twice a day is perfectly OK. You'll want to try to dose once a day once you get to a lower dose but for now, you're good. With each reduction you can expect to be mostly OK on that first day but then will probably feel some minor symptoms on days 2 and 3. Hopefully, you will become symptom-free on day 4 and ready to reduce again on Day 5. If it takes you a day or two longer to become completely stable, it's very important to stay at your current dose until you are stable. If you find that the 25% reduction is too much, it's OK to make smaller reductions. No race. Your best chance of successfully completing your taper is to do it slowly enough that you are mostly comfortable. There will be some bumps usually with a new reduction but if you stay the course, your body will become accustomed to the lower dose in just a few days. It's just important to know that your taper will not be completely without symptoms but they should be mild enough that they won't stop you from doing the things you need to do. Once you are stable and make your reduction, it's important to tough it out for those few days and you will become stable. If you are continually having a difficult time then perhaps smaller reductions might be better for you but avoid increasing your dose or you'll be at this forever. The worst thing you can do is to go up and down on your doses. Better to make smaller ones and keep moving in the right direction.

    I need to say something about your discomfort in your group meeting. You are not a hypocrite for attending those meetings! You are beginning to do your recovery work and that's the entire point behind sub therapy (aside from the obvious of avoiding acute symptoms). You are learning and gaining the tools that you will need in order to maintain your sobriety long after your are done with your taper. Think about it. I do know how others may make you feel about this though. Sometimes there are people who will look down their noses at you because you're not technically clean. That's their problem. You're in that group to learn how you're going to manage your sobriety. In fact, if there any of those folks in your group, I wouldn't even tell them that you're taking subs. No law that says you have to tell them that. You can do your spiel about what your drug of choice was and you can honestly say that you haven't taken that for xxxx days/weeks/months. That's all they need to know.

    Keep posting! Ask questions and keep us in the loop to let us know how you're doing. Welcome again and good luck.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  3. #3
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Thank you, Catrina

    Thanks so much for getting back to me so quickly!
    I have read Robert's taper plan. I just didn't get the part you explained about how you get stable. Now I think I get it: you drop down a little, the first day will be ok, the next two days there will be some symptoms, but shouldn't be horrible, and the fourth day you should be better. If not, stay at the dose until you are stable, even if it takes longer than four days. Then you can drop. I didn't get that part.
    I'm going to stay at 2/2 for another day or two, then try 1.75/1.75 and see how I do.
    Oh, and thank you for the part about group. It's mostly in my head I think. Everyone has been very supportive and kind, it's just me.

    I'm going to keep posting here for the support. Thanks so much!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-14-2017 at 08:58 PM.

  4. #4
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Sub taper and UA

    I realized I have one other question. My Dr and counselor both tell me I'll have to be on subs for "at least a year or two" to get stable. Initially, I told them I was dropping my dose because I felt like it was too much, and I felt "high" at 8mg, which was true. But I also knew from reading here that the longer I stay on subs the harder it is to get off, so my plan has always been to either get down to the lowest possible dose, or preferably, get completely off.
    So my question is, as I drop my dosage will they be able to see that in the UA, or will I just show as "positive" for subs? I'm just curious because I need to know if I'm going to have to tell them I'm not doing what they are telling me (stay on subs 1-2 years).
    Thanks!
    Jackie
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  5. #5
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    I realized I have one other question. My Dr and counselor both tell me I'll have to be on subs for "at least a year or two" to get stable. Initially, I told them I was dropping my dose because I felt like it was too much, and I felt "high" at 8mg, which was true. But I also knew from reading here that the longer I stay on subs the harder it is to get off, so my plan has always been to either get down to the lowest possible dose, or preferably, get completely off.
    So my question is, as I drop my dosage will they be able to see that in the UA, or will I just show as "positive" for subs? I'm just curious because I need to know if I'm going to have to tell them I'm not doing what they are telling me (stay on subs 1-2 years).
    Thanks!
    Jackie
    I personally would not say anything to the doctor about you doing your own taper! Just let them think you are following their advice meanwhile continue to follow Robert's plan as you are planning to do!

    The drug tests they use are usually an 8, 10 or 12 panel test. They are testing to make sure that you are not taking anything you're not prescribed and also that you are testing positive for what you are prescribed! Those tests do not provide an amount just if you are testing positive or negative?
    As long as you are taking your sub you will test positive for (buprenorphine)...

