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Wanting to start Subs detox.
  1. #1
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Default Wanting to start Subs detox.

    Alrighty....let me make a very long story as short as I can. I'm a firefighter/paramedic that injured myself in two separate incidents 10 months apart contributing to the same injury that I have been off for, for the almost 3 years. I originally fell and fractured my lower back which wasn't found until the second injury when I was lifting a heavy patient and the fracture spread apart by a few millimeters. The pain I was having though was due to a disc that herniated and was pressing the S1 nerve root between itself and a bone spur. Workers comp gave me their normal runaround until I finally decided that it was time to get it fixed with my group health and continue fighting them in the meantime. All this led to a physical dependence on opiates. I have never enjoyed taking and being tethered to these drugs...but they were a necessity because without them, I could hardly walk. Through some sort of miracle...the surgery that I just had last week was a total success even though the surgeon wasn't optimistic due to the length of time that the nerve had been impinged. Over the past 3 years I have taken pretty much everything (nucynta, vicodin, percocet, dilaudid, tramadol, generic morphine, avinza and I'm sure a few others). I would take them until they stopped working effectively and then ask to be changed. I learned pretty quickly that I was physically addicted when I decided to not take my nucynta because I felt pretty good pain wise one day. I was drenched in sweat, freezing, shaking, nauseous. My wife was trying to talk me into going to see a doctor when it dawned on me what it might be...took a pill and within 30 minutes I felt normal. Lol...that was a wake up call. Anyway....fast forward almost 3 years and I had my surgery last week and miraculously my back pain and leg pain is about 95% gone and I am ready to start physical therapy and get back to work. I came into 4 8mg/2mg Suboxone strips. My buddy has told me that if taken short term...it is a miracle drug...and if taken long term...it is a nasty demon from hell. I have read hours of posts about it and how you should take it. I've read Robert_325's posts. I've read everything from people taking it for only 4 days for up to 6 weeks....and obviously I've read the horror stories of people being on maintenance doses for years. So here is the gist of the question. At this point...I am still taking my generic morphine 30mg twice a day. I have quit taking all breakthrough meds but can't cut the ER morphine into smaller units. I want to start the Suboxone tomorrow but am willing to wait another day or two to get this nailed down. I have enough to last through next weekend. I have 4 of the 8mg strips and am pretty sure that is plenty to get thru this. As far as addictions go...mine probably sounds pretty minor...but addiction is relative and to me...it's the worst I've ever experienced. I don't know if Robert_325 is still around or if anyone has been thru this that was taking approx. the same amount of opiate when they kicked. Almost all of the posts I've read on here...the person kicked from a much higher amount. What would be a good starting point?. My tentative plan is to start at 2mg. I know Robert says that is too high...but IMO(and I've never done it)... .25mg just seems way too low. My buddy that has done it recently went from 2mg twice a day for a few days...down to 2mg once a day...to 1mg twice a day...to 1mg a day down to .5 twice a day to .5 once a day to .5 once every other day. The whole process took place over two weeks. He said once he quit completely...he had some yawning, lethargy, and runny eyes and nose for a couple of days and that was it. That sounds like heaven to me compared to what I have been through before when I have ran out of my opiate earlier than I should have. Does this sound realistic? Is anyone going through it now or that has been through it recently that was taking around the same amount of morphine when they quit and took suboxone to kick it with? I'm just curious. I'm open to any suggestions and helpful past experiences. Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance and I wish you all success with whatever struggles you're going thru.

