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Waiting for WD to kick in, have subs ready, nervous
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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Unhappy Waiting for WD to kick in, have subs ready, nervous

    Hello Everyone, (If you prefer to skip my background introduction and get right to the nitty gritty you can scroll down to the >>>>>>>>>>> mark)

    I've been a long time lurker. I have to admit the ONLY reason I have the balls to try and kick this is knowing that this place and you all exist. That's no small thing, so in advance of anyone offering one iota of help to me I want to thank you all. Seeing all the time and effort Robert put in here before he retired is astounding, and everyone else continues to contribute are giving me the strength to move forward with this decision.

    A little history about me I suffered a back injury in 2010 and had several surgeries. Initially my doctors had me on Percocet 10/325 6 times a day. But my liver enzymes went off the charts. So they made a change, Roxicodone 15's 6 times a day. That's where things took a turn for me. One night my back pain was so bad , I mean SOOOO bad... I couldn't deal with waiting 15-20 minutes for relief. So I crushed up the pill and snorted it. Not sure where I even got the idea, but I told myself it would work that much faster. Well, it did. And I never went back to swallowing them ever again after that night. The problem was that yes it worked faster but lasted less time. So you can just imagine the snowball effect that had over several years.

    In the last few years I've kind of lost control. I can get a script for 180 Roxie's and blow through them all in a week. Then I'm left with nothing. Not a good situation to say the least.

    Somehow, despite everything - I've managed to Do extremely well in my career. I've got a great new promotion recently and am afraid continued narcotic use will eventually make me lose everything. I need to take control of my life back. My biggest fear is some type of natural disaster and not being able to go to the doctor or pharmacy and be in a situation where I need pills and can't get them.... and then he forced into WD with no help.

    >>>>>>>>>>

    So to fast forward here I am, I went into the doctor yesterday (After blowing through all my pills in a week and having no stash or back up option) and told him I want out. I was lucky to get the emergency same day appointment with the ONE non-judgy doctor in the practice. He was very supportive of my decision to stop taking the narcotics. He wrote me a script for Suboxone 8mg twice a day, one in the AM and one in the PM. Stressed to wait 24 hours after last narcotic dose and then take the first dose. He said taking earlier than 24 hours would mean that the narcan would make my life hell. He gave me a two week supply initially so I'm going back in two weeks with a follow up. He also gave me a fairly generous script for Clonidine to help with sleeping and just to help during the first 24 hours? Not sure what that means?

    So I stayed home from work yesterday(Thursday) and today (Friday). I had a random Fentanyl patch 25mcg leftover and I put that on yesterday when I realized I had no Oxy left and when I went to talk to the doc. Wasn't sure I was going to even get an appointment that's why I put it on. So he said to wait 24 hours after last dose of narcotics. Well I just removed the fent patch this morning Friday at 8am. I need to do this induction over the weekend and I hope I am not being unreasonable to expect to be stable enough to return to work Monday morning. Do you think that's doable? I have done a considerable amount of reading on here and I'm a bit nervous about me trying to calculate my score of a 26. I don't know how to calculate my pulse and stuff like that. Any tips? Also, how am I supposed to get my 8mg strip into the smaller sizes for the initial induction? A razor blade? How can I be precise? I guess my biggest fear is wondering just how bad I am going to have to get before I can start taking the Sub. Do you think it will actually be 24 hours of hell before I can take it? I have somewhat tapered my use of narcotics in the last several weeks. I don't know how significant a difference that will make considering I've had opioid exposure basically continually since 2010. Have not used any other drugs besides what was prescribed (meaning no H, or other street drugs, never injected anything. thought about it when I had a script for Dilaudid but never did it).

    Sorry for so many questions. I am going to go back and re-read Roberts plans on the sticky thread. But any help or guidance you all can offer me would be so truly appreciated. I'm nervous and excited all at the same time, I know this is the right decision for me and it's nice to not feel alone in the process. My spouse is incredibly supportive - but doesn't truly know how it feels. I know that I should not take 8mg twice a day as was prescribed, that I am going to follow the plan here to find the lowest effective dose. Just hoping to get some guidance as the induction phase confuses (and scares) me slightly.