    How many subs are you being prescribed per month, thirty 8mg correct? You should be building a stock pile since your not taking the full 8mg/day? Do you have the tabs or film? Update when you can? God bless us all!

  6. #6
    weanqueen is offline Member
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    Hi! I love reading about people wanting to get clean and I just wanted to offer support! Catrina and Ricky are very knowledgeable and beyond helpful, they're a blessing really. Thank goodness Ricky told me I shouldn't take some leftover Wellbutrin I found in my drawer, I would have run out by now and I'm sure I'd be a whole other mess with depression after stopping something like that-- this site is a major blessing to my life and everyone here! I'm not as knowledgeable as everyone else (I'm only 31 days off suboxone) but I can offer support if you ever need someone to vent to! Good luck with your taper, xo

  7. #7
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Amount of subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky71 View Post
    I personally would not say anything to the doctor about you doing your own taper! Just let them think you are following their advice meanwhile continue to follow Robert's plan as you are planning to do!

    The drug tests they use are usually an 8, 10 or 12 panel test. They are testing to make sure that you are not taking anything you're not prescribed and also that you are testing positive for what you are prescribed! Those tests do not provide an amount just if you are testing positive or negative?
    As long as you are taking your sub you will test positive for (buprenorphine)...

    How many subs are you being prescribed per month, thirty 8mg correct? You should be building a stock pile since your not taking the full 8mg/day? Do you have the tabs or film? Update when you can? God bless us all!

    Thanks for the info on UA and subs. I did tell Dr that I'd dropped to 6mg, and so she switched me to 2mg films, which I was glad of because it's easier to cut them down to smaller doses. I currently have 33-2mg films, left over from 45 they gave me last Tuesday that was supposed to be a two week supply at 6mg per day. So short answer is that I have plenty of sub. I am certainly not going to tell them I'm tapering, especially since you tell me they only test to see if you're positive for subs and amount doesn't matter. Dr wasn't angry at me for dropping from 8 to 6. I told her that 8 made me feel "high," which it actually did. She just said to consult with her before I go lower, so I could tell her next week that I'd like to go down to 4 (even though I'm already there).

    My plan is to stay at 4 for 2-3 more days just to let my body adjust. From what I've read here it seems like slow taper is the way to go, and not try and drop if my body isn't ready.

    Thanks Ricky!
    Jackie

  8. #8
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    Thanks for the info on UA and subs. I did tell Dr that I'd dropped to 6mg, and so she switched me to 2mg films, which I was glad of because it's easier to cut them down to smaller doses. I currently have 33-2mg films, left over from 45 they gave me last Tuesday that was supposed to be a two week supply at 6mg per day. So short answer is that I have plenty of sub. I am certainly not going to tell them I'm tapering, especially since you tell me they only test to see if you're positive for subs and amount doesn't matter. Dr wasn't angry at me for dropping from 8 to 6. I told her that 8 made me feel "high," which it actually did. She just said to consult with her before I go lower, so I could tell her next week that I'd like to go down to 4 (even though I'm already there).

    My plan is to stay at 4 for 2-3 more days just to let my body adjust. From what I've read here it seems like slow taper is the way to go, and not try and drop if my body isn't ready.

    Thanks Ricky!
    Jackie
    I wouldn't mention that you dropped to 4mg/day! As far as the doctor is concerned, you are at 6mg/day and you feel good!

    Continue to stockpile your subs that way if there is ever an issue you'll have plenty to complete Robert's plan without the need to go to the doctor to get more!

    Follow Cat's advice from her earlier post to you. Remember to take your sub doses at the same time everyday 8-10 hours apart. For example, dose 2mg at 9am and then dose 2mg at 6pm for a total of 4mg/day. DO NOT DO AN REDUCTION UNTIL YOU ARE COMPLETELY STABLE ON YOUR CURRENT DOSE!

    Here's a great video from a drugs.com member named HarrySmooth, this should help you quite a bit with cutting your sub film accurately - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ttZ5ATKb-LE

    By the way, Robert's plan takes roughly 6-8 weeks to complete from start to finish, sometimes a little longer? The key is SLOW and STEADY! Best of luck to you... Keep us updated on everything? God bless us all!

  9. #9
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Schedule and update

    Hi all,
    I'm heading out to work soon, but thought I'd post a quick update.

