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Out of the military with numerous injurie. Please help with my upcoming sub program!!
  1. #1
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Default Out of the military with numerous injurie. Please help with my upcoming sub program!!

    Hello,


    Before I begin, I have read many threads here where this community has helped so many people in so many different cases. I really hope some of you guys might be able to help me. I have a few problems, and am going to try and fix them at the end of the month. I will try and put this all in as few words as possible.

    After school (collage) I decided to enlist in the military. I ended up doing 3 tours. My last one, I nearly lost my life. I was actually declared dead. I was shot in the spine and I have some shrapnel around parts of my back. I was in the hospital for several months in Germany as well as in rehab. I was in good shape, I was a semi pro body builder, an all round athlete, and it great overall health. However, I did have an anxiety problem and I was born with some back problems as well. But had it all under control.

    Fast forward a few years. I am no longer in the military, I got married and began working. My wife was a witch, she married me for nothing more than to get US citizenship. I wasted 7 years of my life on someone who had no intention on raising a family with me. I was lied to and I became an emotional wreck. That was just icing on the cake…my mind was all ready a mess from some horrific experiences before the military, than watching my closest friends get killed in front of me, getting diagnosed with PTSD and a few other issues.

    My life seemed to come to an end. I had no job, I am partially handicapped, I don't have my wife at my side anymore, I pushed all my family and friends away from me, I am a loner. I live alone. I dine alone. I VERY rarely meet up with old friends. It's nice to do so, but sometimes seeing old faces trigger bad emotional responses. Now on to my main problem.

    My back problems are VERY VERY complicated. I've been operated on 4 times. And each time, I just got worst. My doctors have my on extremely high levels of opiates, they want to operate on me again….but this time they told me I risk becoming paralyzed if the surgery doesn't take. And to be honest, for the very first time in my life….I'm scared beyond control. I have been heavily medicated for 2 years now, it's the only way I can walk, feel my feet, live more of a normal life.

    I now have a heavy addiction to opiates. I'm at a point where I have to take extremely high doses to get relief. Doses higher than what my doctor prescribes. When my scrips run out, I get other opiates to help with my pain. But now, even if I'm not in pain….I need to take them because if I don't, I get sick right away. So I'm dependent upon them. It's been over two years, I need to stop. I tried stopping 6 months ago with subs, I did a 10 day detox. Everything was a blur in life. I stopped the opiates, and finished the subs. Than I had an accident and fell down a VERY long flight of stairs. I didn't break anything, but I was stuck to the floor for 4 hours before I could get help. I thought I was honestly going to die….again. I made it to a phone, called an ambulance, and went to the ER.

    The pain I was in was a 10/10. I could not eat, talk, NOTHING….the pain just took over my whole body and mind. I couldn't do anything but just lay in bed. I was nothing but dead meat. And what did I do? Got back on the opiates again. It was actually incredible, I want from a 10 to a 2 in just 10 minutes. So I am now back on HIGH doses of opiates. A few kinds, one being hydromorphone….the other, well…I "forgot" what it's called. Please, not everyone understands this. Some people use these drugs for recreational purposes. I use them simply to try and feel like a normal person. I just want my life back. I gave up on help from those at the VA.

    So in about 3 weeks, I am going to start a sub detox program again. Last time was hell….I know how to do it, I spent days researching and reading. I know about the COWS scale and when to induce and what sups OTC I should take, etc. I decided to move somewhere far away and live in a secluded area. I no longer want opiates in my life. I have trouble focusing, concentrating, working, doing everything. My entire life is a total disaster because of my past troubles and all I've endured. Everything from war to wife to wounds of all sorts.

    I guess what I really want to know is how I can make the WD sides easier on me. What I went through last time was hell….and swore I would never pick up another opiate again. But after my accident falling down the stairs because I couldn't feel my feet…I made the mistake and started up again. And now that I am getting ready to do the sub program again…I am ever so scared of the sides and the WD. I really don't know if I will be able to manage it. Part of me has given up…I know that sounds bad, but thinking of going through this again is driving me crazy and scared out of my mind. I will never be one to "throw in the towel" and do something stupid to myself, but I was hoping there might be some new methods to aid in the WD process?

    I was told if I ran a testosterone (steroids) cycle, it would help with the WD sides. I don't know if that is true. I was told that inducing endorphins in my brain will help. Sex for example….I hear that can aid in the process. Have not dated or seen another woman since my wife left me, not sure if I'll be able to find a partner when I look and feel the way one does when in WD. I guess I could call an old "friend" that would "help". Not really the kind of guy that calls lady companions off of an escort service….but if will help. I was told laughter helps make endorphins….so do I watch comical movies? I heard exercise also helps in a MAJOR way…but last time, I was shaking and sweating and had the chills….I couldn't train, and I don't think I could become sexually active when I am in that state.

    I wrote a bit much….any more ideas on how to make this detox easier on me would be a great help. Perhaps there are some new methods I have not heard of??? I refuse to do this crazy surgery and risk being put in a wheel chair for the rest of my life. I'd rather live with the pain all day….just get used to it I suppose. Thank you.

    PP
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-04-2016 at 11:20 PM.

  2. #2
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Welcome. You've come to the right place. No ONE is here to judge you or your pain or suffering. We all know all too well.

    You've done what you've had to do just to stay alive, to manage. Obviously I don't know the specifics of your back problems, but I've had some pretty nasty stomach problems myself that brought me to a 10/10 several times where I couldn't even speak or move - only pray for relief. And a lot of us have felt the need to retreat over time, and most are no war heroes. So you'll have plenty of support here no matter what you decide.

    That all being said - and others more expert will be able to help better than I - trying to go and move far away and toss in some test and a lady friend. Man, you could be one of the lucky ones that cruises through, but from your story, it sounds like you're going to be in for a whole new fight ahead to reclaim your life. So unless you've got a REALLY good doc who is prepared to admin the testosterone, might want to wait on that one (no sure how old you are?).

