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Suboxone induction help
  1. #1
    illmans is offline New Member
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    Default Suboxone induction help

    I need help from anybody that has followed Roberts taper plan or whom have experience with what I'm dealing with.

    For years I used strong opioids and was addicted after three years abstinence, I picked back up again in the form of Kratomthe legal and practically OTC powdered leaf. After a years worth of daily use ~30 grams per day, never missing a dose, I kicked it and remained abstinent another 18 months

    I relapsed and have been taking ~30 grams per day, every day for the last 6 1/2 months.

    The withdrawals are not as severe as that of what I used to be addicted to but none the less horrific and debilitating.

    I have in my possession 3 8mg suboxone strips and this is where I need guidance from anybody that has used Roberts taper, Kratom, or both.

    I've studied the taper plan throughly, but I'm afraid of not having enough sub, depending on how much I need to induce and stabilize.

    I've calculated out that with 24 mg I can induce as high as 1.5 mg and complete so long as I don't make a mistake, cut a strip incorrectly, or worse need more than four days before reducing at one of my drops.

    Knowing that I can take 5 or even 6 days if I have to and have enough sub to complete my taper would be comforting.

    But if there's somebody on here that feels confident that I could induce under 1.5 mg I'd love to hear from you.

    Im looking for advice because I NEED to quit but cannot handle the withdrawal and carry on in life and there's so few studies on Kratom that I'm forced to resort to trial/error and the experience of others.

    To those that aren't familiar with it, it falls somewhere between hydrocodone and codiene in strength and has multiple known alkaloids (4 or 5)that partially agonize the mu opioid receptors, with half-life's that range from 90 minutes up to 4 hours.

    An average dose(of which my habit consists of 5-8 per day, appears to have the closest resemblance to around 20-30 mg hydrocodone for me, and the best anecdotal evidence shows this to be close to accurate though nobody truly knows.

    Additionally it varies in strength due to being non-standardized and unregulated, which makes it very difficult to taper.

    I'm miserable and eager to get off of it. I may be able to acquire more sub, but obviously I'm not betting the farm on it.

    ANY help would be greatly apreciated.
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  2. #2
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Thillman
    Welcome!
    Kratom, eh? Why would you want to get on subs to get off kratom? Seems like overkill. Can you taper lower on the kratom? You might like to reach out to Uncleleo. He also used Kratom.
    You may want to get on a much lower dose of subs than u r proposing. .5 mg to start. The dose you propose would be more appropriate for other drugs, but this is kratom not >>>>>>. Subs are very strong and 1.5 mg subs may not be necessary. The lower the dose, the better for You! I would consider .5 mg to begin increased by .25mg if needed. You should be ok on 1 mg.
    Randy can advise as well as Uncleleo.
    Glad you reached out. It will be alright...
    Lvg nghtmare likes this.

  3. #3
    illmans is offline New Member
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    Thank you for your response.

    And yes I completely agree its overkill, but the only reason I've considered it is because the symptoms have been on par with other withdrawals I've experienced.

    I knew that I would need less, but the question I needed answered, which you did, was how much less and didn't want to run out of sub if .5 or 1mg wasn't enough at induction thus using up more than I have and needing to get back on Kratom after letting the sub leave my system.

    I try tapering with Kratom, it's just such a short acting substance and its potency goes up and down from batch to batch that one day I drop from 5 grams for instance down to 4 and that 4 is just as strong as the previous 5. Or it's much weaker and I end up trying to guess how much to take to stabilize, meanwhile it's short acting so I have to act fast while I'm at work or around people etc.

    It's just very much a roller coaster to manage.

    The other problem tht I don't like talking about is that Kratom is That it slows down the GI tract like any opioid while also adding a ton of basically fiber to your system while mildly drying you up. This causes daily complications worse than when I was addicted to stronger things.
    Thus I'm in a hurry to drop it.

    Thank you so much for your asnswering

  4. #4
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    OK. I guess this is the thread you're going to keep going, right? So I'm going to respond to today's post from your other thread here so that that one will drop off.