    I'm staying at 2/2 today as I think I'll do a slower taper now that I'm starting to really feel the effects when I drop down. Since I'm working and taking care of my kids while I do this I'm going to take things slowly so I can minimize my discomfort. I understand that this process is not painless, and there will be days I feel withdrawal symptoms, and I'll have to tough it out, but the next two days I have to work, so I might as well be fairly comfortable. Actually, as I say that it makes me think that maybe I should try and drop a small amount tomorrow, so days 2 and 3 are on the weekend. Since I don't have to work, I can be a bit more symptomatic.

    But my next drop I think I'll take 1.75/1.75 to ease down and see if I have fewer symptoms.

    Ricky, Catrina, and weanqueen, thanks for the posts and support. I will stay quiet about my taper with the doctor. You're probably right that she'd just start giving me lectures about how I need to stay on for a long time. And honestly, I don't know how long this process will take. It could take me longer than I think to get to the magic 0. The way my body reacted to going to 3, was way different than my drops from higher doses, so I know that right now I'm at the point where the subs are providing me a good benefit, without being too much, or too little. So maybe even staying at this dose a little longer isn't out of the question. I'm not trying to self-talk myself into staying on, just trying to be realistic. I have been on and off, but mostly ON some sort of narcotic, for the past 20 years, and before that I regularly took them whenever I could get them, so this addiction has been very long term. I didn't get on in a day, and won't get off in a day either.

    I'll keep posting, and this will help me document my journey, and maybe help others down the road. Thanks again, to everyone for your help and support.
    Jackie

  10. #10
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Hi Jackie - welcome! So great you stumbled into this group early in the process. That's great you're down to the 2/2 and going to meetings/group. Please do NOT feel at all guilty for being on subs and going to meetings. It's just part of the process for you.

    So glad you found this place before a year or two of listening to your doctor the way many of us did...sadly there's much more knowledge here than in those offices.

    Your first posts are like deja vu to a lot of us. So you came to the right place. Like Ricky and Cat said, stabilize then slowly reduce and listen to your body. Try to start building healthy habits for what you eat and exercise/walking - will help a lot over the process.
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  11. #11
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Hi Uncle Leo and update

    Thanks UncleLeo,
    I've read many of your posts, so nice to virtually "meet" you. But I don't know how are you doing, as I've mostly read you encouraging others. Are you stable on a dose, or have you quit completely? From my reading I know that tapering was a tough time for you, so I'm particularly interested in how things went for you. If you feel like posting a bit it would be good information for me (or point me to a link if you don't want to re-post stuff you wrote elsewhere).

    My goal is 0, but I'm just not sure exactly how long that will take. I've been on something for so long now that complete abstinence is a scary thought, even though it IS my goal.

    BTW, I did end up dropping slightly today. Instead of 2mg, I started the day with 1.75, and still fell fine. Although it's usually afternoon when I start having problems. I figured that .25 down wasn't THAT big of a drop compared to .5, and if it's really bad this afternoon I could always take 2mg this evening and still be down slightly. But I'm hoping the .25 drop is so small that I can do the same this afternoon.

    Take care, and thanks for the support.
    Jackie

  12. #12
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Hi Jackie - yes I'm at zero But no, it certainly was not easy for me. Luckily, mine was more of an outlier and most people have a much easier time.

    One thing you have to get right though is the mindset part. It can't just be a "goal" of zero - you have to fully COMMIT to ZERO. It will be the best decision you ever made. I knew I was going to get to zero and stay there even if it nearly killed me along the way. There was NEVER any other option in my mind. If there had been I never would have made it I can honestly say.

    As far as dosing goes, pick a dose and stick with it until stable - it's not something that you can tinker with day to day as sub builds up in your system then very slowly leaves your system. There most likely will be some moments of discomfort as you've already noticed, but that's ok. It's part of the process. If you stick to the slow reductions the discomfort will slowly pass as well

  13. #13
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default commitment

    Uncle Leo,
    you said: "One thing you have to get right though is the mindset part. It can't just be a "goal" of zero - you have to fully COMMIT to ZERO. It will be the best decision you ever made. I knew I was going to get to zero and stay there even if it nearly killed me along the way. There was NEVER any other option in my mind. If there had been I never would have made it I can honestly say."