    So this sub "program" you're talking about, is it a residential? A full group program? We don't want you falling down the stairs again out in the boonies with no one around. So maybe first thing first, is there a decent VA type place that will help you? And how much opes are you on daily right now just to get through a day? Are they the short acting?

    Wha do you think Mingy? A sub switch a good idea? Let's hear some more details and hopefully help you through this. We've all felt very very alone at times and found some solace and relief around here, I hope you can as well

  3. #3
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Thank you for your reply sir. Lets see...I am being fed about 32mg of dilaudid from my docs. The longer acting stuff gets me sick, I break out in rashes, these are one of the few they tried giving me that helped, but didn't give me such bad side effects. I HATE HATE that I have to take them every 6 hours though. I only sleep 4 hours a night and usually wake up from nightmares every night. I take Rozerem to help me try and stay aslep...but I still awake. I am also on 8mg of Alprazolam ED....been so for over 20 years, but I try to take 4-6mg ED....depending on how I feel. If I don't take it...or not enough, I have panic attacks that end up putting me in the hospital. It's happened more times than I have fingers.

    My sub program will be done at my doctors office under his supervision. Last time I did it on my own....it worked, but after my accident, I got back on. That was a big mistake....but I just wanted relief and to feel normal. But now I'm back on the leash again. I also take other slightly longer lasting opiates....I know I shouldn't be doing that, but I have come to a point in my life where I would do anything for relief. Everything short of an operation that could possibly end up putting me in a wheel chair. I won't risk that. However, I have decided to cut the opiates again. Because like I said, I'm packing my stuff up and am going to move to a remote and desolate location. Can't really go to a local doctor and pharmacy every month for a refill of narcotics. That, and I want to move away from the temptation of using other meds to help with my pain. I've talked to others about some of my issues, and some thing I chose to use these opiates for rec purposes. That couldn't be further than the truth.

    Subs worked for me last time...I'm on more opiates now, and it's going to be a battle for sure. I fought many battles in my life, but the battle to kick opiates last time was one of the hardest of them all. That's why I am asking if there is anything more I can do that might be new to help me when in WD. I mentioned I was an athlete and a body builder, I have used anabolic steroids in the past and I often felt very euphoric. I know that the more endorphins that my body produces will help me. I even read where some guy would actually cut himself with a razor to cause pain so that endorphins would release and help him with his WD. NO...I am not about to start cutting myself to help me in WD in case you are asking.

    I just want to hit every option possible for easier WD process. Sex, lifting, comedy, television, trying to keep my mind focused and busy. I don't drink, do drugs....well, rec drugs aside from what I take for my pain, no smoking, no coffee, I was and still am a health nut. I know once I start using the gym again, I will start to feel better. But when in WD...I'm crippled and can barely move. I think about what I went through last time, and the thought of fighting the same battle again is just....I can't find the words. I gave it all I had, and it worked. I just honestly don't know if I have the will and energy to do it again. Not a day goes by that I don't kick myself in the head for starting again after my accident when I fell down the stairs. Again...pardon my rant. Thank you one and all. Sorry....


    PP

  4. #4
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Sounds pretty rough buddy. But you seem like a very very tough person, just like many others on here. That Dialadid, just like the sub, can sure be a double edged sword. I've had to go on it a few times while hospitalized myself. Pretty amazing how instant that relief can be in the moment. Esp when you're a 12 out of 10 on the pain scale.

    So if your back is legit severe pain with no pain meds, let's assume you're off everything, how will you manage the pain? Just trying to understand your plan here - because right now with the dialadid you're on a much shorter acting opiate, that while horrible and miserable to get out of your system, may actually be better than the drawn out agony of the very long acting sub? I've detox'd from both and would pay very good money to do only the dialadid one over again. But we're all different so don't let me dissuade you, just something to think about, especially if you're planning on going out "into the wild." Will you have someone out there to pick you up off the stairs? Hang in there buddy.

  5. #5
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleLeo View Post
    Sounds pretty rough buddy. But you seem like a very very tough person, just like many others on here. That Dialadid, just like the sub, can sure be a double edged sword. I've had to go on it a few times while hospitalized myself. Pretty amazing how instant that relief can be in the moment. Esp when you're a 12 out of 10 on the pain scale.

    So if your back is legit severe pain with no pain meds, let's assume you're off everything, how will you manage the pain? Just trying to understand your plan here - because right now with the dialadid you're on a much shorter acting opiate, that while horrible and miserable to get out of your system, may actually be better than the drawn out agony of the very long acting sub? I've detox'd from both and would pay very good money to do only the dialadid one over again. But we're all different so don't let me dissuade you, just something to think about, especially if you're planning on going out "into the wild." Will you have someone out there to pick you up off the stairs? Hang in there buddy.
    As bad of an experience as it was, the subs were able to get me to cut my opiates. There is NO WAY I will use them for any longer than 2 weeks unless I do a long taper of the stuff. When I first did it, I did it on my own and only had a limited amount of subs to work with so I was not able to use the ideal doses, I had to work with what I had. THIS TIME...I will be working with my doc, I will be induced in his office, monitored for a while....given some to take home as well as a prescription to follow. I was practically out of the woods on a 10 day plan...I think that with the right amounts and some extra pro help, it will be a little easier. But again, some of these docs only know what they learned from the sub class they had to take. I'm looking for different methods to help ease my way when in WD. I was like a caged beast when I was in WD....I wanted to destroy everything around me and just get better and rid myself of the pain and be able to feel my legs/feet/back again.