    Thanks again in advance. I'm here at home and basically now just waiting for the WD Symptoms to start. Have to admit, that scares me a bit.

    Fiks

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Hey, I was in the same position you were 2 weeks ago.... deciding to go on subs.

    The fentanyl patch complicates things. I am not familiar with how long fentanyl patches take to wear off after you take them off. However, I do believe fentanyl is a short acting opiate (very short acting) so time should start ticking the moment you take it off like it was a regular opiate pill.

    To calculate your pulse, check your pulse on ur wrist, count it up in 10 seconds, and multiply by 6. That's it.


    You have to be in WD before you take subs, that is why they say score a 26 just to be sure.

    As for how you will feel, everyone is different. Some ppl report instant relief on subs after a couple hours. Some ppl take a couple days to adjust but invariably feel well after a week. I was the latter. I'm not talking about full blown withdrawal symptoms, I'm taking about like just feeling mild blah with lethargy and fatigue and really not wanting to get out of bed.

    One of the big things you have to adjust to is life without opiates. You say you have been very successful at work - not surprising. One of the big things I realized this past 2 week was how much I relied on them for everything - took one just to shower, to go out, when someone was coming over took one before he/she arrived, etc. Was able to pull 2-4hour nights of sleep and work without problems, extra energy whenever I needed it, it is basically a bottle of artificial brain happiness sitting there whenever you need it.

    The physical symptoms will go away. Subs work. There is basically no such thing as subs not working. However, you have to be mentally prepared for the fact that subs will NOT make you feel like how you felt on opiates. You will feel "normal" but alot of us have forgotten what that feels like and it is a difficult adjustment.

    So, bottom line is, subs work. Trust the subs to stop your symptoms. YOu have to go through 24 hours of unpleasantness. Everyone pays the piper. There is no cake and eat it too, period. You cannot snap your fingers and make this problem go away with a magical medication of subs.

    You will be able to work Monday. It might be alot of lethargy and fatigue, but nothing like full blown withdrawals once you induct properly on subs. These 2.5 days will be enough to put you into sufficient withdrawals to induct on subs.

    Stick to the Robert plan. DO NOT underestimate how powerful subs are. It will be very unlikely you will need more than 4-6mg to stabilize.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 11:51 AM.
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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Ask tons of questions, report here on how you are doing, check out my thread it is a very good hour by hour play by play of what I went through.
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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I forgot one thing... I just re-read your story and realized you were put on pain meds for legitimate pain issues, and one day the pain was so bad you changed to snorting.


    What will be the plan for the pain if you go off the opiates? Is the back pain still a daily problem? When you stop opiates, everything in your body flies in the opposite direction - libido goes out of control, mild pain becomes severe pain etc. The subs will help stop these symptoms, but if you have pre-existing chronic back pain that roars back with a vengeance when you come off opiates... is there a plan for this going forward? I hope the answer is the back pain is now not that bad and the opiates have become their own problem.

    Hang in there OK, you got this. You made a great decision to unhook yourself from the opiate prison before significant damage to your personal and professional life.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    The cuts of the strips won't be perfect. Cut them in half, and in half, and in half again and etc you can do the math. Tweezers with razor blades help for the smallest pieces. There are some youtube videos, and if you google image search suboxone cutting or osmething like that you will see pictures of how ppl cut them. Just do the same thing. Remember, this is not rocket science here.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    Yeah, I agree - the hardest part will be adjusting to life without Oxy. But I'm definitely motivated and willing to make the adjustment.

    I think my biggest question thus far is the timing of everything. Hypothetically, let's say that I am in moderately severe WD by tomorrow morning - 24 hours after I removed the patch. I understand the process of using slivers of the film to administer small doses, to stabilize. Let's say it takes 3mg (Just picking a random number). So I will be using 3mg as my "stabilizing dose" ? When will I repeat that dose? That night? And will I do the same thing taking small doses to get to 3mg or would I take 3mg all at once? I think I understand the following days I will equally split the dose AM/PM for a period of 4-5 days. I guess my biggest confusion is for the first day how much and when to take, and then later that day when/if to repeat it.

