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Taking the Courage to ask for help with sub taper
  1. #1
    David256 is offline Member
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    Lightbulb Taking the Courage to ask for help with sub taper

    Hi all, Dave here. I’m actually a recovering addict and alcoholic. I’ve been free from illicit drugs and alcohol for 6 years. I then had multiple fractures, surgeries and pain after a car crash that then put me on Norco, Vicodin and the rest. I finally detoxed in 2013 and was placed on Suboxone, I’m not proud to say I’ve been on it for so long, the years just kept passing. I must say I’m grateful as it stabilized me and gave me confidence that I didn’t need to score on the street when my scripts ran out—so not proud of that fact. I myself never followed Dr. orders for 8 mg/ day which I felt was overkill. I feel like many of you that I’m not really ‘clean’ until I’m off this crud.
    I’m so committed to taper off suboxone and I see how much you’re helping others, I need motivation.
    Here’s my progress. I really can’t say how much exactly I’m on daily, as I cut off smaller strips, but from cutting up 8mg strip, I’m on no more than 1-2mg/day. It’s been this way for about 6 months, I only take dose in morning and 3pm, used to take another 1mg at night but I was able to drop that and be OK. Things in life are stable, great even. It is SO frustrating that I can’t taper more, until 3 days ago I dropped down to .75mg and WHOA. Stomach problems, anxiety, irritability. Beginning taper was not unbearable until I woke up and can’t sleep, makes me want to just take more but I’m committed. I’ve read multiple posts from Robert325 and many others here and the taper schedule. Am I tapering too fast, or maybe jumped to .75mg too quickly, I’m perhaps impatient.
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  2. #2
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey Dave. Welcome to the forum. I see you mentioned Robert_325 but have you read the sub taper plan. It's the top thread marked sticky in this sub forum. Give it a good read (I'd do it twice) It calls for 25% reductions every 4-7 days until you're down to .25mg. Yes point 25. Subs are crazy strong. That taper plan has helped thousands of members get clean. I can't really add more right now but I'll be back in a little bit.

    Just wanted to say welcome!!

    Beef
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  3. #3
    Beefaroni7272 is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey Dave. Ok, so you said you've been taking 1-2mg a day. Just so you know there's a BIG difference from 1-2 mg of subs. I'd say find a dose whatever that may be that youre stable on and split it and take them 8-10 hours apart. For example let's just say you start at 1.5 mg. So in the morning you would take .75 mg and 8-10 hours later take another .75 mg and that would be your initial dose. The in four days drop down to 1.125mg. Split the dose for am and pm and stay there until hours stable. 4-7 days. Rinse and repeat until you're at least at .25 mg.

    It's also important that you start dosing once daily when you get under 1mg. And when you get ready to jump the skipping days process is very helpful. It allows the long half life of suboxone to catch up and dissipate in your body. Making for a softer landing.

    Have you seen the Thomas recipe for opiate withdrawal. I still haven't figured out how to drop a link on my phone but you can Google it. Id leave out the benzos though unless youre already taking them under a doctors supervision. They are highly addictive and you dont want to go trading one for the other. And there is also a YouTube video from former member Harry smooth which shows how to cut the subs so you are certain that you get the correct dose.

    Hope this helps some. Ask as many questions as you need to. I'm sure other members will be by to give you more suggestions. I'm sure I missed something but that's ok. Someone will pick up my slack.

    Congratulations and I hope you have a great day!

    Beef

  4. #4
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by David256 View Post
    Hi all, Dave here. I’m actually a recovering addict and alcoholic. I’ve been free from illicit drugs and alcohol for 6 years. I then had multiple fractures, surgeries and pain after a car crash that then put me on Norco, Vicodin and the rest. I finally detoxed in 2013 and was placed on Suboxone, I’m not proud to say I’ve been on it for so long, the years just kept passing. I must say I’m grateful as it stabilized me and gave me confidence that I didn’t need to score on the street when my scripts ran out—so not proud of that fact. I myself never followed Dr. orders for 8 mg/ day which I felt was overkill. I feel like many of you that I’m not really ‘clean’ until I’m off this crud.
    I’m so committed to taper off suboxone and I see how much you’re helping others, I need motivation.
    Here’s my progress. I really can’t say how much exactly I’m on daily, as I cut off smaller strips, but from cutting up 8mg strip, I’m on no more than 1-2mg/day. It’s been this way for about 6 months, I only take dose in morning and 3pm, used to take another 1mg at night but I was able to drop that and be OK. Things in life are stable, great even. It is SO frustrating that I can’t taper more, until 3 days ago I dropped down to .75mg and WHOA. Stomach problems, anxiety, irritability. Beginning taper was not unbearable until I woke up and can’t sleep, makes me want to just take more but I’m committed. I’ve read multiple posts from Robert325 and many others here and the taper schedule. Am I tapering too fast, or maybe jumped to .75mg too quickly, I’m perhaps impatient.