    I completely get this. It's probably just not coming through as well as I wish in my posts. I am completely committed to 0. The ONLY deviation from this that I am not sure of is the time frame. I've read that some folks stayed at a particular dose for months instead of days, and I am just not sure how my brain and body are going to react. Maybe my question should have been framed as, "why do some people stay on sub longer?" My guess is that they just don't feel mentally ready to come off, and I COMPLETELY get that.

    It took me three weeks on sub before I could commit to getting rid of all the stuff in my house. I had a LOT of narc leftover and it was HARD to pour them into the disposal bottle. I couldn't do it until I knew I felt comfortable on subs. So it's kind of the same thing when I say I'm committed to 0, but just don't know how long it will take. I have 11 weeks of Relapse Prevention group, and I know the one-on-one counseling is helping, but I'm only a month in so I'm keeping all my options on the table. Except using. That would be a big failure, but my stash is gone, and I don't have a supplier, so I'd really have to plan to get DOC, and I am not making any of those plans.

    Hope this wasn't too rambling... :-)
    Jackie
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  14. #14
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    Uncle Leo,
    you said: "One thing you have to get right though is the mindset part. It can't just be a "goal" of zero - you have to fully COMMIT to ZERO. It will be the best decision you ever made. I knew I was going to get to zero and stay there even if it nearly killed me along the way. There was NEVER any other option in my mind. If there had been I never would have made it I can honestly say."

    I completely get this. It's probably just not coming through as well as I wish in my posts. I am completely committed to 0. The ONLY deviation from this that I am not sure of is the time frame. I've read that some folks stayed at a particular dose for months instead of days, and I am just not sure how my brain and body are going to react. Maybe my question should have been framed as, "why do some people stay on sub longer?" My guess is that they just don't feel mentally ready to come off, and I COMPLETELY get that.

    It took me three weeks on sub before I could commit to getting rid of all the stuff in my house. I had a LOT of narc leftover and it was HARD to pour them into the disposal bottle. I couldn't do it until I knew I felt comfortable on subs. So it's kind of the same thing when I say I'm committed to 0, but just don't know how long it will take. I have 11 weeks of Relapse Prevention group, and I know the one-on-one counseling is helping, but I'm only a month in so I'm keeping all my options on the table. Except using. That would be a big failure, but my stash is gone, and I don't have a supplier, so I'd really have to plan to get DOC, and I am not making any of those plans.

    Hope this wasn't too rambling... :-)
    Jackie

    Hi Jackie -

    Just caught up with your thread and you're doing awesome! You're getting help and support from some of the very best this forum has to offer.

    I read the above highlighted question you asked and wanted to answer. You nailed it with your answer too...Some people just require more time on the sub and don't feel ready to come off for fear of a relapse.

    For me personally it was 9 months on Suboxone. I never intended to be taking it that long, but I knew without one shred of doubt I wasn't nearly ready to stop taking it after a few weeks or months. I knew another relapse would positively happen as it had so many times before. The longer I was on the sub the farther away I got from the addiction process. My head was pretty messed up after nearly 18 years abusing every drug on earth. As the months passed my head begin to "heal' and I knew I was done with drugs. It's an individual thing in my opinion. I'll have 3 years clean on July 7th.

    So many come here wanting on and off the subs in record time and to me that's not going to accomplish anything positive. Some use the subs until they can get their drug of choice, while others fear they will become addicted to the sub themselves, which isn't very likely. These people seem to be among the highest for relapses.

    Robert's Sub Therapy Plan in my opinion is just about the right time frame for MOST people. At 6-8 weeks from induction to final jump it allows time to curb addictive thoughts and behaviors. If you need to spend a bit more time it's perfectly ok.

    Keep up the good work!

    Randy
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  15. #15
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re:staying on sub longer

    Hi Randy,
    Nice to virtually "meet" you too. Thanks to you, and everyone else for stopping over to give advice and encouragement. I really appreciate it. It's nice to have a place to ask questions and talk openly. I'm also talking to people in group and for my counseling, but it's really great to have folks who've "been there, done that." I also wanted to say how great it is that so many of the people talking to me here are completely off subs. What a great place to be for you. Uncle Leo, I know you struggled all the way down, so getting and staying at none is a huge accomplishment. Randy, I'm sure you were one of the people who I read about who stayed on longer than the "typical" taper...although honestly I don't really know enough to even talk knowledgeably of a typical taper...so it's great to hear from you and learn from your experiences.

