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Suboxone Jump Soon - Walking on Tightrope
  1. #1
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Question Suboxone Jump Soon - Walking on Tightrope

    So, after reading maybe 100-150 stories I realized this: it's going to be different for everyone and I just need to have the tools and know the right way to adapt.

    I've been on Subs for 22 months. Previously, I was one opioids (various) on and off 8 years. I quit cold turkey once, and self-tapered over 2 months once, and over 4 months another time. This last time I decided to go with Subs. I was doing more than usual, and I needed a way to maintain my sanity and be very effective at work, while going off.

    To this day I think subs was the wrong choice, but we'll see. I should have read these forums. The doc started me too high (16mg). He tapers me every 28 days (should have been faster).

    But then again, all my docs were very careful because of my Bipolar I disorder and trying not to disrupt anything and set it off. Well, that didn't happen. Made a mess of me, actually.

    So I am down to 0.2mg/day of straight Buprenorphine (I switched from the Naprox blend a long time ago). I will stabilize, I hope, in about 2 more days, then go down to 0.15mg, 5 days, then 0.10mg, 5 days, and then probably 0.05mg for sleeping at night. If I don't get decent sleep (5+ hrs) for too many days I can get somewhat-to-very manic or very depressed. Sucks. Then I can't make good decisions. Have to be very careful.

    Tried Thomas before, but didn't know anything for me so not going it again. Going to just MAKE myself exercise and sweat and take hot showers and force myself to eat healthy and take regular multi-vitamins.


    My BIG CONCERN is that I will either stop thinking straight or will not be able to function at work.

    I hear many people say, "I jumped from X.Ymg and barely had withdrawals". It's not necessarily the WD I am concerned about, but rather, being able to FUNCTION. I've searched hard and can't find this.

    I work at a high-level position in a very big company. I need to make quality decisions and keep decently sharp.

    To those that said, "no WD or barely any WD", where you able to function? Could you take a test? Study for an exam? Be in a 6-8 conference? Give a speech? Focus on some dangerous work (IDK, like electrician)? Run a family. Go to social events and be lively and engaging?

    Or, are you saying that they weren't "bad" WD, but maybe but still didn't function 90%+ ??


    ANY INPUT on this would be great. I am playing it by ear, and am willing to alter each step, but I am at my wits end. I need to get off. I feel like I am losing it sometimes and my psyche is treading a very thin line. I need out ASAP.

  2. #2
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Welcome. You've come a very long way. Congrats.

    Can you taper lower or skip days and see how you feel? Everyone is different. Maybe that could give you a sense?

  3. #3
    Maninmirror is offline Member
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    Hey there!!

    Congrats on already getting down to a low dose.
    For sleeping I asked my doctor for something he gave me doxepin (I think that's how you spell it).
    It definitely helps me sleep.. I've slept at least 6 hours a night no problem.. Usually just cause I have to wake for my demanding job.

    I'll back up a bit.. My last dose was 5.5 days ago so technically haven't dosed for 4.5 days, I jumped from .125mg.

    Other than the the heavy legs and getting tired during the day it hasn't been bad, finally noticing progress with that.
    I do some big power electrician work at my job and have been completely successful.. I feel like I'm actually more motivated and thinking clearer.

    Now if you dwell on how you are feeling throughout the day that may be different.
    I find that I'm more proud of my work decisions and more decisive, I care again (I have to make time sensitive calls myself)

    So I guess what I'm saying is.. You'll be fine just don't over think it, you have to handle this issue ya know?
    Don't wanna be on the stuff forever.. I find that I care so much more about social situations everything, even though I'm tired it's more enjoyable.
    We've spent a lot of time battling a demon, and your jump is the final match.. The boss fight!!

    You've been preparing for this moment with each reduction..
    Every WD symptom throughout your taper..
    It's time and you can do it!!!
    Many have done it before us!!!

    You can do it.. Proud of you for getting so low, I know how hard it is!
    Don't overthink and analyze the situation that makes it worse..
    Hush push through and become free of the burden..

    I'll check back in when I can..
    Keep pushin.. Forward motion..
    UncleLeo likes this.

  4. #4
    Maninmirror is offline Member
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    Skipping days first is a great idea also before you jump..
    You'll get a taste of what to expect..

  5. #5
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hey Carlos
    I agree w Uncleleo and Maninmirror. Go as low as u can and start skipping days. You're on .2 mg already. Some folks dropped to .125mg and then either jumped or began to skip days. Your choice. The jump, either way, was no problem. Not a big deal for most. Be prepared to deal w the head trip mostly because we all were accustomed to taking something daily and now we don't. Substitute vitamins!
    Proud of you. Many folks worked their jobs right through. Talk to Bette aka iluvtosmile..
    Hang in there!

  6. #6
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Update: 52 Hours

    This all very strange. I'll explain in a bit.

    First of all, thanks for the support and suggestions. For sleep, I am already on so many meds (for bipolar), including 4mg clonazepam (the next one I will do away with ... one at a time) and 4 others. Plus 3 others for another disorder.

    I wasn't so worried about social in a way of being "accepted", but rather "performing". I have certain social situation with executives and need to be on my top game. It's hard with this slow taper.