    Hi Dave -

    Yep, slow down a bit as this shouldn't; be a race. Slow and steady will make this much more pleasant.

    Here's the link to Robert's Sub Plan below....

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone...tml#post436333

    Read it over as it's what we follow closely.

    Randy

  5. #5
    David256 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy35 View Post
    Hi Dave -

    Yep, slow down a bit as this shouldn't; be a race. Slow and steady will make this much more pleasant.

    Here's the link to Robert's Sub Plan below....

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/suboxone...tml#post436333

    Read it over as it's what we follow closely.

    Randy
    Feeling much better today. Started back at 1.5mg, slow and steady. I have a bunch of choices for sleep and anxiety, some that many won’t recommend here, but I’m under the care of a Pdoc. I do take clonazepam prn, ambient also. I have Traz and Seroquel leftover. I’m actually a neuropsychologist and understand psychopharmacology more than most. The half-life and ‘stickiness’ of sub on opiate receptors is amazing. I really wanted (would not of course) to take naltrexone and wash all the opiate off, and dump into withdrawal...that’s how I’m sure many of us want to be done with this. Wish I could get catapres as that worked well during my inpatient detox days. Even at where I’m at I just feel better and maybe others can share their libido comes back? It’s like I’m coming back to life.

  6. #6
    10years39days is offline Member
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    Just an FYI, during my acute withdrawals I found tons of success with Ondansetron. This nausea medicine seema to have a way of drowning out some of the symptoms. Typical dosing is 8mg every 8 hours, but I found some reports that every 6 hours is okay.

    You would know better than me ;-)

  7. #7
    David256 is offline Member
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    Thnaks for the tip, don’t want to come off as pretentious. Just because I knew possibly more than some about neurobiology, I’m still an addict who is simply fascinated by it, a victim of it and desirous of leaving it out of my life.

  8. #8
    Wavision is offline Member
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    Hey David, it looks like we are pretty much in the same boat as far as where we are with our taper. Today is my 2nd day at 1.25, so we are going through this together.

    I started at 3mg and so far have been able to drop down every 4 days. However, if times get tough especially under 1mg, I plan to take it as slow as needed in order to make the final jump as easy as possible. I also plan to taper down as far as I possibly can and also include the skip days as mentioned in the taper plan.

    Anyway, good luck and realize there are others right there alone side you going through this.

  9. #9
    David256 is offline Member
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    Fantastic Wa,
    Glad to find someone one similar footing. We are in this together. I’m on 1.25mg today and feeling good now. I understand the temptation to take a large dose to go backwards, I’m glad I’m so focused...proud of myself actually.

    The wd effects I felt after jumping down too much (I was dishonest with myself that I was really taking 2mg/day and hoped I could do .75 with little issue and half life bit me 3 days in as I mention in my OP). I’m exercising 45 min/day, and I’m sure that helps. I usually wake up around 6am, take a dose of .50mg & that helps me go back to sleep for a bit then .50mg late afternoon. Right before bed I take the .25mg. I need to level out the dosing still as I get uncomfortable when the anxiety comes, knowing a small dose with put it at bay, but still keeping within my taper.
    Let me know your progress and I’ll do the same!
    -D
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  10. #10
    Walkley822 is offline Member
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    Hi David, I saw you know quite a bit about neurobiology. Very impressive. It’s not every day you find people that really understand it. I’m also tapering and on day 4 at 1.4mgs and about to jump to 1mg soon. I’m finding I have to spend about 6 days at each dose before redusing and wavision is lapping me like crazy ;-) Anyway, slow and steady wins this race. I’m in the same boat too. Good luck and update us on your progress!

  11. #11
    Wavision is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by David256 View Post
    Fantastic Wa,
    Glad to find someone one similar footing. We are in this together. I’m on 1.25mg today and feeling good now. I understand the temptation to take a large dose to go backwards, I’m glad I’m so focused...proud of myself actually.