    I've had almost no issues with 1.75 today. I figured dropping a little less might be helpful for me, and so far, so good. I am in this "game" long term, so I'm not in a hurry. As I said before, I have a couple more months of group, and probably even more months of counseling to work on my issues. As long as I'm not craving, I can work and take care of my kids, keep going to my program, and work my way down on mg of subs, I figure it's good.

    Thanks again, everyone. You all are such a huge inspiration!
    Jackie
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-15-2017 at 04:28 PM.
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  16. #16
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default under 4!

    Woo hoo, I did fine on 1.75/1.75 for a total of 3.5 today. Hopefully tomorrow will be as easy, but if not I know this dose is doable for me, and I really hope to stick to it the next 4-7 days. I know it's not super low, but it's the right direction.
    Thanks to all for your kind words and support.
    J
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-15-2017 at 10:12 PM.

  17. #17
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    Woo hoo, I did fine on 1.75/1.75 for a total of 3.5 today. Hopefully tomorrow will be as easy, but if not I know this dose is doable for me, and I really hope to stick to it the next 4-7 days. I know it's not super low, but it's the right direction.
    Thanks to all for your kind words and support.
    J
    J - first off did you read the post I sent you with the link to HarrySmooth's video?

    Now I'm going to get straight to it, please listen to what Cat and the rest of us have told you about subs, please go back to the beginning of your thread and read every post again, please read Robert's plan again?

    I would of not recommended that you dropped in dose today! You just went back up to 4mg yesterday because you were having issues from the last drop, remember Cat even said that you should stay at 4mg for the next 4 days to make sure you are good and stable!

    The reason you stay at a particular dose for a minimum of four days is so the long half-life of the sub can catch up! So at the end of four days or sometimes a day or two longer than four is when you will know for sure that you are completely stable on that current dose and then and only then you can do a 25% reduction? Rinse and repeat the same process again, everytime!

    Just slow down, remember it's not a race! I hope I didn't sound too harsh? I just don't want you to feel these drops too much, it's a much better experience to go slow and be as comfortable as possible throughout your sub therapy?

    Update when you can? Remember to watch Harry's video if you haven't already? Take care... God bless us all!

  18. #18
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Ricky,
    Thanks. That makes sense. I was thinking that I'd been on 4 for a week, so I should drop, but you're right, got to remember to be STABLE and not going up and down, and I'm not in a hurry. So do you think I should go back to 2/2 tomorrow, or stick with 1.75x2?

    And yes, did watch the video. Very helpful. It's nice I've got the 2mg so there a bit bigger.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-15-2017 at 11:20 PM.

  19. #19
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    Ricky,
    Thanks. That makes sense. I was thinking that I'd been on 4 for a week, so I should drop, but you're right, got to remember to be STABLE and not going up and down, and I'm not in a hurry. So do you think I should go back to 2/2 tomorrow, or stick with 1.75x2?

    And yes, did watch the video. Very helpful. It's nice I've got the 2mg so there a bit bigger.
    If you want to stay at 3.5mg/day split up in two even doses then by all means but remember to stay right there until you are completely stable on that dose, no going up and down! Also remember it might take longer than four days to get Stable, it might take five, six or even seven days? Just DO NOT do your next 25% drop until you are completely stable!

    Make sure you are dosing twice a day, at the same times everyday 8-10 hours apart! Follow the plan, you will do just fine. Keep us updated? God bless us all!

  20. #20
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Got it.
    Thanks again,
    Jackie
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-16-2017 at 08:22 AM.

  21. #21
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    I'm just curious. I have 11 weeks of my group left, and I'm not sure how much counselling time. Has anyone done a very slow taper, like over months instead of weeks? Or do you think I should just keep doing the Robert taper and then hold at .25 or so until I am done with counselling?

    I'm just looking for advice/suggestions if anyone wants to share their thoughts and/or experiences.

    Thanks,
    J
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  22. #22
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    I'm just curious. I have 11 weeks of my group left, and I'm not sure how much counselling time. Has anyone done a very slow taper, like over months instead of weeks? Or do you think I should just keep doing the Robert taper and then hold at .25 or so until I am done with counselling?

    I'm just looking for advice/suggestions if anyone wants to share their thoughts and/or experiences.