    2 months ago I decided to STOP doing this once per day or twice per day dosing. It didn't work for me that well. I know, everyone argues against it and my doc said twice per day is ok, max. Problem was that I would feel the WD's start anywhere between 10-14 hours after dosing, sometimes to the point of shakes. I just didn't get it. Metabolism differences? Don't know. On a single dose (in the morning) I would have a TERRIBLE night sleep even after 28 days of being on the same dose. I just didn't get it.

    So I changed it all up. I decided to split the dose into 6 pieces and only take a dose "as needed" once the WD's started to set in. Amazingly enough, this allowed me to taper MUCH FASTER! I was able to exactly double my taper pace during two months, down to the 0.20mg.

    So, then, I got sick a week ago, and went on antibiotics last Friday, 4 days ago. I don't know if that is relevant for the following:

    I have gone 52 hours without need any partial dose. Nothing. No craving. No WD. No weakness. No fatigue. I just don't get it. Because I "wait" until I feel WD to take the next one, I just kept waiting.

    52 hours...

    I know avg half life is 37 hrs with a range of 20 - 72 (and effective blood level of 3x normal daily dose), so anything can happen at this point. But given my past history of extreme sensitivity to opioids and specifically to the Buprenorphine taper, I just don't get it.

    Is my body reacting somehow to my respiratory infection and helping me out? Could this be a data point to consider?


    I ask because last year something similar happened.

    I'd had feet warts for 4 years to the point of having a cluster of about 12-14 and then scattered 5 others. My feet are not sensitive: I walk barefoot a lot and play soccer, rugby. The doctors would scrape and go through a whole freeze can. I went to 6 straight treatments with no success. One month later I tried another 7. Nothing.

    Months later I fracture 4 bones in my foot playing soccer (and partially tear two ligaments), my foot swells up unrecognizably, and ONE week later ALL my warts are gone (I have pics BTW),


    Is my body going into some healing mode? Seems like a stretch.

    It's possible I could be in the start of a manic episode and all my chemicals are out of whack and neutralizing the negative effects. Maybe.

    In any case. Thanks again and wish me luck. I'll update soon.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-23-2016 at 10:22 PM.

  7. #7
    Ming23 is offline Platinum Member
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    Carlos
    Sub stays in ur body a while so perhaps u could consider this 52 hours as skipping two days. If u get sick, refer to the sticky from robert325.
    Try to follow the taper plan and don't get too concerned. It seems to me that you're expecting to feel a certain way. Just taper down as low as u can, then either start skipping or just jump. I got a cold on day 6 after jumping. Sime folks did not. Sneezing was rampant.
    We're each different. Drink a lot of water, take vitamins, exercise. You're almost done w the physical part.
    Next comes brain adjustment to Not taking any more subs.
    You're doing fine! Read posts. Hang in there!

  8. #8
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Do you have a good p-doc who you can trust? Or just a >>>>>> sub doc like a lot of us had? Does he/she know you haven't been taking any sub?

    How do your manic eps usually present? Hang in there buddy. Just don't want to see you lose your baseline.

  9. #9
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Update: Hour 64-ish

    Sub doc is pretty decent, but not as highly-informed as he should have been. He's not completely lost. I've talked to him and my psych about jumping, and to be honest, they both cautioned me against it because of the bipolar disorder. It's the other reason why he has me on this 28-day stabilization schedule. I've kept telling him I want to stop and I said I may be calling in to get some Clonidine if I do.

    I know they stay in the system for a long time, but in the past 2 years I've ALWAYS started to feel WD's around 10-14 hours after a dose. The strangest part is that I feel GOOD and I'm almost at the 3-day mark. Not one single symptom. I even have more energy and clarity. I've tried to skip before even at low doses (0.4mg) and by hour 20-22 (I split into 2 doses) I was sweating, shaking, and had a terrible tightness in my spine, anxiety and looming feeling of despair.

    How does the mania manifest? Wow. I've gone 4-5 months with about 3 - 3.5 hours sleep per night. I wake up so excited to start the day, jump out of bed, and get going on so many things. I feel like I can conquer the world (and have started a few companies while manic), I have all sorts of master plans and start many of them at the same time: house projects, massive crafts with my daughter, etc. I started spending like crazy if I obsess over something, and feel the need to collect it. Hyper-sexuality (very high increase in libido). I become way more social and convince people of all these great things we're going to accomplish. I make bad decisions that I would never make while "normal" (whatever that is). I start taking drugs thinking I can control it and that they will help me accomplish big dreams. I'm very easily distracted and my thoughts are all over the place. I have this insane driving impulse to get things done and fix every problem out there. I play sports more than usual and in a risky way (e.g. playing with fractures). I already play every day (rugby, soccer, hockey, basketball, volleyball) but I go extreme with it. There is this inner NEED in my body to let loose and to push it to complete and utter exhaustion. I can become highly agitated in a split second and explode.

    So that's just a sample. Sometimes I don't know I've gone down that path. I've learned to recognize and keep records every day now to detect it. I am seeing SOME hints of it, which is why I was wondering if there is some counteracting nullifying scenario going on.


    Thanks everyone. And thanks for reminding me: I should call my doc and tell him that I've stopped.

    I'll drink more water and take my vitamins. Other than that, I need to make sure I sleep enough and I'll update later.

  10. #10
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    OK - so how do those episodes you described line up with how you're feeling the past day or two? You said you have more energy instead of less. How many hours are you sleeping? 3-4 or 7-8? Are you playing your sports daily as you would with no ill effects?