    The wd effects I felt after jumping down too much (I was dishonest with myself that I was really taking 2mg/day and hoped I could do .75 with little issue and half life bit me 3 days in as I mention in my OP). I’m exercising 45 min/day, and I’m sure that helps. I usually wake up around 6am, take a dose of .50mg & that helps me go back to sleep for a bit then .50mg late afternoon. Right before bed I take the .25mg. I need to level out the dosing still as I get uncomfortable when the anxiety comes, knowing a small dose with put it at bay, but still keeping within my taper.
    Let me know your progress and I’ll do the same!
    -D
    Good to hear you're doing good. I know what you mean about the dosing. I currently take.625 in the morning around 10-11 and then take the other.625 at night around 8pm.

    I'm mentally preparing myself for when I get below 1mg, as it is recommended that you only dose once a day when under 1mg.

    I think this is when it's going to start getting a little tough and the days between drops may begin to expand. However, it will all be worth it in the end and we can all celebrate together.

    I have my own thread here, so I will pop in and keep up with how you're doing. Good luck

  12. #12
    Wavision is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walkley822 View Post
    Hi David, I saw you know quite a bit about neurobiology. Very impressive. It’s not every day you find people that really understand it. I’m also tapering and on day 4 at 1.4mgs and about to jump to 1mg soon. I’m finding I have to spend about 6 days at each dose before redusing and wavision is lapping me like crazy ;-) Anyway, slow and steady wins this race. I’m in the same boat too. Good luck and update us on your progress!
    Walkley, you're getting your flat tire changed and will be right there with us in the end

    You've had some things going on lately, so it's understandable its taking you a little longer. It doesn't matter how long it takes, it just matters that we finish.

    The finish line is in sight for all of us.

  13. #13
    David256 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walkley822 View Post
    Hi David, I saw you know quite a bit about neurobiology. Very impressive. It’s not every day you find people that really understand it. I’m also tapering and on day 4 at 1.4mgs and about to jump to 1mg soon. I’m finding I have to spend about 6 days at each dose before redusing and wavision is lapping me like crazy ;-) Anyway, slow and steady wins this race. I’m in the same boat too. Good luck and update us on your progress!
    Walk-I am fascinated by neurochemistry, though I don't understand all of it. Glad to hear you're focusing on reducing your dose also. It has to be harm reduction also, even if you-we have to be patient with ourselves and stay at a dose longer than we may want to. We seem to have the same mantra-patience!
    I'm often worried that the sub is helping mask pain I've had since my car accident, but that's probably just my addiction talking. I have such good support and things are good in my life, so I'm just glad I have now to do this. Keep it up!

  14. #14
    David256 is offline Member
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    Hit 1 week today, actually this is day 8 on my Sub taper and past my 2nd day of 1.25mg. All my w/d side effects when I went with .75mg/ day too quickly have gone away. Stabilized at 1.5mg, then down to 1.25mg for 4-5 days. I’m really doing well. Sleep is good actually, pieceing together 8-9 hours with help from clonopin & ambien. I keep to a limited dose, actually .25mg of clonaz and 5mg of Zolp.
    I too believe in watching other addictive items, I’ve tried Traz (older antidepressant with sedative properties) and Hydroxyzine (acts on histamine, is actually an antihistamine just like active ingredient in Tylenol PM is Benadryl), but was so knocked out it made my anxiety worse, worthless throughout day and my therapist is on me about being functional. I have an underlying anxiety disorder that needs to be closely monitored so I see a PDoc and therapist weekly. My PDoc has little enthusiasm over a taper plan, he had me at 8mg/day and I’ve seen some people at 3x that dose who were hard H users. Way overkill, I and many others have been fine with 3-4mg. I saw him yesterday and he was supportive, albeit surprised, I got down to 1.25mg knowing how small the slivers are. He balked at Subutex, and I get that, he’s the MD. He’s detoxed many and focused on the fact that I can take the initiative for my recovery, I felt empowered by that.
    Maybe many of you can recall, but I’ve used Sub to take a nap, at night to sleep, and after waking up had SO much energy—believe the nalox wore out and the bup took over. Opiates are that way. I actually began my taper from 3mg down to 2mg by simply skipping the night dose. That was 4 months ago, getting finally off is why I’m here now.
    As a recovery forum I don’t want to act or condone addictive behavior and took to heart Randy’s believes on multiple dosing throughout the day. I’ve worked in recovery and need to practice what I preach.
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    Walkley822 is offline Member
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    David, I think you’re going to be extremely successful if you follow the taper plan and Randy’s advice. You have the right mindset and your destined for greatness! How are you feeling on 1.25? I’m actually just starting 1.2 today. So looking forward to getting to the 1.0mg marker! We’re getting close!