    Heavy

  2. #2
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyFD View Post
    Alrighty....let me make a very long story as short as I can. I'm a firefighter/paramedic that injured myself in two separate incidents 10 months apart contributing to the same injury that I have been off for, for the almost 3 years. I originally fell and fractured my lower back which wasn't found until the second injury when I was lifting a heavy patient and the fracture spread apart by a few millimeters. The pain I was having though was due to a disc that herniated and was pressing the S1 nerve root between itself and a bone spur. Workers comp gave me their normal runaround until I finally decided that it was time to get it fixed with my group health and continue fighting them in the meantime. All this led to a physical dependence on opiates. I have never enjoyed taking and being tethered to these drugs...but they were a necessity because without them, I could hardly walk. Through some sort of miracle...the surgery that I just had last week was a total success even though the surgeon wasn't optimistic due to the length of time that the nerve had been impinged. Over the past 3 years I have taken pretty much everything (nucynta, vicodin, percocet, dilaudid, tramadol, generic morphine, avinza and I'm sure a few others). I would take them until they stopped working effectively and then ask to be changed. I learned pretty quickly that I was physically addicted when I decided to not take my nucynta because I felt pretty good pain wise one day. I was drenched in sweat, freezing, shaking, nauseous. My wife was trying to talk me into going to see a doctor when it dawned on me what it might be...took a pill and within 30 minutes I felt normal. Lol...that was a wake up call. Anyway....fast forward almost 3 years and I had my surgery last week and miraculously my back pain and leg pain is about 95% gone and I am ready to start physical therapy and get back to work. I came into 4 8mg/2mg Suboxone strips. My buddy has told me that if taken short term...it is a miracle drug...and if taken long term...it is a nasty demon from hell. I have read hours of posts about it and how you should take it. I've read Robert_325's posts. I've read everything from people taking it for only 4 days for up to 6 weeks....and obviously I've read the horror stories of people being on maintenance doses for years. So here is the gist of the question. At this point...I am still taking my generic morphine 30mg twice a day. I have quit taking all breakthrough meds but can't cut the ER morphine into smaller units. I want to start the Suboxone tomorrow but am willing to wait another day or two to get this nailed down. I have enough to last through next weekend. I have 4 of the 8mg strips and am pretty sure that is plenty to get thru this. As far as addictions go...mine probably sounds pretty minor...but addiction is relative and to me...it's the worst I've ever experienced. I don't know if Robert_325 is still around or if anyone has been thru this that was taking approx. the same amount of opiate when they kicked. Almost all of the posts I've read on here...the person kicked from a much higher amount. What would be a good starting point?. My tentative plan is to start at 2mg. I know Robert says that is too high...but IMO(and I've never done it)... .25mg just seems way too low. My buddy that has done it recently went from 2mg twice a day for a few days...down to 2mg once a day...to 1mg twice a day...to 1mg a day down to .5 twice a day to .5 once a day to .5 once every other day. The whole process took place over two weeks. He said once he quit completely...he had some yawning, lethargy, and runny eyes and nose for a couple of days and that was it. That sounds like heaven to me compared to what I have been through before when I have ran out of my opiate earlier than I should have. Does this sound realistic? Is anyone going through it now or that has been through it recently that was taking around the same amount of morphine when they quit and took suboxone to kick it with? I'm just curious. I'm open to any suggestions and helpful past experiences. Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance and I wish you all success with whatever struggles you're going thru.

    Heavy
    Hi there. Welcome! I know what you're going through as far as the awful opiate addiction. I could be mistaken, but I don't think you have enough sub to do a proper taper..at least not the one most people follow here which is a 25% reduction every 4 or more days until u reach .25 mg. Someone with more experience with this will be along shortly to help you. Best of luck! My first sub dose reduction is tomorrow. I'm very excited to be on a journey towards sobriety! Take care. Will check your thread to see how you're doing.
    -Katherine
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  3. #3
    systolic_suckerpunch is offline Senior Member
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    Heavy, if you are still taking your pain pills daily, you do not want to start suboxone yet. You should go at least 24 hours after having any kind of pain meds, and be in pretty bad withdrawals before you start. Otherwise, if you start taking the suboxone too soon after your last pills, you run the risk of what's called 'precipitated withdrawal'. You will want to do a google search for 'COWS worksheet', and print out a copy once you find one so you can assess yourself after you've had your last pain pill. You will want to have a score of at least 26, and have gone 24 hours without pills. Once those 2 things have happened, you can start with the suboxone.

    You mentioned you've read the taper plan written by Robert, who unfortunately no longer posts here. Here is the link to the taper plan:

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/featured...apy-50887.html

    It may be helpful to read it again or even print it out, as it can answer many of your questions. It addresses the induction phase, where you start with a small amount and wait 90 minutes, assess any withdrawal symptoms you may be still having, and if needed take a smaller amount, and repeat the process every 90 minutes until you feel like you've stabilized. You may find that you will be able to get stable at less than 2 mg, and since you only have 4 strips, that couldn't hurt.

    I am one of those poor souls who was stuck at a large maintenance dose for years. I am at the start of my taper, about a week in and at 8mg a day. Therefore I can't answer your specific questions about what others have experienced in circumstances similar to yours, but there are people here who have been where you are, and have successfully used suboxone to end their years of heavy duty pain pill usage. I'm sure you will hear from some of them soon.