    Sorry that probably didn't make much sense. It's been about 5 hours since I removed the patch and I still feel "normal". Fortunately, I don't have days/weeks of Fent built up in my system - just the 1 patch that was on for about 36 hours.

    Thanks for all your help. Will check out your thread, and report back.

    Fiks

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    The Robert induction plan... the point is the use the absolute minimal amount of subs possible for the shortest time possible.

    So, once you are feeling bad, take 0.5 or 1mg at a time every 1 to 1.5 hours until you feel fine. Remember, like I said, some ppl take a week to adjust and still have fatigue. This made me take a lot more than I needed trying to make the fatigue go away initially, but that wasa never gonna go away without a couple days time and adjustment to the subs.


    The point is to take slivers until you feel fine. That is your induction dose. The next day, split that dose in half and take it AM and PM. You can adjust +/- these couple days to feel out how much you need to stabilize. Stabilize means feel comfortable at those dose and knowing your brain accepts that dose and feels fine on that dose. Again, remember the first couple days might be an adjustment for your brain and it will feel tired no matter what. Do not confuse that with not enough sub. The other signs will be obvious - the cravings go away, no more runny nose/upset stomach, yawning, teary eyes etc. Those symptoms are what you judge for when you are stabilized on a dose. If you try to make the fatigue and lethargy go away by taking more subs, it might not be your best guide because like I said I felt that for a couple days no matter how much subs I took. Use the other physical symptoms as your guide.

    So, find out your induction dose - how much you need to get out of WD. That is your daily dose. Split that in half on day 2 in order to take 1/2 in the AM and 1/2 in the PM. You can adjust as needed days 2-4 up or down 0.5 to 1mg here and there to smooth things out. Once you hit day 5, start dropping 25% every 4 hours.

    HAve relief in the fact that the beginning is the easiest. A reprieve period. Notice the other threads are like "Spent 2 years on 8mg subs"... and then they spend hunderds of words talking about jumping off of small 0.25mg doses. Notice how they breezed through the first 2 years. Being on higher doses is the easy part. You will have a reprieve coming up. I can't speak on jumping off at 0.25mg doses yet because I'm not there, but since you and me will only be on subs for 1-2 months at most, it should be ALOT easier for us than the others who have been on high dose for years.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 12:17 PM.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    I forgot one thing... I just re-read your story and realized you were put on pain meds for legitimate pain issues, and one day the pain was so bad you changed to snorting.


    What will be the plan for the pain if you go off the opiates? Is the back pain still a daily problem? When you stop opiates, everything in your body flies in the opposite direction - libido goes out of control, mild pain becomes severe pain etc. The subs will help stop these symptoms, but if you have pre-existing chronic back pain that roars back with a vengeance when you come off opiates... is there a plan for this going forward? I hope the answer is the back pain is now not that bad and the opiates have become their own problem.

    Hang in there OK, you got this. You made a great decision to unhook yourself from the opiate prison before significant damage to your personal and professional life.

    I guess the answer is, I don't know. I've had a micro-discectomy and then a 2nd surgery a disc replacement. I've been on the Oxy for so long I guess I don't even know what my true accurate pain level is. Doctors say that long term opioid use can actually amplify the pain signals and make you feel like you're in more pain than you truly are. So yes I feel back pain daily, but I'm not sure if that's from underlying injury/trauma or jacked up brain chemistry.

    I recently had some radio frequency ablasion done on the low back joints... so hopefully that will help with the pain. If not I'm going to ask my pain management doc (who is the one giving me the subs) about non-narcotic options. It's a very good questions, and one that I don't have the answer to. I guess I need to get entirely off the pain meds to reassess my true pain level. I'm in my early 30's so fairly young to be looking at a lifetime of opioid therapy.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiks2017 View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply.

    Yeah, I agree - the hardest part will be adjusting to life without Oxy. But I'm definitely motivated and willing to make the adjustment.