    Thanks,
    J
    Hi Jackie,

    It was good to read that you're doing well. Don't get ahead of yourself with your taper. Follow Robert's Plan exactly and the end of this will work out when you're ready. A perfect taper will take 6-8 weeks but there may be times when you'll want to stay at a particular dose a little longer or make less of a reduction. So, it's easy to see how it may take you a few weeks longer. Just keep on keeping on and things will work out. If you're ready to jump long before your group/sessions are done, you can decide then.

    Peace,

    Cat

  23. #23
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    Hi Jackie,

    It was good to read that you're doing well. Don't get ahead of yourself with your taper. Follow Robert's Plan exactly and the end of this will work out when you're ready. A perfect taper will take 6-8 weeks but there may be times when you'll want to stay at a particular dose a little longer or make less of a reduction. So, it's easy to see how it may take you a few weeks longer. Just keep on keeping on and things will work out. If you're ready to jump long before your group/sessions are done, you can decide then.

    Peace,

    Cat
    Thanks Cat,
    Like every other addict out there I want to KNOW NOW. :-) You're right, I'll just keep on going, one day at a time, and stay here for the support and encouragement. Thanks for everything all of you do to help me, and others. It's pretty >>>> amazing.

    Jackie

  24. #24
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default This Weekend

    Hi all,
    I am sitting here at 5:45am after being up since 3, but I went to bed when I got home from work, so I got plenty of sleep. I've been having a hard time at the end of the workday doing anything but going right to bed. Arrrgh, between working to getting off opioids, and the loss of my husband earlier this year I've been pretty down. Group, counseling, and coming here has been a big help in getting me to think about getting back into life again. I am so completely closed down. Our family went through a very rough time during my husband's illness, he had cancer, and the last year was tough. None of us are coping well, particularly me as I massively over medicated to try and kill the pain--first, of knowing he was dying, then of actually losing him. It's been a very rough road.

    But I'm starting to feel like I'm turning a corner. I'm taking subs from my doctor to deal with my addiction, and I'm doing a lot of therapy to deal with the addiction, plus this terrible loss. It's all just beginning to turn my mind around. Today, I'm looking forward to doing things with my family (2 sons), and FINALLY going out for a walk. I've been holed-up in my room when not working, so my goal for the weekend is to GET OUT as much as possible.

    Thanks for all the help and support. I hope everyone here has a good weekend.
    Jackie

  25. #25
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Forum question

    I have a question unrelated to my thread here, but more in general about this forum. I tried to post something early this morning on someone else's thread. My post went into moderation, and has not yet appeared, another post on the same thread simply disappeared. I didn't swear, I just talked about related issues and mentioned how much I'd used in the past. I looked at the rules and can't see what I did wrong. Anyone have any ideas on why this happened? Will a moderated or removed post ever re-appear?
    Thanks!
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  26. #26
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    I have a question unrelated to my thread here, but more in general about this forum. I tried to post something early this morning on someone else's thread. My post went into moderation, and has not yet appeared, another post on the same thread simply disappeared. I didn't swear, I just talked about related issues and mentioned how much I'd used in the past. I looked at the rules and can't see what I did wrong. Anyone have any ideas on why this happened? Will a moderated or removed post ever re-appear?
    Thanks!
    Good Morning, Jackie!

    It sounds like group and therapy is helping you. I'm so sorry about the loss of your husband. I'm glad that you're sharing some of the things that are going on with you and probably have added to the abuse of your meds. That's the place to start. Secluding ourselves is common and becomes a way of life. We get up and do what we absolutely have to do and then lock ourselves up and try to sleep our lives away. What a way to live but we have all done it. Time to loosen those shackles and begin to live again. Get out! Anywhere. Go for a walk, do errands, anything. I used to get in my car, find some of what used to be my favorite music, turn the CD player up as loud as I could stand it and drive. I'd find myself singing at the top of my lungs (not pretty, I might add). I loved it!

    In regard to your recent posts that went missing. You may not have done a thing wrong. It sometimes happens and I just chalk it up to a glitch in the system. You may have noticed by now that I'm wordy. lol I wrote two posts yesterday that appeared to have posted but as soon as I left that particular thread they was gone. I've been around here long enough to know that I didn't say or do anything wrong. If you really violate any of the rules and a post is taken down, there is usually a message left by the moderators saying "deleted" and the reason, like swearing for instance. With repeated violations or a serious infraction (like trying to exchange personal contact information) a member can be banned for 10 days. That means that you'd be able to read but you won't be able to post. At this point in your recovery, you don't need that so just be mindful.