    In the meantime, please consider doing your induction using the guide provided in the link. If you google 'the Thomas recipe for opiate withdrawal', you will find a host of ideas and tools to treat your withdrawal symptoms which will allow you to take the least amount of suboxone to met your needs. However, in order to bring your COWS score to 26 as soon as possible, you might not want to use anything mentioned in the thomas recipe while you are waiting to go into withdrawals after your last pain pill.
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  4. #4
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    hey, Heavy, you've been on a nasty ride with the opiates. Congratulations on getting down to only two 30mg. morphine tablets. However, I do have some concerns with the amount of sub that you have: 4 8mg. strips give you only 32mg. of sub. Subs are very potent medicine. Despite what you have been told subs are NOT a miracle cure. I don't believe that that amount is going to quite get you through the taper. You want to taper no more than .25% around every 4 days.

    Make sure you read Roberts sub plan thoroughly. You want to start on the lowest effective does. Therefore, I wouldn't start out at 2mg. Cut your sub, or at least one of them until you have some .50mg. pieces. (you can google cutting sub). It is imperative that you are in moderate to severe w/d before beginning the sub. You can google a COWS worksheet and try to score at least a 26 before you begin your induction. When you begin your taper, start with .50mg and wait around an hour, if you are still having symptoms try another .50 mg., wait awhile and take another .50mg. and so on. You should be able to stablize around 2mg.

    You can also start with 1mg. and wait around 1 to 1/5 hours and then take .50 mg. doses in increments around an hour apart until you feel "normal". Again, I think you should be able to induct at around 2mg., perhaps less.

    Once you feel stable, you can start cutting your dose by .25% every four days. Do not get in a hurry with this. Robert felt that most people are successful in weaning off subs without becoming addicted, as long as they tapered within 6-8 weeks. That is an estimate. The taper is not set in stone, you need to listen to your body and taper accordingly. It helps to post here and people will help you as you go. One thing you might want to do is to post in this in the "suboxone therapy" section of the boards. There are many who can help you there, particularly Alexnt.

    I wish you all the success in the world!

    Peace,

    Iloerose
    Last edited by Anonymous; 09-30-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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  5. #5
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Sorry about recommending the sub board, Heavy, you are already here! LOL. Been a long night.

    rose
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  6. #6
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the replies. Yeah I have read the Thomas recipe and unfortunately I know myself and am not that organized...lol. I had also read that about getting into pretty heavy withdrawal before starting the subs. I just didn't want to believe that it was very important. I haven't heard of "precipitated withdrawal" before though and will be googling that as soon as I get done with this. The reason I only got 4 of the strips was because my friend had done it with 3 and I figured I would get an extra just to be safe. I can always get more if needed but I was hoping not to need it. I didn't want to wait to be into heavy withdrawal to start because I have a young son and it is so hard to take care of him while feeling so >>>>>> as I'm sure some of you know. But if I have to...I have to. Whatever is gonna work the best. I guess I will start with the .25 and titrate up...it just really seemed like too small of a dose since my friend had said he started at 2 and it wasn't enough. I know everyone is different but a difference of 800% seemed like way too much of a difference....idk. Looks like I should probably put it off a couple more days...one day for more input...which is coming I a lot faster than I expected (I appreciate that) and a second day of not taking anything to get my system ready for the suboxone. Alright....time to look up precipitated withdrawal...I'm just glad I started looking into the specifics a week out from running out of my meds...thanks again

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    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by iloerose View Post
    Sorry about recommending the sub board, Heavy, you are already here! LOL. Been a long night.

    rose
    Lol....no worries Rose....I thought I was but you had me double checking

  8. #8
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Ahhhhh....ok....precipitated withdrawal...I've done it to many patients in a >>>>>> overdose when I give them narcan...didn't realize that's what it was called. I'll tell you one thing this whole process has taught me...I'll be a lot gentler when pushing narcan...lol...I have a lot more sympathy now for withdrawal symptoms

  9. #9
    systolic_suckerpunch is offline Senior Member
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    I just wanted to add, when you do actually start taking the subs, make sure you place it under your tongue either off to the left or right side. Allow it time to dissolve completely, at least 5 to 7 minutes. During that time, do not swallow, spit, talk, eat, drink, or smoke. Suboxone absorbs in the capillaries under the tongue, so you must allow that to happen in order to get the full benefit of what you are taking. Once the time is up, swallow all the saliva that will have accumulated in your mouth.

    Also, I know that the doses being suggested probably seems like an insanely small amount to start with, but suboxone is a really strong medication. It is prescribed in Europe for pain at doses of less than one milligram.
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  10. #10
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Oh....I just had a thought...I have had a lot of luck with gabapentin stopping withdrawal symptoms. If I was to take that all day tomorrow....since it's not an opiate...it should help me not feel like >>>> all day. That wouldn't have any effect on taking the subs the next day right? What are y'all's thoughts on that?