    I think my biggest question thus far is the timing of everything. Hypothetically, let's say that I am in moderately severe WD by tomorrow morning - 24 hours after I removed the patch. I understand the process of using slivers of the film to administer small doses, to stabilize. Let's say it takes 3mg (Just picking a random number). So I will be using 3mg as my "stabilizing dose" ? When will I repeat that dose? That night? And will I do the same thing taking small doses to get to 3mg or would I take 3mg all at once? I think I understand the following days I will equally split the dose AM/PM for a period of 4-5 days. I guess my biggest confusion is for the first day how much and when to take, and then later that day when/if to repeat it.

    Sorry that probably didn't make much sense. It's been about 5 hours since I removed the patch and I still feel "normal". Fortunately, I don't have days/weeks of Fent built up in my system - just the 1 patch that was on for about 36 hours.

    Thanks for all your help. Will check out your thread, and report back.

    Fiks

    If it takes 3mg to stabilize at 4pm saturday, I think it would be OK to take 1.5mg in the AM sunday, and 1.5mg in the PM Sunday. And then Monday do the same thing, adjusting a little bit as needed. You only have to creep up in small increments ONCE - during the induction. You do it that way in order to ensure you have used only the smallest amount of sub you need to control your symptoms. That makes the taper easier. Once you know how much sub your brain needs to make the symptoms go away, you can go straight to taking that amount once a day every 24 hours, or split in half in AM and PM doses.

    So, again, a perfect induction would look like this:

    Saturday at 2pm you feel like >>>>, score a 26. Take 0.5 to 1mg slivers up to 3mg and be done around 5pm and feel OK. Sunday morning take 1.5, Sunday afternooon take 1.5. Do that Monday. Let's say you find out you need 4mg a day instead of 3. Ok, take 2mg AM, 2mg PM. Keep going until you feel like you are in a groove - taking same amount every day for 3-4 days and feeling fine at that dose. Once you can accomplish that, you are ready to drop 25%.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 12:21 PM.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Once you hit day 5, start dropping 25% every 4 hours.
    You do mean days right, not hours? lol

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    If it takes 3mg to stabilize at 4pm saturday, I think it would be OK to take 1.5mg in the AM sunday, and 1.5mg in the PM Sunday. And then Monday do the same thing, adjusting a little bit as needed. You only have to creep up in small increments ONCE - during the induction. You do it that way in order to ensure you have used only the smallest amount of sub you need to control your symptoms. That makes the taper easier.
    Thank you, that answered my question.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 12:20 PM. Reason: quote

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Chronic pain.... be prepared to accept that there are limited options. The FDA recently said they only recommend opiates for short term surgical pain/broken bone pain, and ppl in situations like dying of cancer.

    You can see why, right? Wat happens when healthy ppl take opiates for chronic pain? There is no end game. You keep going up and up on the doses, and the opiate itself becomes a bigger problem than the pain.

    So, what does the FDA recommend for chronic pain in young healthy ppl? Exercise, psychotherapy, yoga, NSAIDS, physical therapy. That's it. There's no sexy answer. Your back is screwed, and it gives you pain. There is no magic answer. Opiates provide shrot term relief at the expense of long term problems. If you are lucky you might have a case amenable to surgery, and if the surgery works, that will be a life saver. Other htan that, not much sexy answers. Look at Tiger Woods. He can't come back from the back pain. Look at what he's lost. His doctors don't have magical answers for him anymore than your doctor will for you. He had surgery that didn't work, hopefully your procedures turn out differently.

    Doctors are finally realizing this, and that is why there's a big rubber band effect as they used to give out opiates like crazy whenever ppl complained, but now we see the problems. >>>>>> coming back in the news as ppl once on pills can't get hem and are still hooked, etc.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 12:28 PM.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    What did you do when you blew thru 180 pills in a week? How did you make it through the WD's then... What is that.. 3 weeks before you could get a new refill?

    Surely in these past 7 years without access to street drugs, you've had to go through 24 hours of WD running out early, right?

    The tone of that isn't meant to be accusatory. Just wondering how you were able to cope thru some WD's in the past 7 years of your opiate use if you could run out of a month's suppply in a week.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    What did you do when you blew thru 180 pills in a week? How did you make it through the WD's then... What is that.. 3 weeks before you could get a new refill?