    You're doing great, by the way. Take advantage of all the help that you're getting. Just soak it in and even the things that may seem pointless to you now, may come in handy later on.

    Have a good day and get out of the house! I'm sure your sons will be delighted that you are rearing your head and beginning to rejoin the living. Invite them to dinner? That will keep you busy for awhile. Do your best to resist going to bed so early. I know it sometimes is just easier to end the day but maybe begin by doing your shopping in the evening. Anything but going to bed. You'll get there. I can tell because you are recognizing the things that aren't helping you change things up. Now you have to figure out how you're going to do just that. Rome wasn't built in a day. Just a small change at a time will get you closer to your goal of living a happier and healthier life. Go for it!

    Peace,

    Cat

  27. #27
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catrina View Post
    Good Morning, Jackie!

    It sounds like group and therapy is helping you. I'm so sorry about the loss of your husband. I'm glad that you're sharing some of the things that are going on with you and probably have added to the abuse of your meds. That's the place to start. Secluding ourselves is common and becomes a way of life. We get up and do what we absolutely have to do and then lock ourselves up and try to sleep our lives away. What a way to live but we have all done it. Time to loosen those shackles and begin to live again. Get out! Anywhere. Go for a walk, do errands, anything. I used to get in my car, find some of what used to be my favorite music, turn the CD player up as loud as I could stand it and drive. I'd find myself singing at the top of my lungs (not pretty, I might add). I loved it!

    In regard to your recent posts that went missing. You may not have done a thing wrong. It sometimes happens and I just chalk it up to a glitch in the system. You may have noticed by now that I'm wordy. lol I wrote two posts yesterday that appeared to have posted but as soon as I left that particular thread they was gone. I've been around here long enough to know that I didn't say or do anything wrong. If you really violate any of the rules and a post is taken down, there is usually a message left by the moderators saying "deleted" and the reason, like swearing for instance. With repeated violations or a serious infraction (like trying to exchange personal contact information) a member can be banned for 10 days. That means that you'd be able to read but you won't be able to post. At this point in your recovery, you don't need that so just be mindful.

    You're doing great, by the way. Take advantage of all the help that you're getting. Just soak it in and even the things that may seem pointless to you now, may come in handy later on.

    Have a good day and get out of the house! I'm sure your sons will be delighted that you are rearing your head and beginning to rejoin the living. Invite them to dinner? That will keep you busy for awhile. Do your best to resist going to bed so early. I know it sometimes is just easier to end the day but maybe begin by doing your shopping in the evening. Anything but going to bed. You'll get there. I can tell because you are recognizing the things that aren't helping you change things up. Now you have to figure out how you're going to do just that. Rome wasn't built in a day. Just a small change at a time will get you closer to your goal of living a happier and healthier life. Go for it!

    Peace,

    Cat
    Hi Cat,
    Thanks for checking in, and the advice/support. Today I managed to get out with the dog for a walk. Something that hasn't happened in a couple of months, so I felt great about that. And I'm cooking dinner, something I've only managed to do occasionally, so I'm going to count that as a victory too.

    Music is huge for me as well. I crank it up loud and it helps me when the emotional stuff is getting too much, and also to help me feel emotions that I need to feel. I love my tunes.

    I'm so grateful you and Ricky both helped me to see that I might need a longer taper at this dose for a while. Even though it was only a .5 reduction, I think the half-life of the higher level of subs was obviously still in my system helping me. Over the past few days taking 2/2 has been just enough, if I had dropped and stayed there I really would have felt it. It hadn't occurred to me that the high level of subs I was taking over the past few weeks were still in my system, but of course they are. I'll have to keep that in mind as I taper. I'm thinking about staying at a level for 2 weeks or even 4, to let the high-life fade more??? Maybe that doesn't make sense??? I don't know. Do you know of a thread, or person who's still here who has done a longer taper than the standard Robert Plan? I read Randy's thread and he'd gotten down to the low dose before he started on here. But maybe someone could describe a longer taper plan, or tell me why that would not be a good idea. Feel free to point me to a thread if you want, I'll also do some searching myself.

    Have a great weekend all,
    Jackie
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-17-2017 at 04:59 PM.