    You asked about my plan. Well....I am HOPING that once I am off the opiates, I will be in slightly better condition. I can't say for sure, but I am hoping my body as adapted a little to the problems that I have. I walk with a bit of a limp...and after having done so for so long, my doc told me after my last X-Rays that I have rubbed away a good amount of the bone on my hip because of the limp. So I try my best not to walk with the limp, but doing so does cause some discomfort. I'm trying though. As far as medication, I was told that there are some newer non opiate medications that are not habit forming that might be able to help. I was told a lot of new medication is now available. Because once I kick this >>>> again, I'm never going to touch it again. If I come to a point where I NEED to have it....I'd rather just throw in the towel and call it a day. I am getting ready for one more final battle in this war of mine. I'm trying to arm myself with all the knowledge and all the sups needed to make the war a little easier for me to fight. That's why I asked if running a testosterone course and a large B12 course will help me any? I did some homework, and I got some conflicting answers. And to be honest, I don't know if my doctor will have an answer for me. He may have an "idea", but I'm looking for something conclusive. I will do my best to work out to get those endorphins up and running. I'll TRY to find a fellow female to keep me "occupied" so to speak. If not....well, I guess there are other ways to get around that. Last time I did this, I was all on my own. I didn't want to have anyone see me. I didn't want to talk to anyone until I was out of the woods. I will probably hop on a plane and check into a hotel someplace and ride it out there. Like I said, looking for everything possible to make this final fight easier on me....because last time, it was sheer hell. Granted, I was working with half the amount of subs most protocols called for, but it eventually started to work after day 5. I'll be stocked with benzos and most every other OTC med. Just not sure if I should start a test regiment. I need to figure this out soon because I can run long ester testosterone that takes 2-3 weeks to take effect, or I can run short or no ester testosterone that can work right away or within a day or two. I might use some other anabolics as well if need be...

    I can deal with this mentally, but it's the physical aspect that challenges me. The shakes, the chills, the RLS, the sweats, not eating, going to the bathroom every 30 minutes. Until the subs take over and calm me down a bit....it's best I'm left alone. If you have anything to help contribute....any ammo I can use for this upcoming battle, I'm all ears. Thanks!


    PP

  6. #6
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey Pete - the good news is you've taken the hardest step already, the decision to get off all this >>>>. So you should be very proud of yourself. If you want to go try to ride it out somewhere - I know that worries a lot of us - but just make sure you've got someone you trust that's at least a phone call and a drive away (and figure out where the local hospital or urgent care is ahead of time, just in case).

    A couple things though that I wanted to add that I wish someone had told me before my journey - 1. if you REALLY want off opiates and you know it's gonna suck and your plan is just to grin and bear it - not sure the sub is the right med for you. For one - you're really just switching from one opiate to another, one addiction to another addiction. The positive of the sub, as many will tell you, is if you're trying to just start cleaning up bad habits, get yourself going with a job, therapy, etc., then the sub can sometimes help stabilize you with those things before you start a probably substantially long taper based on your history. But goin off into no where and checkin in to a hotel, not sure the sub is meant for that. (it will stay in you longer than you can ever imagine once it builds up in you).

    The other thing is - and this is really hard to see when you're already on some pain meds and thinking clearly is already tough enough - but your body is gonna be going through a lot of stress repairing itself. So if you want to try some B-12 or other basic things, that's one thing. But introducing outside hormones, test, or deca, or whatever, your system is already haywire. Maybe get through the hard part first, then get some labs and see where your test levels are before you introduce an outside source, and if you're feeling up to having a "female friend" hey go for it, but it could be a little while before you're ready for that.

    Can you taper the dialadid with some vitamins and maybe in your case some benzos? Just make sure you're clear, going from dialadid to sub, you're not going off opiates, and that's why it "worked" last time after a few days adjustment. But maybe with the underlying pain problems you do have, a reg sub regimen will give you enough of your life back to just live on? I don't know. A lot of that prob depends on your back, etc. Hang in there, we're rootin for you. Keep posting.

  7. #7
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Hi!

    Like I said, I'm on 8mg of Xanax a day. Been so for over 20 years. That is one thing I can't stop. I tried to taper off it many times, I was actually on clonazapam and diazapam at the same time...so I was on 3 benzos at once. They were feeding me all sorts of stuff just to stop me from having these massive panic attacks that would put me in the hospital.

    Moving forward. Like I said, I used subs before and it worked for the most part. I didn't have as much as I needed to do it properly, I used what I had on hand and couldn't get more. My silly but was too embarrassed to go to a doctor. This time, my doc will induce me in his office, and send me on my way with a script.

    Seeing as how I was able to get off the opiates with subs, I'm confident I will be able to do it again. I just cringe at the fight I have ahead of me....seeing how it's a fight I all ready fought. I can't believe I let myself get back on them....I mean, I remember being curled up on the bottom of the stairs for almost 5 hours in sheer pain. I had nobody to help me. I couldn't call for help, I just wanted to die at that moment. When I was finally able to inch my way to a phone and call 911...I was taken to the hospital, they patched me up, and sent me home a few days later. When I was home, the pain was there and back with a vengeance. I couldn't feel my feet, the area where the bullet had hit my spine was all numb and I had pinz and needles all over my lower back, legs, and feet. I was tossing and turning all night, I couldn't sleep, I kept waking up with tears all over my face. So I gave in....I reached for my medication, took a strong dose, and all my pain went away. I felt normal, I could feel my body parts, I wasn't a nervous wreck, I was calm, focused, I was "normal".

    In light of how I felt, I had told myself that this might be something I may need to use for the rest of my life. Well....at the time it seemed like the right idea. That is no longer the case. I no longer want to be dependent on this junk. If I miss a dose, I get sick a nausea comes at me....I get the shakes, etc. It's horrible. Not to mention how much money I spend on "extra" meds to help me. That's another reason I am packing my stuff and moving....I no longer want to be around where I might be tempted to go and get something I really shouldn't. Again, all I want out of life right now is to be back to a normal physical state. This problem ruined my marriage, I no longer have a job, I don't have kids, I pushed away my friends and family, I would have major mood swings, etc. etc. I don't want to be that person. I would rather live with the pain if that is my only option.

    This is the bottom line. Subs let me kick it once before. I want to do it again. I have NO intention on using them for any longer than 2-3 weeks....PERHAPS a week or two longer on a VERY VERY low dose to taper off properly. I've read of a few methods on the taper. I have no intention of switching from one opiate to another. Once the subs take effect and I no longer am in WD and start feeling better. I will stop the subs.