    Surely in these past 7 years without access to street drugs, you've had to go through 24 hours of WD running out early, right?

    The tone of that isn't meant to be accusatory. Just wondering how you were able to cope thru some WD's in the past 7 years of your opiate use if you could run out of a month's suppply in a week.
    I probably wasn't too clear in my first post. I didn't always blow through my supply in a week. Just recently did it really start to spiral out of control. Over the last several years if I didn't use all my medication, I saved it. So if I went through my whole script in a week... I would ration out what I had saved away to get me to my next appointment. It was always enough to just barely scrape by. Well, not this time. It was an embarrassment to be in that situation, and I think it was the reality check that I needed - it was no way to live. Always looking forward to that next "Fill date" just to take way more on the first two days to "make up for" not having enough the previous two weeks. VICIOUS cycle. One that I will be happy to retire. With the type of work I am in, I really can't be taking any chances with stuff like this. I need to get straight. The fact that I've gone this long and haven't ended up in a world of trouble is a miracle.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    We are both in similar situations. The biggest thing for me was a combination of the two - always wondering where my next supply would come from, panicking if my suppliers wouldn't be available, and also all the money I was spending on it (which is less of an issue with you it seems) coupled with the fact that I would be able to take like 20 pills and not feel anything. That was when I realized the prison was too much to handle.

    I ended up losing my job, which was also a wake up call. It wasn't because of this stuff, but I felt like perhaps doing the opiates made me happy and neglect certain things about my job that ended up getting me in trouble. For example, I would always do my job well, stay late, work extra hours, but when I had to do like mandatory compliance paperwork I wouldn't do it - I would always be happy in a good mood, thinking "yaaa... ill just do that next week itll be all OK. I feel good right now." and that was what got me in trouble. Nobody at my old job would say I was bad at my work - I was probably the hardest worker there, but I ignored other stuff and it got me into problems which ultimately led to my losing my job.

    Again, I am happy for your choice.

    The next week might be rough - up and down days with energy levels, fatigue, sleep, but otherwise should not be any cravings for opioids and no other physical symptoms.

    You have to want this more than anything. You also have to be prepared that you have mentally accepted that you've already had your last dose of opioid. That it is never ocming back, and that you will never feel like you felt on opioids again if you are really ready to start on subs now. It took me a good 2-3 days of wishy washy, delaying my start of subs, as I took the jump and realized one day that what I had in my hand was literally the very last time I would ever use an opioid. It was a scary thought. Have you given consideration to the fact that you will never be on pills again? I guess you already cut off your connection - your doctor now knows and is putting you on subs, and you have no other hookups. That already is a victory. HUGE victory. It sounds like you can't even get any opioids anymore if you wanted to now. If you have any of them lying around - extra emergency supply - think about what you want to do with them. Flush them now if you can. I know that is a scary thought. If you can't bring yourself to do that, then that is OK. There will be a time hopefully when you are ready to make that move.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Your doctor I believe is right in saying opiates can actually amplify pain signals.

    Let's say you need 15mg of oxycodone at the start to feel normal and make the pain go away. You lose control and eventually you need 60mg of oxycodone just to start your day and keep you out of withdrawals. And then it becomes 120mg oxycodone a day. What you will find is if you go back to 60mg of oxycodone suddenly, versus a previous requirement of 120mg, your body won't feel good. Any mild pain will be amplified. It is used to 120mg to feel normal and pain free, but if you give it 60mg it won't be happy and pain will return as well as aches and myalgias. Now, you've gone from that initial 15mg to control your back pain symptoms, to taking 60mg and having back pain because your body needs 120 to function and feel normal and good.