    I've been around here a long time and I have come across people who were trying to quit Kratom. I've never used it myself and I'm so glad that I had never even heard of it until I became a member here. When I was immersed in pills there is no question in my mind that I would have found a new favorite home shopping experience. I'm pretty sure that even had I read the warnings, I would have done it anyway figuring that I was in so deep that it didn't much matter what I would be taking. Bleh. Addict logic and I do own a significant amount of that but thankfully, my clean self can recognize it and I can now talk some sense to myself. I've been reading about Kratom on and off during my tenure here once I began to see people coming here for help and support. So, for over seven years I keep reading how the government is going to put restrictions on it but I haven't seen that yet. We can be so naive! It's over the counter (essentially) so it has to be safe, right? Yeah. Not so much. In fact, there is an active member here who went cold turkey and during her detox, she went into a shop where they had it on the shelf. The guy told her it was non-addictive and to be used for anxiety but worked great for pain too. She bought it, jumped on her thread and told us how wonderfully it worked. The Forum to the rescue! lol Into the trash it went. I can only imagine how many unsuspecting folks get caught up with it.

    Anyway, I absolutely believe you when you say that detox from Kratom is a bear. That is the same experience I have read about from others. Wish one of them were here now but I can't think of anyone who is actively detoxing from Kratom. I think that Uncle Leo used Kratom in the past and he also did our Sub Taper Plan successfully. I'm guessing he's over a year clean now and working hard on his recovery. This stuff is definitely no joke! You might search out his thread and connect with him. He no doubt could be of great help to you.

    Now you have to set a day and go for it. There is never a perfect time to get this underway but everyday is the right day. It sounds like if you choose a day when you're off of work, you should be able to reach the 26 score and induct on the subs the day after your last dose and be good to go back to work after another day. So long as you wait long enough to be in sufficient withdrawal and you induct the right way, it'll only be a matter of a few hours before you're stable, will know your initial dose, and be on your way toward your first reduction.

    Keep posting and ask questions. You're going to do great.

    Peace,

    Cat

  5. #5
    illmans is offline New Member
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    Yes I'll stick with this one. Lol Im sorry for the jump around. Okay uncle Leo.....
    Found him. I actually found this thread from a google search months back during one of my obsessive internet answer hunts. I was considering tapering, then said NOPE, now here I am back.

    God you're right. There never is a perfect day to start. Only today. The apprehension and faith in the process is slightly unsettling, but I've blindly jumped into worse... Im going to aim for my last dose to be Late Friday afternoon, get a sleep aid and try to ride out as long as possible. Thanks again for the support, I'm so anxious to get this going.

  6. #6
    illmans is offline New Member
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    Somehow, while focusing on other things and on getting off I allowed myself to run out of Kratom tonight, Ive been allowing myself to start getting sick before dosing then inwent to take my bed time dose and realized what was left was nothing thinking that I had more than I did. Now I'm on these forums just reading and going insane. Its 3:00 now withdrawals started up 3 hours ago. and I have to be up at 6:30 for work. the nearest shop doesn't open until 9. I've been trying to taper down as low as possible so there's not much in my system and it's starting up like a train, not terrible, but too much to sleep....and building...by the minute. Try to close my eyes then the heat envelopes me, skin starts crawling, heart beating hard. I have before and I'll swear again, god I hope I'm done forever, this is awful. What a mess. it's the only thing you can focus on when it happens. just needed to say something to somebody.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-07-2017 at 03:09 AM. Reason: Grammar and because
    Catrina likes this.

  7. #7
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by illmans View Post
    Somehow, while focusing on other things and on getting off I allowed myself to run out of Kratom tonight, Ive been allowing myself to start getting sick before dosing then inwent to take my bed time dose and realized what was left was nothing thinking that I had more than I did. Now I'm on these forums just reading and going insane. Its 3:00 now withdrawals started up 3 hours ago. and I have to be up at 6:30 for work. the nearest shop doesn't open until 9. I've been trying to taper down as low as possible so there's not much in my system and it's starting up like a train, not terrible, but too much to sleep....and building...by the minute. Try to close my eyes then the heat envelopes me, skin starts crawling, heart beating hard. I have before and I'll swear again, god I hope I'm done forever, this is awful. What a mess. it's the only thing you can focus on when it happens. just needed to say something to somebody.
    I totally understand the panic you must be feeling and I think that is what is responsible for much of what you're feeling. Actual withdrawal may have started but it's really quite amazing how the mental side of this affects us physically as well. You weren't planning for this to happen last night so you weren't prepared. Don't let this scare you. Use the remainder of this week to prepare yourself including planning the minimum amount of Kratom that you're going to need until Friday. After your last dose, flush whatever you have left. Important for a variety of reasons including doing something tangible that marks your commitment and making it harder for you to put it off for another day after you've finished up what you have. It's easy to second guess ourselves. This is a big deal. It's life changing.