    As for the anabolics. I used to use them rather often when body building...and I was always in such a good mood when using them. I never had "roid rage" or anything of the sort. I used these anabolics on and off for a good 20 or so years....as well as human growth hormone witch can give you an overall sense of well being. MY GUESS is that this will help me as well. I can't see any harm. These are compounds and hormones I have used many times before.

    I don't want to be on a regular sub regimen....I want to be opiate clear. When it comes time to deal with my pain, that's another battle I will have to fight. But I'm not going to fight both battles at once....one at a time. A few docs told me that if I can develop certain muscles in my lower back, I might experience less pain. Thus, my reason for thinking of using anabolics. Several of my docs told me that if I were to develop my back muscles back to where they were, work on the muscles on my core and obliques, I might very well see a drastic decrease in pain. Am a sure? NO. Will I try? YES. So that's my plan. I am actually going to start taking the anabolics in a few days, raise my testostrone at the very least. Maybe give me some more energy to go to the gym.

    And yes, when I plan to lock the door and do this...I will have someone to call just in case I need to. I won't be very far from an ER. I really don't think it will come to that, but best to play it safe than sorry.

    Again, my main reason for posting here is to see what else I can possibly do to help the WD symptoms easier on me. I listed a few things I have come up with when doing research. If anyone can maybe come up with lists of things to do, products to use, when to use them, how much to use, etc....that would be a great help. I want to have everything I need in my arsenal.

    Again, thank you all for your time and help.



    PP
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  8. #8
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Sounds like it's coming together for you Pete. You got people here, an emergency line you can call. You know your body and mind better than anyone - and man sounds like you've already really suffered enough.

    And we all know what you mean about sometimes just needed to be "away" from even the ability to make that phone call or what have you. I went and spent some time with my brother and his fam in another state myself for a few weeks and it did help a lot.

    And if you have a good sub doc watching out for you, that will be good. Sounds like it's the step you need. Stock up on all the Thomas recipe stuff and Immodium, you know the drill.

    The only sentence I was curious about was: "Seeing as how I was able to get off the opiates with subs, I'm confident I will be able to do it again." What does that mean? Because you know you just switched opiates right? Like talking about your benzos - subs are the clonazepam compared to the Xanax. Not quite the immediate punch, but a slightly slowly and longer acting med. You can def make the switch though, and it should help clear your head to taper. And with all the real pain you have, you and the doc will have the chance to make adjustments.

    If there's any extra advice you'd prolly get from long timers around here, it's sometimes less is more with sub, and it pretty much tops out at 8mg. I screwed this one up myself and still regret it - being on 16mg for a while and it set me back quite a bit. The first few days of the lower doses may suck, not gonna lie, but it's worth it, and it's really not too bad. You won't feel "normal" maybe, but you won't feel like "god, no mas, I tap out, gimme me meds."

    Hope that makes some sense and you can get yourself moving in the right direction.

  9. #9
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Ugh...my post vanished. I will have to type it again when I get back home. Darn....

  10. #10
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Hey….thanks again for the help. Yeah, I need to find that list of all the OTC stuff I need. I still have a lot of left over stuff from my last time, but what to make sure I don't forget anything and need to leave the hotel to go and get it.

    You asked about when I said, "Seeing as how I was able to get off the opiates with subs, I'm confident I will be able to do it again." What does that mean? Because you know you just switched opiates right? When I said that, I mean that the subs were able to let me quit taking the pain meds that were prescribed to me….as well as other opiates that were not prescribed to me. I didn't switch one for the other, I only used the subs as a short term tool. I never stayed on them. I had less than 30mg to work with. After I used most of what I had….I think I ended up using 26mg TOTAL and had 4mg left at the end. I probably should of used that 4mg extra that I had on day one.

    Last time, on day one…I used 6mg I believe. I think this time I am going to use 8mg….perhaps 10 if it will make me more comfortable on the worst of all days. The first 3 are hell…I might not even sleep during the entire time. I will try….but I doubt it. Maybe with the extra few MGs of sub, I might be able to be a bit more comfortable and sleep. I'll have to talk to my doctor about it.

    16mg of sub will be too much. I was doing……"ok" with just 4mg at the time, but took another 2mg because I was not feeling that well. So 6mg and I was just able to get by….and with that noted, I think I should induce anywhere between 8-10mg on day one. I'm on higher doses than I was last time….I'm taking less this month, but don't think that will matter all that much,

  11. #11
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    About to start in a few days....man I'm a nervous wreck. Can someone please be so kind as to provide me another list of all the other things I need that would help me? I had a list...misplaced it, making a new one. Thank you...



    PP

  12. #12
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Peterpan
    Whoa! Way too high of an induction dose IMHO! Ask Randy.
    The taper plan begins induction at a very low dose of .5mg.
    People kicking methadone (like i did) don't even need 8-10 mg sub. Too high!
    Less is more with subs.
    I suggest u reach out to Randy specifically for dosage advice. I did and he really helped me a lot.
    Read The taper sheet again and understand that the more subs u take now, is the more u have to quit later. People forget.
    Check in when u can. Rooting for ya!

  13. #13
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanMan View Post
    About to start in a few days....man I'm a nervous wreck. Can someone please be so kind as to provide me another list of all the other things I need that would help me? I had a list...misplaced it, making a new

    PP
    Peterpan
    Imodium. Plenty of water. Sleepytime tea. Vitamins. A working tv.
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  14. #14
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming23 View Post
    Hey Peterpan
    Whoa! Way too high of an induction dose IMHO! Ask Randy.
    The taper plan begins induction at a very low dose of .5mg.
    People kicking methadone (like i did) don't even need 8-10 mg sub. Too high!
    Less is more with subs.
    I suggest u reach out to Randy specifically for dosage advice. I did and he really helped me a lot.
    Read The taper sheet again and understand that the more subs u take now, is the more u have to quit later. People forget.
    Check in when u can. Rooting for ya!
    Thanks....last time I started with 6mg....well, first 4mg than several hours later another 2mg. So I am thinking of starting at 6 or 8mg for the first dose.