    I suspect when you get on subs, you will have a flare of back pain, but it will be more your body adjusting to having less opioids in your system than it is used to. If your back pain flares up - perhaps maybe try to throw everything you can at at it - NSAIDS, lidocaine patch, icy hot, hot bath, etc to get over that period. Maybe after 1-2 weeks of being stable on subs, you will have a true sense of how your back pain is. I think if you haven't felt any pain at all in your back - despite continually being on opioids for the past months to years, if you don't have back pain during the valleys when your blood levels of opioids are low like the days before your refill - that is a very good sign that your back pain might be in a good and manageable place and tolerable opioid free.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Wow- our situations are indeed very similar. I never had the moment of knowing that would be my last opioid dose (aside from the one fentanyl patch which isn't really the same). This most recent time I blew through my supply of Oxy fully expecting that I had more in my safe. Well when I opened it and saw one lonely fentanyl patch I knew the jig was up. I blew through my supply and there was no way I was gonna make it 3 weeks. So in a sense I kind of had no choice. Not sure where along the way I simply became unable to make due with 6 pills a day, how that had to turn into 12 or 20. But I realize it's unacceptable now, and I need to do something about it.

    I suspect you're right about the flare up of pain. I'm going to have to rely on NSAIDs and some PT grade ice packs I have in the freezer.

    You're right - I couldn't get more at this point if I wanted it. I suppose that's a good thing. 3:30pm and still feeling normal. I suspect right around the time I want to go to sleep tonight is when my body will decide to betray me :-)

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    That's exactly why tapering full opioids is so hard. Let's say you take 20 a day normally. Well, when it is time to take #8 of the day.... why can't you resist? You aren't sick right, because you just had #7 an hour ago, and you had 6 already before that. Yet, all you can think about is taking #8, and #9, and #10 of the day. You want it that bad, but you're not even sick, right? So, if it's that hard to avoid taking #8 when you are already feeling fine and good, imagine how hard it will be to taper down when you try to take taper and you ARE feeling sick and trying to hold off on that #8 to only get to 10 a day. Impossible.

    The good thing about subs is that it should not make you feel euphoric, and it should take the cravings and physical symptoms away. You train yourself to get used to living your day without opioids.


    My only fear is that you came to this point because you ran out, and had no other choice. So, in a sense, you were forced to this point (as opposed to getting here voluntarily) which is a good thing and a bad thing. It's good because you have no other choice, it's bad because you're only here because you had no other choice. The good outweights the bad though. Most ppl here have dealers that can get them stuff if they crack and fold and relapse. You don't. So, in a sense, being forced here is a good thing.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Definitely starting to feel >>>>>>. Very restless and figitedy. The worst part is feeling like pressure on my chest making it hard to inhale. Is that a normal one? Don't recall reading about that. I have a feeling it's going to be a very, VERY long night.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    No one can say that the chest pain is normal. But, do you really think you are having a heart attack? Sounds like WD's are starting to creep in.

    Remember, you only have to do this once. It's not like you have to be in WD for 5 whole days and you are just on day 1. The first 24-36 hours will suck. Just remember the worse it gets, the closer you get to getting some instant relief.

    No matter how bad you feel, remember you are in control. You can make all the bad feeling go away with the subs. You just have to hold out for as long as you can before you start the subs. Being in the worst shape possible before you start subs will guarantee that you know just exactly how much sub you need to stabilize you. If you take subs too early, you might undershoot the dose you need to stabilize. For example, if you take too early you might feel only 2mg is enough, but that is not true because that 2mg stabilized you when you still had some opioid left in your system. The worst case scenario is precipitated WD from taking too much sub too soon, however.

    When you get to 26 on the COWS sheet, take a bit and wait a couple hours for it to take effect. You can start off at 1-2mg at once, and then wait 60-90 minutes, and add a 0.5 sliver more every hour, giving each extra dose time to kick in. This ensures your lowest dose needed to feel good. If you take too much too soon, you might over estimate and start off on say 8mg/day instead of 4mg/day. That's not good for multiple reasons - too high dose lengthens the taper duration AND if the dose is too high you will be going in reverse - INCREASING your tolerance instead of decreasing your tolerance.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 06:44 PM.

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Definitely not chest PAIN.... just harder to inhale ...

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    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    And thank you for all your support. Really needed it today.

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    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Don't take the clonidine. You want your symptoms full blown because that is what you use to judge your dosing.

    If anything, you can save the clonidine for use when you finally jump off the subs at the end.