    And how long do the up eps usually last for you? And is there protocol for you for when they tail off? (have seen a lot of BP through work and some family and friends - but never with a sub taper, maybe you're catching the break of a lifetime. We're all different
    kittylover84 likes this.

  11. #11
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Update: Hour 86

    I finally felt a little bit of a WD symptom ... but I really do mean a little. Normally I get this terrible feeling in my spine, like something is tightening around it -- it is the most uncomfortable, agitating, feeling, and so constant that it makes me want to scream. Well, I barely felt a little bit during the night when I woke for a minute, and that was it.

    @UncleLeo: Thanks for the support and questions.

    Normal sleep? Ha...I have almost forgotten normal. With BP and all the drug abuse and the bombardment of ever changing prescriptions, I just can't exactly pinpoint normal. I can say that when not manic or depressed (or mixed or cycling) I can go 6.5 hours and feel good. Last night I slept 5.5 hours and feel OK--not too bad.

    Sports? There's a bit of a catch. In my original post I talked about how this "flu" may have had some effect on this detox and WDs. It's a respiratory infection .... but ... that hasn't prevented me from going out and trying. Yes, I know, bad decision. I could only run for 10-15 minutes, my lungs heaving and burning, and had to stop for a bit when my vision narrowed and I started to blackout. I came back on the field for 5-10 minutes at a time. Towards the end of the antibiotics I (1 and 2 days ago) I started feeling much better and was able to go mt-biking for 20 minutes, do a bit of swimming, and coach soccer ... all of this below my normal activity level due to resp infection.

    Manic episodes, for me, last between a few weeks to several (6-8) months. I am highly on the manic side, then again, I've used drugs my whole life to "counter" certain effects (I hate depression). And also, when on super manic high I make bad choices ,,,


    Yes, one thing I've learned in so many more ways than one. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. I do not judge. I've not walked in their shoes. I do not know the stuff people have gone through nor do I pretend to know what and how they feel. I can empathize perhaps, or even have a similar situation, but I do not KNOW. I do not know if the screaming lady in line in front of me just had her dog die this morning. The mom with 5 kids. The lazy worker. The rude sales clerk.


    People say, "just quit". They look down. The have disdain and disgust. They do not know the serious brain chemistry screwup that is in my head, the countless tests--blood, scans, psych, experimental--I've done to try to disprove the bipolar disorder. They do not know that every full blown manic episode or massive depressive episode actually alter the physiology of the brain and changes the way it produces chemicals, thus forcing me to change up meds and doses and stay on guard all the time. They do not know that sometimes I don't even remember doing things ... Yet, they judge as if I were them, and look down. So I play my character very well and hide my self from those that have not the will or empathy to attempt to understand, at the very least.


    I'm a stubborn defiant son-of-bi----- by nature and will sometimes transform my weakness or sorrow into raging anger as a defense mechanism, and it helps me overcome some of my shortcomings, if you will. I will run my body into the ground until it can give no more, and the pain and exhaustion that comes with it brings a calming peace, if only for a few hours. The noise drowns out through the buildup of acid in my muscles, the depletion of minerals and full body cramping, the coursing blood trying futilely to deliver enough oxygen.

    Temporary peace.

    I am using this rage to quit. And I feel no WD except for the first small hint of one a few hours ago.


    Thanks again everyone! And to everyone else who is trying as well, I wish you luck, and will be reading the forums to help anyone however I can.

  12. #12
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Update: Hour 96 (4 days)

    So I started feeling some slight RLS and fatigue in my legs this afternoon. Nothing more than that. It could also be because of less than normal sleep last night. But, still, no real signs of WD's. I know this can peak at day 7 - 10 (for some, I've heard day 4 or 5), so I am just waiting to see what happens...

    Off to coach soccer... and pump my legs full of oxygen and blood.

    Cheers.

  13. #13
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by carloscipher View Post
    So I started feeling some slight RLS and fatigue in my legs this afternoon. Nothing more than that. It could also be because of less than normal sleep last night. But, still, no real signs of WD's. I know this can peak at day 7 - 10 (for some, I've heard day 4 or 5), so I am just waiting to see what happens...

    Off to coach soccer... and pump my legs full of oxygen and blood.

    Cheers.
    Hey there. Are you still taking small doses or did you already stop the Sub? I think you had plans to taper really low, yes?

    Just wanted to see how things are going.
    Kat

  14. #14
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Exclamation Update: Day 5 - Boom!

    It hit me. I was waiting for this. There were enough instances of people not feeling anything until later. I am one of those. Let's see what happens.

    I am writing this while not being able to stop moving nor concentrate. I keep coming back to the keyboard.

    @Iwantoff2013: I stopped 5 days ago, taking my last 0.04mg after a 24 hour period where I had previously taken 0.04mg and was taking 0.04mg every 4-5 hours (about 0.15mg - 0.20mg / day.) So, you could almost say 6 days.


    Hour 99: 8:00 PM

    I started to feel RLS get a little worse. Not a good sign. My spine started to tighten even more. So I decided that I was going to need as much sleep as possible tonight. I am on a lot of medications due to my conditions, and some are "as needed". Well, I felt I needed all of it and took it all by 12:00AM.