    This is what I dug up and think I need....am I missing anything?

    Gabapentin
    Clonidine
    Tylenol and Alieve
    Various vitamins (B12, VC, multi, etc.)
    Stay VERY hydrated
    Force feeding (well...eat as much as possible if at all)
    Hot tub 3X a day
    Cimetidine
    Loperamide (Imodium) (****dose suggestion???****)


    And as for testosterone. I got my hands on some "NO ESTER TEST"...meaning, unlike most traditional forms of testosterone, this stuff does not have an ester attached to the molecule and begins working right away. I have not heard if it will help or not, but I do plan on using a regiment of testosterone once I am done...so I might as well start during the process. Thoughts?? UGH....I actually have been tossing and turning at night thinking about this battle I have in front of me. I'm about 65 hours away...ugh, I try not to think about it. But it's hard.

    Any ideas of what TV series I should watch and get lost in to help pass the time....keep my mind occupied as the clock just ticks and ticks? Thanks fellas...

  15. #15
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming23 View Post
    Hey Peterpan
    Whoa! Way too high of an induction dose IMHO! Ask Randy.
    The taper plan begins induction at a very low dose of .5mg.
    People kicking methadone (like i did) don't even need 8-10 mg sub. Too high!
    Less is more with subs.
    I suggest u reach out to Randy specifically for dosage advice. I did and he really helped me a lot.
    Read The taper sheet again and understand that the more subs u take now, is the more u have to quit later. People forget.
    Check in when u can. Rooting for ya!
    I agree with Ming, way too much sub! When you start your induction you start with .5mg sub and the increments of .25mg every 1.5 hours until you're stable on the lowest possible amount of sub! Read this thread that I posted a link for below? Best of luck! God bless us all!

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone...ood-71120.html
    Ming23 likes this.

  16. #16
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanMan View Post
    Thanks....last time I started with 6mg....well, first 4mg than several hours later another 2mg. So I am thinking of starting at 6 or 8mg for the first dose.

    This is what I dug up and think I need....am I missing anything?

    Gabapentin
    Clonidine
    Tylenol and Alieve
    Various vitamins (B12, VC, multi, etc.)
    Stay VERY hydrated
    Force feeding (well...eat as much as possible if at all)
    Hot tub 3X a day
    Cimetidine
    Loperamide (Imodium) (****dose suggestion???****)


    And as for testosterone. I got my hands on some "NO ESTER TEST"...meaning, unlike most traditional forms of testosterone, this stuff does not have an ester attached to the molecule and begins working right away. I have not heard if it will help or not, but I do plan on using a regiment of testosterone once I am done...so I might as well start during the process. Thoughts?? UGH....I actually have been tossing and turning at night thinking about this battle I have in front of me. I'm about 65 hours away...ugh, I try not to think about it. But it's hard.

    Any ideas of what TV series I should watch and get lost in to help pass the time....keep my mind occupied as the clock just ticks and ticks? Thanks fellas...
    Hey Peterpan
    Don't live up to your peterpan name! Get your head out of the clouds and your feet back on the ground.
    You're Not listening to what we're saying. Your proposed induction dose is Way Too High! I don't care what you did last time; especially since it didn't work & you're back again.
    Tough talk but u seem in need of a wake up.
    Thousands of folks have successfully tapered by adhering to the taper plan as it is written. You are setting yourself up for failure with your insistence on starting at such a high dose.
    Again, i encourage u to reach out to Randy for advice.
    Ricky also suggested u induct at .5mg sub. We are telling u these facts because we want u to succeed. No other reason. We too have walked this path and are sub free now.
    Read the Taper Plan at the top of the forum again. Follow what Robert325 has advised and you'll succeed.
    No amount of supplements will ensure you don't relapse due to discomfort.
    Less is more with subs. People actually feel Better at the lower doses.
    It's good that you want to stop the pills but not good if you sabotage your taper by over-medicating.
    The advice we're offering has been battle-tested, so to speak. Why would u choose to guarantee more suffering for yourself, which is the point!
    Again, reach out to Randy for confirmation of the above. As Randy often states: do this right and you only have to do it once!
    Here for you! The choice is yours. Easy or rough. U pick em.
    UncleLeo likes this.

  17. #17
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Yeah- try to stay low buddy. I had a bad doc and was put on way TOO HIGH a dose for many months and am literally still paying the price for that over a year later since my taper ended up taking so long and being so brutal.

    It is hard tho - trying to be able to make well thought out decisions when that's literally the thing most incapacitated at this point for you. It's like you're required to think clearly when literally by the nature of what is happening your judgment is impaired. So we understand - that's why Ming is trying to help you see more rationally.

    That's good you've got your vitamins. They work better or worse for different people so fingers crossed for you. And FYI if you're able to take 3 hot tubs a day you're prob on too high a dose. Not sure how you'll react to the test. Might want to at least hold off on it at first at least, see how your body is doing. Introducing outside hormones (esp ones that can heighten your whole system response) may be better post sub for recovery if that's what a decent doc is in agreement with for you. But that's great you're prep'ing and taking steps...keep moving forward.
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  18. #18
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    Thanks....I know how important it is to start on low doses. I know it might make you feel better on day one on a higher dose....but like you said, the taper can be painful. The one time I did this before, I was done in about 8 days and used much less sub than I though I would. I didn't have as much sub as my plan had called for, so I was forced to take less to stretch it out. On the flip side, I think that was a good think. Because by day 7-8...I was doing real well. I was still fuzzy and hazy and I was a bit "off"....but FAR better than day one. I'm supposed to go to my doc at 10am in the morning, and he will induce me there. I just want to make sure I am in the worst possible shape when he does. I'm going to not take my PM dose and try to sleep without it....but not sure if that will happen. Obviously I won't take anything, but I fear I won't get any sleep. One more day....and the gloves come off. I'm soooooo dreading this fellas.