  24. #24
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Subs work. Trust the subs. There is no such thing as subs not working. That is like someone saying they can take opioids lots of opioids and feel nothing.

    Have confidence in the subs. I was scared like you were, wondering if the subs really would work. They will work.

    And keep remembering... This is NOT the flu where you will feel like >>>> as you slowly feel worse and worse each day, and then very slowly feel better and better each day over a very very rough week.

    This is just 24-36 hours of feeling bad, and then with the snap of your fingers you have a cure for the badness that will fix it instantly within just a couple hours.

    At the end of the day... you are still in full control here OK. The WD symptoms are a total slave to you, you have power over them, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 06:52 PM.

  25. #25
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Your habit went out of control because tolerance is slow and insidious. When I first started on this mess, I could do half of a 5mg tab and feel euphoric for the whole night - 6-8 hours. At its worst, I could take 200mg and barely feel anything. Horrible feeling.

    Your tolerance went up. 6 used to be OK, but then you got tolerance. The high would only last 30-60minutes before you feel it slipping away, whereas it used to last you all day. Once you feel the high slipping away after 1 hour, you have to use again to maintain the high, and then again an hour later once you feel that high slipping away again. Then, the high only lasts 30minutes, and you gotta use every 30 minutes to keep high. Or, in the AM after sleeping, it takes you 3 pills in a row to get up to that high to start with, and then it takes 6 to get ramped up to those levels, and 1 every hour after that to stay high and etc etc etc. Everybody on this board struggling knows exactly what I'm talking about because we've all been there.

    That is why you crave 20 a day and need #8 out of 20 of the day so bad even when you don't feel sick yet. You are feeling the high slipping away and want to stay there.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 07:02 PM.

  26. #26
    Iluv2smile is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi there..
    yes that is probably anxiety related.

    Do this right and you only
    have to do it
    Once!

    Idk about taking anything to make you feel better during this process because it could prevent you from getting to the COWS 26 faster..

    Of course it is up to you but I put myself into precipitated wds. 2+ times.

    That is the absolute worst .

    Because you are in full blown wds in about 5 seconds!
    It truly sux!

    Not a thing that can you do
    But wait!

    You will be ok..
    before you know it
    This will be a distant memory..

    Probably like I did
    I wondered why I didn't do it sooner?

    Keep posting..
    we will be checking on you!

    Bette


    You got that right abusing pills
    Never Ever
    Gets better !
    It is just a matter of time
    And we can loose it all!

    But thank God you are here!
    That does not have to happen to you
    Or me!
    That is amazing !
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 07:08 PM.

  27. #27
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    I want to add that you may feel you know what "normal" feels like because you can take a bunch of pills and not feel high. That's not true at all. The fact that you take 20/day means you definitely are feeling something and want to continue to feel that way. If you truly weren't getting high off the pills, you could taper down to 5/day no sweat - just enough to ward off the WD symptoms, but you obviously could not, right?

    Even if you didn't feel floridly blatantly high like you did when you first started taking opiates, do not underestimate how much boost they were giving you even in the bitter end when you would woof down 20 and think you weren't feeling anything. They definitely add a buzz, make you feel content, happy to just sit there staring at the ceiling for an hour doing nothing because you still like the way you feel at all times.

    I can't stress enough the adjustment period to life without opiates and feeling normal. Mentally prepare yourself for that. I know you must be feeling uncomfortable right now and that's all you can focus on, but once you stabilize continue to mentally prepare yourself for life without opiates.

    If you were to have a long boring 1hr meeting at work.. would you use right before the meeting? If so, meetings at work might not be as easy to get through as before, and much more brutal perhaps. I used to actually thoroughly enjoy going to work because I would use and talk/chat to my coworkers nonstop all day and be very good mood all day at work. I have heard ppl say they used to be avid golf and poker players but don't enjoy them as much as they used to after they stopped using and they find that it's not that they enjoyed golf and poker period... it's that they enjoyed being playing poker and golf WHILE HIGH. I don't mean to scare you, or make it seem like life without opiates is unbearable. Living clean and not worrying about the next day's supply beats the opiate high without question.