    • Clonazepam: 5mg (as needed 4mg; over the course of 14 hours, starting 12pm when I felt the very first small signs. I took 1mg over my prescription.
    • Risperidone: 4mg daily (night time; anti-psychotic)
    • Gabapentin: 1400mg (as needed; treats epilepsy, neuropathic pain, hot flashes, RLS)
    • Lamictal: 400mg daily (morning; mood stabilizer)
    • Propranolol: 60mg daily (night time)
    • Clonidine: 0.4mg (0.2mg twice per day)



    Hour 103: 12:00 AM

    RLS was the same. Watched a few episodes of Killjoys. I knew I had to sleep though had no desire to sleep (never do; hate it). Knocked out; went ot sleep within 30 seconds as usual.


    Hour 105: 2:15 AM

    Woke with the massive RLS. Daughter had come to sleep in bed cause of nightmares. Spine felt extremely cramped, an agitation so bad and uncortable that I could not lie still. Tried to sleep. Took some left over Xanax I'd had: 2mg, and waited 30 minutes. Tossed and turned, mind racing at extreme levels and could not focus on single thoughts. Had to stretch legs. Had to move. Got up out of bed to start my day at 2:45AM.



    Hour 106: 2:45 AM

    Took my daily dosage of morning meds.

    2:45AM: Had massive agitation and felt such a NEED to run. Body felt like exploding within.

    THIS IS NOT A TYPICAL WITHDRAWAL. Others (my last 4, not subs) were much worse and I felt like I was being torn down into pieces, a slow death of sorts, a flu beyond all flus on top of it all an anxiety so great like I've never felt. Sweat, puke, diarrhea, shakes, the mother of all fatigue, little to no sleep, passing out on floors, etc. You all know the drill.

    THIS TIME: I feel a tremendous agitation. I cannot sit still nor stand still. I cannot concentrate. Writing this is taking forever. My legs need to run. My body needs to release its dynamite. This could be the bipolar mania being triggered. My chemicals could be so out of whack right now. This is not good. I need to calm down.

    I think the average person would have somewhat crashed or been very tired given the drugs I take and especially my last dosage amounts. They have no effect right now. Boom! It's all blowing up. I wish someone with Bipolar I could related THEIR experience with a Sub WD. Do you know of anyone? I've searched the threads.


    Hour 109: 5:55 AM

    Finished post. Did some other stuff. Paced the house for about 1 hour 30 minutes. Fixed some things but got lost a bit and don't remember all of it.

  15. #15
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Post Update: Day 5 - Diagnosis Info

    Reference diagnosis info:

    • Bipolar I (mostly manic, cyclic, mixed; infrequent depression but it does hit me hard)
    • ADHD (somewhat common with Bipolar 1 Manic)
    • Generalized Anxiety (usually comes with the territory)
    • Narcolepsy (many years of this; before meds)


    I never wanted to believe any of this and had 3-4 psych and doc opinions for Bipolar I and for ADHD. I paid out of pocket to have tests run many times (blood, scans).

    I score 95%+ on BP scale/tests. My chemicals are out of whack.

    • Adrenaline/Epinephrine: levels are continuously 40% - 100% above normal. This is bad for my heart and my body. No disease according to docs (some disease will make it 500% - 1000% above normal).
    • Norepinephrine: elevated usually
    • Dopamine: All over the place
    • Serotonin: All over the place


    If anyone has similar diagnosis and has gone through Sub taper, WD, etc., would love to hear about it.


    Thanks everyone for support! I feel like I have on place to go where people understand and don't judge. It's the one comfort I have.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 08-26-2016 at 08:08 AM.

  16. #16
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by carloscipher View Post
    Reference diagnosis info:

    • Bipolar I (mostly manic, cyclic, mixed; infrequent depression but it does hit me hard)
    • ADHD (somewhat common with Bipolar 1 Manic)
    • Generalized Anxiety (usually comes with the territory)
    • Narcolepsy (many years of this; before meds)


    I never wanted to believe any of this and had 3-4 psych and doc opinions for Bipolar I and for ADHD. I paid out of pocket to have tests run many times (blood, scans).

    I score 95%+ on BP scale/tests. My chemicals are out of whack.

    • Adrenaline/Epinephrine: levels are continuously 40% - 100% above normal. This is bad for my heart and my body. No disease according to docs (some disease will make it 500% - 1000% above normal).
    • Norepinephrine: elevated usually
    • Dopamine: All over the place
    • Serotonin: All over the place


    If anyone has similar diagnosis and has gone through Sub taper, WD, etc., would love to hear about it.


    Thanks everyone for support! I feel like I have on place to go where people understand and don't judge. It's the one comfort I have.
    I can't recall ever seeing another thread of someone going through the same thing as you regarding Bipolar and Sub withdrawal. This must be a very difficult road and I'm glad we're at least able to offer support. It helps to know we're not alone.

    My sister is Bipolar but she lives in another state so I don't get to see her very often. She has manic episodes where she'll start like a hundred different projects and try to conquer them all but never finishes anything because the highs turn to terrible lows. Then she's withdrawn, depressed, and anti-social. Doesn't answer the phone. Doesn't want to see anyone. Then it all starts over again. She refuses to stay on meds which is extremely frustrating because they really help her. Don't know why she does that.

    So the WD symptoms are getting worse, huh? Your first post stated you were gonna go from .20 to .15 to .10 and so on, so that's why I asked. Didn't realize you'd jumped off already.