  19. #19
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanMan View Post
    Thanks....I know how important it is to start on low doses. I know it might make you feel better on day one on a higher dose....but like you said, the taper can be painful. The one time I did this before, I was done in about 8 days and used much less sub than I though I would. I didn't have as much sub as my plan had called for, so I was forced to take less to stretch it out. On the flip side, I think that was a good think. Because by day 7-8...I was doing real well. I was still fuzzy and hazy and I was a bit "off"....but FAR better than day one. I'm supposed to go to my doc at 10am in the morning, and he will induce me there. I just want to make sure I am in the worst possible shape when he does. I'm going to not take my PM dose and try to sleep without it....but not sure if that will happen. Obviously I won't take anything, but I fear I won't get any sleep. One more day....and the gloves come off. I'm soooooo dreading this fellas.
    PeterPanMan - I"m not sure you're going to reach a 26 or better on the COWS by 10am even if you skip your night dose but hopefully you do? I just hope the doc does this induction the correct way for your sake? You don't want to induct too soon! A short taper on subs will get you through the detox of the initial opiate but if you don't wean off the sub properly then you are going to detox from the sub which is worse than the original detox would of been! It can take days to begin to feel withdrawals from your last dose of subs! I would be very cautious with the sub induction and the amount you induct on! Most doctors have no clue on how to do this properly and that is a fact! I wish you the best of luck, let us know how everything turns out with the doc? Take care... God bless us all!
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  20. #20
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    I just read your whole thread again! I'm not sure that you understand how subs work? You said you quit opiates before by using subs for 8 days? Sub is basically a stronger, long acting opiate! When you induct on subs and if it's "done properly" you will feel better just after a few hours after your induction! Most or all your withdrawal symptoms that you were having before the induction will be gone! You become stable on a certain dosage of subs per day, once stable you begin 25% reductions of the subs every 4-5 days. You need to wean off the subs or you will suffer a detox from the subs! If you induct before you score a minimum 26 on the COWS worksheet you take the chance of going into precipitated withdrawal also if you induct on too much sub you will get sick and feel awful! To me this seems to be the case last time you tried to use the subs because if you inducted properly you would of felt pretty much normal soon after induction with very little to no withdrawal symptoms! I encourage you to read Robert's sub taper plan over and over again until you understand it 100%! I don't want you to suffer if this sub therapy is done incorrectly! Robert's plan is proven with many, many success stories! You know what they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? I wish you well! God bless us all!
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  21. #21
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Peterpan
    Ricky said it best! You def don't want to go through precipitated wds. It happened to some of us (me) and is the worst experience ever!! That's why we're trying to get your attention about your plans. Uncleleo pointed out that we don't make the best decisions since our minds are not clear at the time. Take it from folks who already made some errors and avoid doing the same missteps!
    Good luck w the induction. Stay low (on dose)!!
    Post when u can! Here you go....
    UncleLeo likes this.

  22. #22
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    I know how subs work, I know they are a stronger opiate. Forgive me fellas, I am trying to explain myself the best I can. I'm seeing info left and right and some of it gets a bit confusing. This AM I took my dilaudid and my occasional oxy as the weather really had my back in pain when I woke up. I probably should not have taken my oxy as it has a longer half life...I had just woken up and took it without thinking because I was in such a rush to seek relief from pain. So now my I have a slightly longer acting opiate in my as well as my dilaudid. So I may have to adjust my math here. As of now, if I take nothing more....I will be have gone without ANYTHING for 22 hours. I think that by hour 22...I will be DEEP in WD and probably closer to a 30 on the COWS. I don't think I ever went 22 hours before. BUT...since I took the oxy, it might take some more time. Last time I waited 12 hours and it worked.

    When I first took subs, I started to feel a bit better a few hours after I took 4mg. I was still very uncomfortable, so I believe I took another 2mg if I recall. I did feel a great deal better withing 4-5 hours after taking it. But I was in no way out of the woods.

    Tomorrow is when I am going to get induced and I only took my AM dose today at 12. My appointment is tomorrow at 10. So I am going to do my very very best not to take anything for 22 hours. I remember last time that by the 11th hour I just wanted to jump off a cliff. It was horrific.

    My fear is that I might be waiting too long. 22 hours is A LONG time for me. I know I won't be able to get any sleep tonight. After 8 hrs or so...I really start to feel like >>>>. Is 22 hours too long? I have read that I should wait at least 12 hours with dilaudid, but I took oxy as well as I usually do when the weather is humid and my back swells up...but I want to play it safe, be as sick as possible without doing any damage before I start the sub dose at 10am tomorrow. Right now, I am 19 hours away and I feel fine. But in a few hours...I know I'm in for hell.

    Ricky said above that if I take my PM dose, I might not get to 26 on the COWS sheet by 10 am. If not, should I just hold off on everything for the next 19 hours, or should I take a final dose once before I go....say 14, 15, 16 hours before? Obviously, if I'm not at 26 at the docs office...I won't induce. I'll just sit in a room until I reach that living hell than induce.

    Thoughts? I'm 19 hours away....and just thinking about it is getting me all anxious. Shall I dose once again or just fight it out? If I don't take anything, it will be 22 hours without anything. Please let me know ASAP. THANKS!!!

  23. #23
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    One last thing....I take a heavy dose of benzos every day. Have done so for over 25 years.

    Should I take another dilaudid dose at 8pm tonight? Than I can take my xanax...perhaps an extra 2-4mg to help me stay asleep, along with some more rozerem? This way I can TRY to sleep a bit and sleep thru the first stages of WD? If I dose at 8pm, that will be 14 hours of nothing when I get there at 10am. If I need to, I can wait another hour maybe 2 when I get there. Thoughts? IMHO....I think the first day of waiting for the WD effects to climax to 26 was the most painful. And I believe I waited about 12 hrs....I can't remember.

    If not 8pm...maybe 6pm? Or just tough it out and take NOTHING until I get there tomorrow morning?


    Thanks....