    Keep posting. It's a good way to strengthen your resolve and build upon your excitement to get this underway and behind you.

    Peace,

    Cat

  8. #8
    illmans is offline New Member
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    100% panic, lol none the less real. I did. Not. Handle. that. well....haha
    Life gets so good being clean you forget what this is like. Makes me wish I had years of meditation experience Thank god im very mobile for work and could remedy at first availability. Time to mentally prep for Friday i'm going to need to harden up over the next couple days

  9. #9
    illmans is offline New Member
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    Rodeo started....at a nice invigorating 6 on the COWS 8 hours in.
    The better half want a fan of the sub idea...so looks like it's just hot showers and Tylenol for now
    God bless
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  10. #10
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by illmans View Post
    Rodeo started....at a nice invigorating 6 on the COWS 8 hours in.
    The better half want a fan of the sub idea...so looks like it's just hot showers and Tylenol for now
    God bless
    Hi!

    I'm in at home for the night so I'll stay connected. Please give regular detailed updates and I'll be around if you need any help. Once the symptoms begin to kick in, they usually will escalate fairly rapidly. Do you have your doses cut into the correct sized pieces? If not, you should do that now before you get too shaky. Be careful to mark them so that you know what dose the pieces are. Just as a reminder, cut one tab/strip so that you get one piece that is 1/2mg and the remainder are 1/4mg.

    NO comfort meds and that includes Tylenol. Sorry! Anything that you take to help ease any of the symptoms is just going to slow down your progress. I know it's weird to say, but you want to get as sick as you can as quickly as you can.

    Woohooo! I'll keep checking in on you.

    Peace,

    Cat

  11. #11
    lostready2change is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by illmans View Post
    Rodeo started....at a nice invigorating 6 on the COWS 8 hours in.
    The better half want a fan of the sub idea...so looks like it's just hot showers and Tylenol for now
    God bless
    Good my friend!

    We are all pulling for you, you can do this!

  12. #12
    illmans is offline New Member
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    Hey guys thanks so much for the support.
    I'm at hour 31, and no suboxone!!

    Cat I wished I read your post sooner. Was just in too much of it to get online and focus for long enough.
    kicked off hard and fast like it has in the past, hours 8- 24 have been the worst.
    So strange in comparison to the past in terms of length of intensity.
    I've always metabolized very quickly and any wthicrawal for me always seems to be a little more intense and barely shorter than other people's experience. But I think the level of anxiety and what you have going on in your life and immediately around you must play an enormous part in how severe your symptoms are. All day yesterday all of my joints were killing me from my toes to inside my teeth, all aching very badly and I couldn't sit still for the life of me. Skin on fire, almost unbearable pain.
    If coming off >>>>> was 9 or 10, this was about like a 7 or 8 most of the day.

    Kratom is not to be trifled with. But at some point just before trying to go to bed it let off a bit,

    I had taken .125 mg clonzepam at noon yesterday along with a zofran and gabapentin,
    Just before bed I took a power to sleep formula from Walmart with gaba and other >>>> in it along with a .5 xanax, and (hard to describe) very painfully and abruptly jerked to sleep. I woke up porpbablh twice but don't remember it due to the xanax.


    This morning I woke up with serious GI issues and aching stomach chills and that cloudy headed dysphoria.

    So grateful for the support of you guys building up to this and the support of my girlfriend and a friend from work. No way in hell would I have jumped off in this manner without the understanding that I've received.
    Looking forward to each passing day.

    So far this is my second time coming off kratom and a completely different experience none the less uncomfortable.

    Take care and thanks

  13. #13
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
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    Good Morning,

    So you made it through the night. That's good news. What are your plans from here? Are you still planning on inducting with the subs or to ride out the storm? I'll be around and will check on and off to see how you're doing. If you are going ahead with your sub plan, don't take anything. Did you score yourself this morning? What's your score? It sounds like you are well on your way so don't take anything and hopefully you'll be ready soon to take your first dose.

    Check in. I'll be thinking about you today.

    Peace,

    Cat

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