    I wish I had some words of wisdom but all I can say is hang in there. We'll be here for ya

    Kat

  17. #17
    Danidbo9 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by carloscipher View Post
    Reference diagnosis info:

    • Bipolar I (mostly manic, cyclic, mixed; infrequent depression but it does hit me hard)
    • ADHD (somewhat common with Bipolar 1 Manic)
    • Generalized Anxiety (usually comes with the territory)
    • Narcolepsy (many years of this; before meds)


    I never wanted to believe any of this and had 3-4 psych and doc opinions for Bipolar I and for ADHD. I paid out of pocket to have tests run many times (blood, scans).

    I score 95%+ on BP scale/tests. My chemicals are out of whack.

    • Adrenaline/Epinephrine: levels are continuously 40% - 100% above normal. This is bad for my heart and my body. No disease according to docs (some disease will make it 500% - 1000% above normal).
    • Norepinephrine: elevated usually
    • Dopamine: All over the place
    • Serotonin: All over the place


    If anyone has similar diagnosis and has gone through Sub taper, WD, etc., would love to hear about it.


    Thanks everyone for support! I feel like I have on place to go where people understand and don't judge. It's the one comfort I have.
    Hi Carlos!

    I am diagnosed with Bipolar II I don't know if there is a big difference or not but the RLS and anxiety are the worst for me! Tomorrow I'm supposed to drop from .50 to .375

  18. #18
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Update: Day 6 - Mixed

    Hour 110: 6:30 AM

    The agitation stopped. I had been sitting at my desk with my legs going nuts--uncontrollable--and my body twitching every so often. Then it stopped. I opened my laptop and started reading emails (even though I had taken Friday off, I still had a conference call at 8AM).

    I prepared very intently, hyper-focused, and took the call. It went very well, above my expectations.


    Hour 119: 3:00 PM

    I had been trying to engage in things throughout the day. I've drank my fluids and eaten decently. No stomach issues at all. Just random light agitation and some slight tiredness -- enough to dissuade me from working in the backyard or anything like that.

    At 3pm, fatigue finally kicked my ass. I feel asleep on the toilet. I went to my desk, tried to engage in something on the computer (games) and nodded off, again. I had been fighting this intense sleepiness for the last 2 hours. I decided to take a nap. I have this issue with sleep that I've had since I was a very small child: I HATE IT. I just don't want to sleep. I'd rather do other things. And even when I know I need to rest, I don't. I need to rest. I need to think clear and make good choices to get over this quickly.


    Hour 121: 5:00 PM

    Fitful sleep but not nearly as bad as last night from 12AM - 2:15AM. Guilt always gets to me, and I felt guilty about my daughter coming home and not being there for her. I've done this and so many other things for her. Another story, not for this forum.


    Hour 125: 8:45 PM

    My wife and daughter went to school charity event--one that I had wanted to attend but I knew I could not deal with a crown of hundreds of people--adults. The kids I'm OK with. I've spent the last few hours watching KillJoys. I loaded up on Gabapentin, about 1200mg in the last 4 hours. I REALLY want to sleep tonight and get rest. I took a little extra Clonidine, too.

    My daughter has a friend over to spend the night. I know they'll be up late making noise but that's all good. I'm happy to see her playing and enjoying herself. I need these natural endorphins and happy chemicals.


    Hour 127: 11:00 PM

    They decided to fall asleep (more like take a nap) in the Guest bedroom downstairs--the bedroom I was sleeping in to avoid disturbing anyone. So I went up to the upstairs family room and guest room and both of them have forts. Guess I'm sleeping in her room. Exhausted...but not mentally, and not really "physically". Just tired in a way I can't describe. It's probably the Gabapentin.


    Hour 129: 1:00 AM

    Tossing turning; tossing turning. My spine is doing that thing that I really, really, really hate. It's the most agitating, uncomfortable feeling. Only way I can explain: I had bad stomach issues from being out in the sun one day. I had to interact with a lot of people and I felt like any second I was going to explode. I held it in for 1.5 hours and it started to hurt. My body was yelling at me. I felt a numbness and this terrible anxious and agitate feeling. I was sweating. When talking to people I felt a black sucking feeling within me, a sensation of doom and anxiety mixed together. The spine thing: much worse than that.

    I finally feel myself calm down. I had kicked my legs against my daughter's metal bed princess post things several times. One time I cut myself. I banged my head once. I just kept jerking and spasming. My spine. Then it stopped right around 1:00AM. I fell asleep.

  19. #19
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the thought. Mania is a wonderful and terrible thing. I harnessed it most of my life, I had thought, until I realized I was out of control at certain points. It wasn't until looking back that I saw the destruction (and the accomplishments).

    Yes, I did a very rapid taper from about 0.66 down to 0.15-ish then stopped. Several days (4-5) of nothing then it started hitting me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwantoff2013 View Post
    I can't recall ever seeing another thread of someone going through the same thing as you regarding Bipolar and Sub withdrawal. This must be a very difficult road and I'm glad we're at least able to offer support. It helps to know we're not alone.

    My sister is Bipolar but she lives in another state so I don't get to see her very often. She has manic episodes where she'll start like a hundred different projects and try to conquer them all but never finishes anything because the highs turn to terrible lows. Then she's withdrawn, depressed, and anti-social. Doesn't answer the phone. Doesn't want to see anyone. Then it all starts over again. She refuses to stay on meds which is extremely frustrating because they really help her. Don't know why she does that.