  24. #24
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    So you've already taken Dilaudid, oxy, and benzos so far just today and you're worried about sleeping tonight with follow up benzos already planned?

    Someone more expert at COWS can hopefully do the math for you...but you should be able to sleep pretty decent tonight. Is the plan to get off of all opiates including sub - and at what length of time? Sorry- you prob already explained, I just forget exactly.

  25. #25
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanMan View Post
    One last thing....I take a heavy dose of benzos every day. Have done so for over 25 years.

    Should I take another dilaudid dose at 8pm tonight? Than I can take my xanax...perhaps an extra 2-4mg to help me stay asleep, along with some more rozerem? This way I can TRY to sleep a bit and sleep thru the first stages of WD? If I dose at 8pm, that will be 14 hours of nothing when I get there at 10am. If I need to, I can wait another hour maybe 2 when I get there. Thoughts? IMHO....I think the first day of waiting for the WD effects to climax to 26 was the most painful. And I believe I waited about 12 hrs....I can't remember.

    If not 8pm...maybe 6pm? Or just tough it out and take NOTHING until I get there tomorrow morning?


    Thanks....
    PeterPanMan - It's pretty late now, hopefully you are catching some zzzz's? I would of suggested not taking the night dose of dilaudid and probably skipping or going easy on the xanax as well just until you have inducted on the subs! You don't want to take anything that can affect your COWS score! I hope all goes well for you with the doc and the induction? Give us an update when you can? We're here for you! Take care... God bless us all!

  26. #26
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    waited 24 hours...

    took 4mg sub

    soon later PW kicked in

    sick as a dog

    scared to death...i dono what happened, I waited 24 hours!

    I got on line and read that if you go into pre WD, you can take something to feel better....but it has to be a lot more than normal

    right or wrong, I did...I took about 70mg of dilaidid, i was just able to feel it and i feel a little better now.

    What is my next step? When do I take subs again? How long do I stay in this state of hell?

    I was told for dilaudid, 24 hrs is on the SAFE side. NO NO NO NO!!!!

    I am having bad bad WD right now, cant feel hands,feet, face.....I was going to go to the ER, but I took a large dose, feel a little better, but from what I was told the "feeling better" will only last a small time than I will be back in crazy 10/10 WD pain?

    I tried to play this right....

    PLEASE....tell me what my next move should be? I was vomiting a lot and didn't want to risk throwing the pills up, so I used another route....the fastest.

    How long do I wait to start sub again? Took the last large dose at 8pm tonight. My only guess is that i took a longer acting medication, I am not sure but I may have taken a oxy I had left, it's all I can think of....maybe one was in my tray of medication and took it without realizing?

    HELP! oh Lord this is a nightmare....maybe go to the ER???

  27. #27
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    i have been shot and stabbed a few times....it hurt....but what i feel now is 10000x worst//....only can type one finger. wontt wish this on worst enemy...ratder take another bullett for my felllocountrymen than deal wit thiism. i dont kknow what went wrong....i wAs in hell for 24 hours, i expectedd relif an hr or so aafter the subs,,,,i was for sure past a 26. they didn't want to induce me at the doc bc i was not in such a deeeop enouf WD. I was a 32 accordimg to the COWS>?? Doc was evil!!! Everywhgere i go people thank me for all the blood I spillt...i wuldd die for my brothers, and thiss doc wouldt give me the time of day. All she did wass look at my pupills and said take the script an d go home. I hadd so many questions...about gaba, aboout, clonnidine, lope,....and i hate to say thiss but she didn t want to look me in the face, she wore a burka and had a name that....well, i don't judge, but for the firs timr in my life I felt like i was treated like pedophille or something bc I once wore a uniformm. I'm actually going to call my attourney.....when i can see 1 monitor and not 4 and use more than one finger....I called to talk to her, lleft vm, nobody...nothin.

    Sorry fellas....I''m a wreck, can't think straight....I'm lost. There is no darker hell than where I am, and I've seen hell manny many times....never this daark.

  28. #28
    PeterPanMan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleLeo View Post
    So you've already taken Dilaudid, oxy, and benzos so far just today and you're worried about sleeping tonight with follow up benzos already planned?

    Someone more expert at COWS can hopefully do the math for you...but you should be able to sleep pretty decent tonight. Is the plan to get off of all opiates including sub - and at what length of time? Sorry- you prob already explained, I just forget exactly.

    Sorry I missed this....hope i andswerd everything above

  29. #29
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Yep...all sounds about right. Welcome to the club You've started your journey. Big first step. Sorry it's so miserable. Many here have been there. Hang in there.

    Isn't there a VA or somewhere that someone can take care of you for this? Doesn't sound too good.

  30. #30
    Ricky71 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanMan View Post
    waited 24 hours...

    took 4mg sub

    soon later PW kicked in

    sick as a dog

    scared to death...i dono what happened, I waited 24 hours!

    I got on line and read that if you go into pre WD, you can take something to feel better....but it has to be a lot more than normal

    right or wrong, I did...I took about 70mg of dilaidid, i was just able to feel it and i feel a little better now.

    What is my next step? When do I take subs again? How long do I stay in this state of hell?

    I was told for dilaudid, 24 hrs is on the SAFE side. NO NO NO NO!!!!

    I am having bad bad WD right now, cant feel hands,feet, face.....I was going to go to the ER, but I took a large dose, feel a little better, but from what I was told the "feeling better" will only last a small time than I will be back in crazy 10/10 WD pain?

    I tried to play this right....

    PLEASE....tell me what my next move should be? I was vomiting a lot and didn't want to risk throwing the pills up, so I used another route....the fastest.

    How long do I wait to start sub again? Took the last large dose at 8pm tonight. My only guess is that i took a longer acting medication, I am not sure but I may have taken a oxy I had left, it's all I can think of....maybe one was in my tray of medication and took it without realizing?

    HELP! oh Lord this is a nightmare....maybe go to the ER???