  28. #28
    Jackie76 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Tapering

    Well I read quite a few posts and didn't really come across anything that made me think I should stay at a dose for much longer than the suggested 4-7 days. So that's what I'll stick with, unless I truly can't get stable, but I think that part seems to be as much mental as physical in many cases. So I'm going to spend one more day at 2/2, then drop to 1.75/1.75. I've had some slight cravings at 2/2, wanting to take more sub, but I haven't. I'm back to thinking it's mental.

    Have a good evening all.
    J
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  29. #29
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie76 View Post
    Well I read quite a few posts and didn't really come across anything that made me think I should stay at a dose for much longer than the suggested 4-7 days. So that's what I'll stick with, unless I truly can't get stable, but I think that part seems to be as much mental as physical in many cases. So I'm going to spend one more day at 2/2, then drop to 1.75/1.75. I've had some slight cravings at 2/2, wanting to take more sub, but I haven't. I'm back to thinking it's mental.

    Have a good evening all.
    J
    Hi Jackie,

    All of what you are feeling is you just settling into and getting used to what it feels like. We become so accustomed to getting a buzz that will tell us that we've taken the dose of whatever it is that we're taking is enough. Here's where it gets a little tricky with subs. I never used subs but I can relate. After I had detoxed and needed something for pain, I used Aleve for my back issues and Excedrin for headaches. In the beginning, I was gobbling them and swearing because they weren't doing any good. Then, I realized that I wasn't giving this over the counter stuff a fair chance. One day I took my Aleve and after an hour I sat myself down and became still. OK, Cat time to get honest. I took a few minutes to REALLY evaluate how I felt. Huh. Not perfect, but I noticed that the Aleve really did give me some relief...minus the buzz. This exercise really helped me to sort out how I felt versus how I thought I should feel. This might work for you too so that you can sort out what is really physical and what is mental. Once you're able to get a handle on that you'll know if you're fighting some real physical discomfort or if it's your head playing games with you.

    As far as the length of your sub therapy and taper, there are some valid reasons to take longer than what might be necessary. There are members who intentionally took longer than they may have needed because they didn't feel safe enough, strong enough to be on their own. Randy, for one has often said that because he abused for so long he felt the need to stay on the subs long enough to really learn how to live sober. He was just too afraid of relapsing. Others who were on subs longer are Bette (Iluvtosmile), Ming, Uncle Leo, Dave Peerson to name a few. I know there are others but these come to mind.

    For you, Jackie just go with the flow. Continue your taper as planned. There may be times that you'll want to stay at a dose for a bit longer than you might need to and that's OK. Once you're stable after a reduction, sometimes you just might need a few days in a row of feeling good before you subject yourself to a reduction and feeling a bit off for a couple of days. There's nothing wrong with that so long as you don't become too complacent and stay at any one dose for too long. There may be times too, especially when you get to a really low dose that you might want to make smaller reductions. Ming reduced by only 10% and that worked for her. As long as you're moving in the right direction, how long it takes is less important. If I were you, I'd approach this and do the best I could with 25% reductions every four or five days. Just keep moving in the right direction. Once you're down to a really low dose, say .50 or .25/day you just might decide to stay put right there for awhile so that you are more confident that once you drop the crutches you'll be able to do this on your own. I'd much rather have this taper take you a year than to have it take 10 weeks only to relapse. No sense in guessing how you'll feel 2 months from now. One day at a time. Right? Right.

    Peace,

    Cat
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  30. #30
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Jackie
    Welcome!
    If i were you, i would stop thinking so much about altering the taper. There is no good reason to spend 4 weeks on a dose. In fact, it will only prolong the detox since each dose u take can stay in the system for 72 hours! Thus, the longer u take it, the more u have inside you! Sub is a funny drug in that "less is more." We all felt better at lower doses.
    The original Robert325 taper plan does allow for some personal adjustments. However, staying on one dose for a month is more of a maintenance plan than a taper. This is problematic in that the build up of sub, over time, causes damage. For instance, Uncleleo was on sub therapy for 3 years at 16mg daily. His taper reflected the long usage and was difficult. I know that some folks took their time tapering but they are the exceptions, not the norm. Sub should be used at the lowest effective dose for the shortest time possible to be honest!
    There will always be some pain and discomfort in any taper. However, the goal is to be free and it's important to keep that goal in mind! We are here to help. We've been through it and are here to offer support and hope.
    You can do this! I'm 67 and i made it through. You can too! Post when u can!

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