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    David256 is offline Member
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    I didn’t have that great of a day as it went on. 3rd day of 1.25m and if I’m honest I took another .50m this evening as I got worse. I think the half-life is kicking me so I’m gonna stick to 1.5mg for another 3 days. I assume it’s halflife, an initial erratic dosage and norbup. As been directed I don’t want the effects to chase me down the taper. Each of us is individual. Not sure actually if I can bring down to 1.25m again?
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  17. #17
    Randy35 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by David256 View Post
    I didn’t have that great of a day as it went on. 3rd day of 1.25m and if I’m honest I took another .50m this evening as I got worse. I think the half-life is kicking me so I’m gonna stick to 1.5mg for another 3 days. I assume it’s halflife, an initial erratic dosage and norbup. As been directed I don’t want the effects to chase me down the taper. Each of us is individual. Not sure actually if I can bring down to 1.25m again?

    Hi David -

    You don't want to get in a habit of RAISING your dose. And taking .5mg is a LOT of sub seeing as how powerful it is. I know WHY you did it, but just keep following the taper plan. Try your best to push through those moments when you aren't feeling 100% as it always passes given a little time.

    For now remain on 1.5mg and STAY there until you have 4 days in a row of being stable with little or no wd's. Once that happens then go ahead and reduce back to 1.25mg and repeat that process until you're down to at least .25mg daily.

    Randy
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  18. #18
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
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    Morning David - don't sweat it, we all stumble along the way. You're doing great.

    Like Randy said - restabilize at one dose before moving back down.

    But quick question - you said something along the lines of "the day was going downhill" or "things got worse" I think? What "got worse?" What were your symptoms in those moments leading up to the decision to take a 0.5?

    If you can identify and verbalize them on to the page it should help you be better prepared for when they at some point in the taper later return.

    For some of us each stabilization under 2mg takes a bit longer...and starts kicking up the anxiety and fatigue. But once you know that's what's coming, you can relax a bit more, just knowing it's part of the deal and will pass in time. Hope that helps.
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  19. #19
    David256 is offline Member
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    Thanks Leo & Randy,
    At 1.5mg today, felt so much better today doing it. I will stick to this dose for a minimum of 4 days, I may feel better with confidence to taper back down. I feel this shouldn’t be easy, but want to feel consistently well enough on each step down so I can fathom weeks of a taper. I must be an addict as I don’t like being uncomfortable. I’ve been handling it better than I’ve had in years past, hence why I’m here now.
    Yesterday started with just a ‘weird’ feeling and the doses wouldn’t stop the escalating chest-deep anxiety, lethargy and stomach issues. Sleep wasn’t good that day and I was just in my head—ditched my workout. I’m surprised how a seemingly small .25 or .50mg changes things. Today I don’t feel like a backslide, I don’t have the — it’s, I feel better and I need to function. I’m more empowered by your support and knowing the signs to steady the course and know what gets me in trouble.
    -D
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  20. #20
    David256 is offline Member
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    Doing well these past days, stable at 1.5mg. It was strange seeing how little I’ve used since I started taper process 13 days ago. Just opened 3rd 8mg package. Used to burn thru a package every 2-3 days. My initial use was erratic, many times just wreckless about cutting the strip. It’s nice to just finally monitor my dose & focus on one daily dose, Am Pm.
    Looking to drop to 1.25m on Sunday which will give me a solid 5-6 days of same dose.

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    Walkley822 is offline Member
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    David you’re doing awesome!!! Congrats on the progress and being ready for 1.25. Reducing is such a great feeling, right? I think dropping from 1.5 to 1.25 is the best thing one can do during the taper. It allows you to land at 1.0 safely and without any major issues. Im so glad I did that myself. I thought about dropping from 1.4 to 1.0 and decided it would be too risky and I was right. Anyway, congrats again. Keep posting so I know how you’re doing!

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    Wavision is offline Member
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    Good job David and smart decision to get nice and stable before dropping. Take it as slow as you need to and it will pay off hopefully in the end.

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    thefigurehead is offline Member
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    Hi - Sounds like you are getting more precise now that you are at such a low dose. That is really good. I used to just eyeball my dose, too! That was silly of me. I use scissors and a ruler now to measure my dose, which seems my better.