    Sorry to hear all of this! I believe you're gonna have to ride this out and don't take anything else to try to cover it up? I'm gonna paste some of Robert's Sub Taper Plan for you! Next time you induct start at .5mg of sub and follow the rest of Robert's plan as outlined! If you don't do this correctly next time then you are gonna be in the same boat!

    The induction is one of the most critical parts of sub therapy. If a person is not inducted properly they often experience ongoing physical and emotional problems throughout the entire sub therapy process!

    The purpose of the induction is simply to stabilize the patient ending their w/d symptoms. We find this happens most effectively when the patient is inducted in dosing increments where the patient stabilizes at the ”lowest effective dose”!

    For those with a history of using RX pain medications be it in pill form, fentanyl patches, etc I suggest starting the induction with a dose of .5mg and wait for two hours. This allows the patient enough time to ensure they are receiving maximum benefit from the medication prior to taking each additional increment while stabilizing. After the first two hour period we can add another .5mg if needed but we often find that adding .25mg doses every additional 90 minutes or so will allow the patient to stabilize at doses less than 3mg.

    Subs are very powerful and effective when used properly. We have people who have inducted at less than 2mg and we are typically successful with inductions totaling 2-4mg. The people who do best historically are those who begin this therapy at the lowest effective dose. This can only be achieved with an induction process administering minimal amounts of medication at each increment.

    The induction process should last for a period of 4-5 days. The first day is when the patient is initially stabilized. On the second day the induction dose is split into two equal doses as this will help with making tapering easier later in the process. At the end of either three or four days we find that the dose used to stabilize the patient can be reduced by 25% on the following day and this becomes the lowest effective dose. Doing all of this takes 4-5 days depending on the individual. This is where the patient’s dose remains until they begin to taper down the dose.

    Allowing 4-5 days provides ample time to adjust the induction dose as may be required to maintain the stability of the patient. Those patients who don’t stabilize properly have problems throughout their therapy. That is always the case. The amount used to stabilize doesn’t seem to be as important as using the aforementioned process by which the induction is done up to a point as previously mentioned.

    It is imperative the patient be in a state of moderately severe to severe w/d at the time of induction. Otherwise it’s likely the patient will experience precipitated w/d. In short they end up deathly sick. This is another primary reason for beginning with the smallest amount of medication initially to make sure the patient will react desirably. The time required to reach severe w/d after stopping different drugs ( pills >> methadone >> street drugs) varies some but the ABSOLUTE best guide is the COWS worksheet which most drs use some form of anyway. COWS (clinical opioid withdrawal scale) Go to https://www.drugs.com/resources/opioi...wal-record.pdf for the worksheet. If you make sure you’re at a 26 or above accumulatively on the worksheet then you will normally do well with induction if the aforementioned dosing procedure is adhered to. The score of 26 on the COWS worksheet is a minimum. This is a non-negotiable factor that not all drs follow hence they administer large doses of medication attempting to cover up the precipitated w/d.

    ***If a patient finds themselves in precipitated w/d for whatever reason the best thing to do is stop taking the subs immediately and redo the induction as outlined above. Wait until the sickness from precipitated w/d has ended and make sure you have reached the 26 again on the COWS worksheet before taking anything else. DO NOT attempt to take additional suboxone or subutex to cover up the precipitated w/d. You are asking for a hospital stay should you pursue this course of action.***

    The success we have seen to date shows best results are overwhelmingly on the side of using sub short term. We have started to taper in as little as four days and hardly ever over one week following induction. People are being inducted and tapering down to nothing in a matter of about eight weeks average. There are no horror stories from anyone using sub therapy on our forum who use it the way we have suggested from day one.Some allowances have to be made sometimes for those who come to the forum for help following poor previous guidance on using subs properly or following abuse of subs.

    Standard Taper Plan
    The standard taper I used and promote is that if you will reduce by 25% of the total daily dose and maintain that dose for a period of four full days while experiencing minimal to no w/d symptoms it’s safe to reduce again by another 25% and expect the same results. If you experience any overwhelming w/d symptoms during the four day period you can take a .25 mg sliver (depending on your existing dose) and the w/d symptoms usually dissipate immediately. If you require slivers to remain stable at any level you should start over the next day trying to put four days together again. This allows for the long half life of buprenorphine which can be up to 72 hours for most people.

    After I reached .5mg I began a process of skipping days. I would take a dose one day, then skip one day. Then dose again, and then skip two days. Then dose again, and then skip three days. Then dose again, and then skip four days. After four days clean I was finished. The half life has had time to catch up with itself.

    We have found some people, for whatever reason, tend to stress out and suffer anxiety when it comes time to skip days. If that is your experience you can continue the standard 25% taper every four days all the way down to zero in lieu of skipping days if that makes you feel better. Again we are all a little different. The idea is to be successful and the skipping days is not written in stone. That is what worked for me and has worked for most others following this taper plan. But if you need to taper down to nothing instead of skipping days that is certainly a viable and acceptable option.

    The reason for sometimes feeling w/d symptoms is the long half life of buprenorphine, the main drug that is in sub and the generic now available. To be very simple it can take days before we experience the w/d symptoms from sub. So this is why we wait for four days to allow for the half life which can easily be up to 72 hours depending on some variables. When we make it four days without symptoms we should be fine reducing again.

    It’s not uncommon to have some minor side effects from sub as with almost any medication. There can be some depression, sleep problems, anxiety. So we suggest not taking the sub close to bedtime, get some mild to moderate exercise depending on your physical condition, there are things to do that will help lots of things. But stick with the same principles all the way down as far as you are comfortable. We are here to help at that point.

    I hope this helps? If you are having such severe withdrawals and don't think you can ride it out until you can induct again "PROPERLY" on the subs then go to the E.R., be very honest with them about everything you took? What you took, how much and what time? I think the E.R. visit should be the very last resort because I don't know exactly what they can do for you that time itself won't fix? Please follow Robert's plan exactly as outlined! I wish you the best! Good luck... God bless us all!
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-25-2016 at 08:40 PM.

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