    So the WD symptoms are getting worse, huh? Your first post stated you were gonna go from .20 to .15 to .10 and so on, so that's why I asked. Didn't realize you'd jumped off already.

    I wish I had some words of wisdom but all I can say is hang in there. We'll be here for ya

    Kat

  20. #20
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danidbo9 View Post
    Hi Carlos!

    I am diagnosed with Bipolar II I don't know if there is a big difference or not but the RLS and anxiety are the worst for me! Tomorrow I'm supposed to drop from .50 to .375
    There is a difference, and the new DSM-V (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) now defines Bipolar into something like 5 or more categories. This was since 2013 or so and some psyhcs and docs still use the old classifications.

    0.5 to 0.375 was a significant drop for me and I couldn't stabilize after 28 days. It must be the brain chemistry or metabolism, but I would start feeling WD at about hour 16 after my morning dose. Good luck. How are you with the tapers? How long does it take to stabilize?

    Would you mind describing your RLS? Everyone seems to be different.

    And what does your anxiety feel like? During previous WD, mine is this inner urge to explode; my blood feels like it is hot and crawling and very uncomfortable; people around me make me feel like they are slowly melting my will away; my breathing gets rapid and deep; and crazy thoughts run through my mind 10 per second. This was during my previous WDs when either went cold turkey or very rapid detox off of other opes. This time its a much milder version of that.

  21. #21
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Day 7 - Better-ish

    Saturday, Hour 131: 3:00 AM

    My daughter and her friend were still up and came upstairs wanting to sleep in her room now so I went downstairs to the guest room and immediately fell asleep without issue.That was a relief. I thought I wouldn't be able to fall back asleep and have to go through the spinal weirdness again.


    8:00 AM

    Woke up, groggy, but this time with more physical energy. I was sleepy, though, and that was probably all the extra pills I took the previous night. I was sleepy up until 12PM. I was also lethargic.


    AFTERNOON

    I started to get some things done. I tried to keep moving as much as possible. I did a few chores. I still had issues concentrating, as I wanted to do some work. I was still lethargic and could only do basics. I figured I'd wait until I had some clarity and focus. I went out and bought a whole bunch of fruit smoothies of all sorts. Interestingly, within hours of chugging them I felt a pick-me-up. I had 3 types:
    • Strawberry-Banana
    • Protein (Naked or Odwalla)
    • Berry Oxidant Mix

    Took my vitamins and ate some cereal. I was starting to feel relaxed and this made me optimistic about tonight and hopefully not getting the spinal attack.


    EVENING

    Chilled and watched shows. Played with my daughter as much as possible. She brings me joy and that's good for me right now.

    She went to bed and then ... I was wide awake. I don't know why. Eyes wide open. Didn't have a single feeling of sleepiness or tiredness. This isn't good.


    Sunday, 12:45 AM

    Finally started to get a hint of tiredness. I also started to get a hint of RLS. This is a strange dancing duo. Went to bad at 1AM and within 10 seconds the massive agitation started, my spine compressed itself into an anxiety-ridden monster. My body jerked every few minutes or so. Thoughts raced through my mind. Why? Why does this happen when I go to bed? I need sleep. I don't get this either. I didn't take Clonidine this evening just to see if there was a difference.

  22. #22
    Danidbo9 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by carloscipher View Post
    There is a difference, and the new DSM-V (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) now defines Bipolar into something like 5 or more categories. This was since 2013 or so and some psyhcs and docs still use the old classifications.

    0.5 to 0.375 was a significant drop for me and I couldn't stabilize after 28 days. It must be the brain chemistry or metabolism, but I would start feeling WD at about hour 16 after my morning dose. Good luck. How are you with the tapers? How long does it take to stabilize?

    Would you mind describing your RLS? Everyone seems to be different.

    And what does your anxiety feel like? During previous WD, mine is this inner urge to explode; my blood feels like it is hot and crawling and very uncomfortable; people around me make me feel like they are slowly melting my will away; my breathing gets rapid and deep; and crazy thoughts run through my mind 10 per second. This was during my previous WDs when either went cold turkey or very rapid detox off of other opes. This time its a much milder version of that.

    Hi Carlos! I'm glad to see you are doing a little betterish lol. I'm the same way I can get through the day but the nights are the worst.

    So far it's taken me about 4 days to stabilize. This is day 3 at .375. Other than feeling antsy and a little sweaty I'm ok since I woke up and will be taking my dose soon. I look forward to my dose to feel better. Is that weird?

    Ok. My RLS is like this. I will be lying on the couch watching tv and all of a sudden my legs will start to twitch or jerk. So I will change position and then the same thing happens. Then I start to get it in my arms. I can't sleep or get comfortable and it makes me crazy! I start thinking about how bad I feel and I get anxious and irritated at myself for being in that position!

    The best way I can describe my anxiety is this. I feel like I am a can of soda and someone shook the can real hard and when you open it it sprays everywhere!! Well I feel like I'm the shaken can waiting to be opened and spray everywhere. Does that make sense? I feel all jittery and I have a ton of energy and I can't get myself to do anything. Or I think of 10 things I want to do and I'm lucky if I get 1 done. I feel like I breath more rapidly and I can't sit still.