    Good luck with your drop, and try not to think about it. They say 90% is mental!


    Tim

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    David256 is offline Member
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    Tim,
    So right on mental part. The side effects can be moderate and a normal day to day feeling but we all focus on it because we feel it must be because of the taper. Looking forward to dropping down to 1.25m tomorrow. Got 2 of those pill holders and cut up 1 mg strips and other has .25m cuts...so darn small I’ve lost a couple that got blown away. Also got liquid Imodium. I know the chemical makeup of anti-diarrhea drugs come from opiate chemical structure. Strange how clever that is.
    Mental part for me is deep into a day 3 of any drop. Now I’m feeling stable at a dose I’m not apprehensive at all.
    -David
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    thefigurehead is offline Member
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    I am always afraid of the Immodium because I don't want to get stopped up. But I read over and over how much it helps. Maybe once I jump I will give it a shot, but I will avoid it until them.

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    Hi David! I’m so happy to hear you’re doing well and stable! Awesome news. I love to report when I’m stable. I’ve noticed that our taper experience seems similar. My hardest day has typically been day 3 as well however as I graduate to the lower doses, the hard days are starting to creep toward days 1 and 2. And about the immodium. You have had stomach issues during your taper like me and I too have decided against Imodium until I jump (unless it gets out of control toward the end which may very well happen so then I’ll use it.) I just want to play it safe because I’ve heard things about Imodium not crossing the blood brain barrier however I’ve also heard that it does. Plus I’d rather keep things moving. So what if I have to drink more water. Anyway, congrats on your progress so far. Soon you’ll be at 1mg!

  27. #27
    thefigurehead is offline Member
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    Default Zzzzzzzz

    I just tried a cup of sleepy time tea. It is 90% probably mental, but I think it calmed me down a wee bit. The brand I got is called Yogi. Tasted caramelly not too bitter, though. I tend to do my worst at night, so I am loading up on stuff to relax me before bed.

    So you experience bad day usually the 3rd day after a drop? I am a bit quicker and feel it the next day. Wonder if that is a metabolism thing ?

    I was reading an old thread today about a girl named lisa that didn't really have any symptoms the first 5 days to a week. How nice would that be?

    I am at .25mg and have decided to taper, taper, taper down to almost nothing. Can't hurt, can it? It was Randy's idea... then Beef said to def do skip days, so I will be doing those, too.

    All this good info! Makes me feel like I have a fighting chance. We all do.

    Be well...

    Tim
    Last edited by Anonymous; 01-29-2018 at 10:56 PM.

  28. #28
    David256 is offline Member
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    Taper taper to a soft landing! Ending day 2 on 1.25 and I’ve got a busy day tomorrow so less likely I’ll be distracted by any side effects. Been stable otherwise. Haven’t really needed any Imodium, just thought it would be good to have. Exercise has really made the difference as my anxiety in general is better, but always a challenge. Sleep has started to be a little less lately, but I don’t feel tired. My hunger is higher, but exercise likely is the reason.
    I do think I’m now really on a taper since I allowed my body to stabilize on lower doses and a solid 6 days on 1.5mg. Could be
    Metabolism Fig—all your progress is inspiring!
    -D
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  29. #29
    Walkley822 is offline Member
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    David, great job so far! You’re getting really close to the 1mg mark. When do you plan to start single dosing?

  30. #30
    Droppinthepoppy is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by David256 View Post
    Feeling much better today. Started back at 1.5mg, slow and steady. I have a bunch of choices for sleep and anxiety, some that many won’t recommend here, but I’m under the care of a Pdoc. I do take clonazepam prn, ambient also. I have Traz and Seroquel leftover. I’m actually a neuropsychologist and understand psychopharmacology more than most. The half-life and ‘stickiness’ of sub on opiate receptors is amazing. I really wanted (would not of course) to take naltrexone and wash all the opiate off, and dump into withdrawal...that’s how I’m sure many of us want to be done with this. Wish I could get catapres as that worked well during my inpatient detox days. Even at where I’m at I just feel better and maybe others can share their libido comes back? It’s like I’m coming back to life.
    Oh my god yes my libido came back. And I started to be able to urinate again instead of a trickle. I could smell everything too! Didn’t realize how much my sense of smell had gone. It is a POWERFUL drug. I’m on day 83 today and I can’t believe I’m free from that beast. Hang in there bro. It gets much better and the only way past it is through it.
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