    Just be prepared for the adjustment. You have been using for a long time - what 7 years? Trust me when I say even if the pills weren't making you super high anymore, you probably have forgotten what "normal" feels like and it will be an adjustment. Like starting any new habit, it takes a couple days to get used to, but after 1 week, 2 weeks, a month, feeling normal will feel normal again.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 08:34 PM.
    Iluv2smile likes this.

  28. #28
    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Dsh- you're right. I probably have no idea what normal is.

    Things have progressed quite rapidly here. Severe GI symptoms, irritability off the charts. Just barked at the spouse for trying to lay in bed and comfort me. Restless beyond all get out. I'm at around a 21... pulse and blood pressure off the chart (Clonidine might help if I weren't trying to document all the scores)

    Not sure how much longer I can hold out. I'm really trying but I fear it won't be long. Just hope it's not too soon.

    Ps. I picked up a wrist cuff blood pressure / pulse reader at CVS for like $20. Helps a lot.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 09:45 PM.

  29. #29
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
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    Give yourself an honest assessment on the COWS scale. You can score easy points for the stuff like "subjective anxiety", or "mild myalgias" but to score 5 points on some of the categories you need to be in an all out sweat or tremoring very visually from across the room.


    It's been, what? 16 hours? Normal withdrawals last 3-7 days, and with subs you are being asked to go only 24-36 hours. It's the deal of the century if you think about it.

    OK, so I just looked up the conversion of fentnayl to oxycodone. If your patch gave you 25 micrograms/hr, that is the equivalent of 5mg oxycodone/hr. So really, when you stopped the massive amounts of oxycodone pills and switched to the patch, you were only getting a trickle - like 5mg/hr of oxycodone in your system. So, you've gone the past 12-16 hours or so with absolutely nothing, and the 12 hours before that getting 5mg oxycodone an hour for 12 hours, and prior to that you were using tons of oxycodone.

    So really, I guess it would make sense that you are scoring in the 20 range only 12 hours after taking the patch off because that 12 hours of being on the patch wasn't giving you much.

    Hang in there, and wait for the 26 if you can.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 03-24-2017 at 11:45 PM.

  30. #30
    Fiks2017 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Give yourself an honest assessment on the COWS scale. You can score easy points for the stuff like "subjective anxiety", or "mild myalgias" but to score 5 points on some of the categories you need to be in an all out sweat or tremoring very visually from across the room.


    It's been, what? 16 hours? Normal withdrawals last 3-7 days, and with subs you are being asked to go only 24-36 hours. It's the deal of the century if you think about it.

    OK, so I just looked up the conversion of fentnayl to oxycodone. If your patch gave you 25 micrograms/hr, that is the equivalent of 5mg oxycodone/hr. So really, when you stopped the massive amounts of oxycodone pills and switched to the patch, you were only getting a trickle - like 5mg/hr of oxycodone in your system. So, you've gone the past 12-16 hours or so with absolutely nothing, and the 12 hours before that getting 5mg oxycodone an hour for 12 hours, and prior to that you were using tons of oxycodone.

    So really, I guess it would make sense that you are scoring in the 20 range only 12 hours after taking the patch off because that 12 hours of being on the patch wasn't giving you much.

    Hang in there, and wait for the 26 if you can.
    Yes you're right about the fentanyl patch. I wasn't feeling GREAT with the patch on, I think it was just barely enough to keep the withdrawals off.

    Last night I was able to hold out a bit longer. I think another hour or two after my post. It got pretty bad and I finally gave up and opened the suboxone package. I started out with just 1mg. Waited about 1 hour and was still feeling iffy so I took another 1mg. Let me tell you, after that second milligram - I was literally feeling like all the symptoms went away. Just like that. I was very happy to see everything about them working so well come true. Lol. And I'm happy 2mg seems like a very reasonable induction dose. I will admit though I am having a hard time cutting the trips equally with these big scissors I need a pair of small ones.

    So now I will take 1mg in the morning and 1mg in the PM for the next 4-5 days right? This is all such a relief, i was able to go to sleep last night and woke up now at 9am. Like wow.
    Catrina likes this.

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