    I see a psych and he has me on Zoloft 100mgs in am and Lamictal 200mg at night. He doesn't know I am on subs because I started them myself 2 weeks ago because I wanted to get off of my raging Percocet habit of a year or so.... This time around. I was hoping to be off them by now. Do you think I should tell him? He didn't know I was on the percs for the past year. Let me know your opinion.

    How are you doing today? I hope you are feeling better!

  23. #23
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Day 8, Sunday - Pushing Myself

    Morning

    I decided to go push myself even though I was tired from lack of sleep. Last night was a bad night because I didn't take as many meds, so I ended up sleeping 3h 45m. I decided to go play my soccer match at 9am.

    It was very difficult. Normally I last the full 90 minutes, but this time I could only max out for 15 minutes. And I do mean max. The first 15 I started to get the blackout tunnel vision that leads to, well, blackouts. So I had to stop in the middle of the field and just sit. My lungs had been burning and my whole body screaming. In total I played three 15 minute parts.

    The best part of all this: after the game I felt clear headed. I felt GOOD. I was very pumped (yes, I am a junkie for sports -- most likely all related to my BP and nature of addiction). I was looking around for other games to join after I had finished mine.

    The rest of the day was better than Saturday, but by the end I was pretty tired and just wanted to sit and watch tv again. This something I never do so I know I am still not over any of this.

    That night, I slept well.
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  24. #24
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Day 9, 10 - Work

    Day 9, Monday

    I was dreading my first day back to work. I needed to be able to perform and be able to handle the 8am - 6pm continuous meetings without breaking down.

    And this was a big week. We are finalizing a major release and are communicating this out to some pretty big customers (Fortune 10/100) . I did OK, which is more than I expected. I didn't feel anxiety at all throughout the day. I thrive on the fast-paced, big-decision, big-money work environment and it just sucked me in. Before I knew it I was driving home and the crash started to happen.

    That evening, I needed to do some work, but couldn't really focus. I also couldn't go to sleep until about 12:30am and I had about 30 minutes of restlessness and that damnable spinal compression anxiety.



    Day 10, Tuesday

    Very intense work day and I didn't think once about what I had been going through. In other words, my usual habit of feeling in my pocket for that "crutch" to make sure it's ok and knowing that I'll be taking it in X minutes or hours to keep me going, was all gone. I didn't think at all about the anti-anxiety meds. I just took one at a certain hour, knowing that was the time to take it as a preventative measure right now (can't afford to break down during work).

    When I cam home, I coached soccer. Running around with the girls felt great. My blood was pumping, heart racing, and I wanted to run...just RUN...like Forrest Gump.



    Day 11, Wednesday

    What a terrible night. I had 2h 15m of sleep. I went to bed at 1:15AM because I just didn't feel tired at all and I hate going to bed and just lying there. I usually fall asleep within 30 seconds. I had the leg twitching and spinal madness for 15 minutes. I woke up at 3:30AM and started working. I don't know why.

    I took my daily morning meds.

    Then my anxiety/restlessness kicked in. I did what I typically do when at my desk. I put my head down and just let my legs go to town. I swayed back and forth. It was soothing. Within 15 minutes either the meds kicked in and helped or the restlessness just went away. I think this may have been caused by the combination of lack of sleep, BP, and the detox/WD.

    After an hour I had some trouble concentrating so I played Europa Universalis IV to just let my mind get sucked into another world and not think about a potentially terrible day ahead of me.


    Work didn't turn out so bad. I can become so hyper-focused sometimes. It's good and bad. At 3:30PM I was hit by a wall of fatigue jelly. Bam! It just hit me. So I went home.

    I was happy to see my daughter and I got reinvigorated, played with her for 30 minutes, then worked until 6:45 until dinner.

    I was exhausted and just sat in front of the TV for the rest of the evening until 11PM. I spent an hour with my wife watching Naked and Afraid XL, which took my mind completely off of everything else. I had no anxiety or restlessness.

    I went to bed and fell asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow.

  25. #25
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danidbo9 View Post
    Hi Carlos! I'm glad to see you are doing a little betterish lol. I'm the same way I can get through the day but the nights are the worst.

    So far it's taken me about 4 days to stabilize. This is day 3 at .375. Other than feeling antsy and a little sweaty I'm ok since I woke up and will be taking my dose soon. I look forward to my dose to feel better. Is that weird?
    Not at all. By any means. That is how many people feel. That is how I've lived my life for the last 4 years straight. The first two was abusing opioids, but never to get high -- just enough to feel good and get an edge. They make me so productive. I took "just enough" all the time. Then with the subs, it was all about "just enough" also. And of course, there is no where near the high as with the others, but for me it didn't matter much because I wasn't really using during the first 2 years to get that high. This is my 4th time and my last. The second time I abused I did take it daily but only took a little more on weekends to feel a little high.


    Quote Originally Posted by Danidbo9 View Post
    Ok. My RLS is like this. I will be lying on the couch watching tv and all of a sudden my legs will start to twitch or jerk. So I will change position and then the same thing happens. Then I start to get it in my arms. I can't sleep or get comfortable and it makes me crazy! I start thinking about how bad I feel and I get anxious and irritated at myself for being in that position!
    I know what you mean about getting irritated with yourself. It doesn't make it better. I even start getting angry at myself and will just get up and do something productive to counter-balance the useless state I am in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Danidbo9 View Post
    The best way I can describe my anxiety is this. I feel like I am a can of soda and someone shook the can real hard and when you open it it sprays everywhere!! Well I feel like I'm the shaken can waiting to be opened and spray everywhere. Does that make sense? I feel all jittery and I have a ton of energy and I can't get myself to do anything. Or I think of 10 things I want to do and I'm lucky if I get 1 done. I feel like I breath more rapidly and I can't sit still.

    I see a psych and he has me on Zoloft 100mgs in am and Lamictal 200mg at night. He doesn't know I am on subs because I started them myself 2 weeks ago because I wanted to get off of my raging Percocet habit of a year or so.... This time around. I was hoping to be off them by now. Do you think I should tell him? He didn't know I was on the percs for the past year. Let me know your opinion.

    How are you doing today? I hope you are feeling better!
    I take 400mg lamictal (along with the rest of witch's brew I listed at the top of this thread). Normally, you should tell your psych. They know what people do and why. With BP, it is very common to be addicted to drugs. It is a high percentage especially with BP I. The chemicals are so F'd up that certain drugs, especially opioids, help with that balance. In fact, there has not only been research, but there has been treatment actually using opioids. No thanks. I am way too susceptible.

    If you are on 0..375 you are getting close! Don't rush too fast. I'd say stick to your schedule. What is it? There are awesome systems on these boards that people use and have been successful with. I used my own and it let me speed things up a lot! (It's up at the top of this post.)

    At what point do you plan on jumping off?

    Good luck!

  26. #26
    carloscipher is offline Junior Member
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    Default Day 12, Thursday Morning

    Morning

    I just had to write this. I feel great. I slept for a good 6h 30m and I woke up pumped! I jumped out of bed at 5:30AM (like I used to do right when I woke up) and was thrilled to start my day! No anxiety. No restlessness. I started in on taking care of chores and some quick work, then decided to write about the last few days on this post.

    I really hope this is the tail end of the Phase II (the way I've always personally defined it). That would be great.


    My Phases

    • Phase 0: the build up to peak WD
    • Phase I: the peak and the downward slide; the bad part. The sickness and anxiety and other physical manifestations.
    • Phase II: the aftermath. No more restless and anxiety, but the longer period where I just feel a little more tired and weak than usual.
    • Phase III: the long road. Physical symptoms are gone but the psychological part of dependence and that missing comfort is gone. Brain is relearning its chemical balance. The inward feeling of not being 100% myself.



    With short-acting opioids it usually took this long. Intensity varied depending on whether I quit cold turkey (obviously) or some somewhat quick taper (IMO, like 1 or 2 months) usually from a dose of like 120mg hydro/vic per day.
    • Phase 0: 2.5 days
    • Phase I: 4 -5 days
    • Phase II: 2 - 3 weeks
    • Phase III: 2 - 3 months



    With subs, it's been different and I actually think that Phase III will be much shorter due to having used a partial agonist and having tapered to lower levels where not all my receptors were filled. At least, I am hoping.

  27. #27
    Danidbo9 is offline Member
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    Hi Carlos! Glad to hear you are hanging in there! I'm hanging in its my first day at .25. So far just some minor bathroom issues and a little achy calves. My psych upped my Lamictal to 300mg at night and put me on Klonipin but I'm afraid to take it. .5 3x a day. Have you taken this? I hope you're feeling a little better! Keep it up you can do it! Let me know how it goes

  28. #28
    Danidbo9 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by carloscipher View Post
    Not at all. By any means. That is how many people feel. That is how I've lived my life for the last 4 years straight. The first two was abusing opioids, but never to get high -- just enough to feel good and get an edge. They make me so productive. I took "just enough" all the time. Then with the subs, it was all about "just enough" also. And of course, there is no where near the high as with the others, but for me it didn't matter much because I wasn't really using during the first 2 years to get that high. This is my 4th time and my last. The second time I abused I did take it daily but only took a little more on weekends to feel a little high.




    I know what you mean about getting irritated with yourself. It doesn't make it better. I even start getting angry at myself and will just get up and do something productive to counter-balance the useless state I am in.




    I take 400mg lamictal (along with the rest of witch's brew I listed at the top of this thread). Normally, you should tell your psych. They know what people do and why. With BP, it is very common to be addicted to drugs. It is a high percentage especially with BP I. The chemicals are so F'd up that certain drugs, especially opioids, help with that balance. In fact, there has not only been research, but there has been treatment actually using opioids. No thanks. I am way too susceptible.

    If you are on 0..375 you are getting close! Don't rush too fast. I'd say stick to your schedule. What is it? There are awesome systems on these boards that people use and have been successful with. I used my own and it let me speed things up a lot! (It's up at the top of this post.)

    At what point do you plan on jumping off?

    Good luck!
    Hi Carlos!

    Today is day 1 at .25. I'm doing ok. I'm using the taper method. Going down around every 4 days. My psych wound up upping my Lamictal to 300 mgs and put me on Klonipin 3 times a day. I'm afraid of Klonipin though. I plan to either jump after I skip days at .25 or taper to .125 and then skip. Will see how it goes. Are you feeling any better yet? It was nice to be out with my family and watch my son walking on the boardwalk for the first time! Definately help take my mind off things which is what I need. Hope you are doing well!
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  29. #29
    Danidbo9 is offline Member
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    Hi Carlos hope all is well! Just wanted to see how you were doing

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