  11. #11
    systolic_suckerpunch is offline Senior Member
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    The thing with that, is that it will probably prolong your wait to get to 26 on the cows sheet. I have no experience with it, but IMHO, the faster you can get to 26 and get started, the better off you'll be. Maybe save the gaba for when you are tapering and starting to feel icky because of that.
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  12. #12
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Well...decided to take the gabapentin last night and this morning. When it wears off...it does so pretty quickly compared to the ER morphine....didn't wanna gradually slip into withdrawal...lol....no way would I make it...starting to feel it now...should be what was it...a 26 on the COWS sometime tonight and will be able to start....ahhhhhhh this is fun.....got a thermal on under a shirt with a sweatshirt on over that in a house that my wife thinks is too hot...haha...love feeling this way...not

  13. #13
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    The 26 is non-negotiable. You need to be in w/d before you take the sub. I've seen too many people here slip into precipitated w/d and you are on a heavy opiate. PW is NOT fun. Do NOT start at .25mg. start at at least .50mg. or even 1mg. Follow what I told you to do. I know you are afraid of the w/d. Everyone is. DO NOT take anymore gabapentin.

    This is not meant to be easy. But once you get stable on a dose, you should feel "normal". I will look for you in the morning. I do not have a lot of time. You must be ready to do this and to do it right. Do it right the first time and you will never have to do this again.

    Peace,

    Iloerose
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  14. #14
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Yeah...gonna wait for the 26...or close enough...I know I won't be in any mood to read the form and tally up a score...just by going over it though I'm pretty sure I can estimate it. I feel like >>>> right now but I'm not even at a 10...so I'll wait and starting at .5 sounds better. I re-read Roberts plan and I must have misread it at first. I think I read where he said you can go up increments of .25 every 90 minutes and confused it with the initial dose. I wanna cut it now because I know how shaky I will be later...but don't wanna open the package till I have to. I'll get thru it...no worries. Just wanted some info on doing it right and y'all have provided it for me. I really do appreciate that. The good thing is that I have no mental ties to this drug so I won't have to get over that...just the physical. I had a bad addiction in my early 20s to something much different than opiates so I know how that goes...just glad I never felt that way about these. Starting to sweat pretty good as I write this...it's so weird how it comes in waves...I will feel totally >>>>>> for 10-20 minutes and then my body will seem to just start regulating my temperature and I feel better for a little bit...then it returns....etc...thx iloerose...I'll report back in the morning. I'm central time zone just fyi....I was hoping this would hit me faster and I could do it tonight...but it's not looking like its gonna cooperate...ah well...talk to you tomorrow

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    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Took the subs last night around 9:30...talked myself into it when I was feeling pretty icky...anyway...no PW...ended up needing 2mg to feel normal...but had an awesome night....took .5 at 9:30... .5 at 10 and then 1mg at 10:30 cause I ran out of patience....finally normalized around 11-11:15...didn't need to take it again till about 11:30am...took 1mg...but started feeling worse...so I put in another 1mg at 12:30....it's dissolving right now...we'll see how that works out.

  16. #16
    Hopethisworks is offline Member
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    Hi heavy just saying hello and welcoming you to the forum. Rose and Alex have been amazing in my help to begin subs(twice now) and get stable. I'm now stable and just recently made a reduction. I totally understand your story. I too ended up in this position after an injury. Never knew this would happen. I always say if only I had known. I had a lot if difficulty making it to 26. I was lucky enough both times I inducted to take my last dose before bed and then start after 12-14 hrs and I haven't experienced any pwd. I'm thankful for that because God knows making it to 26 would be super hard especially with 3 children constantly needing a functioning mother. Pls keep posting and let us know how everything is going for you and where you were able to induct at.
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  17. #17
    systolic_suckerpunch is offline Senior Member
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    Hi heavy,

    It sounds like you got stable on your first day at 4mg total.

    (You said you took 2, then 0.5, then 0.5 again, then 1 mg)

    So if you stabilized at 4, that is the dose you're gonna want to take for the next 3-4 days.

    You should be taking the same dose at the same time of day, to allow a steady build up in your system.

    Most people would suggest 2mg in the morning and 2 in the afternoon/evening. But you can also take all 4 all at once if you prefer.

    You really don't wanna get in the habit of taking it sporadically thru the day. You will thank yourself later or getting on a stable schedule asap.


    It sounds like you've already had 2mg today. So wait until this evening and take the other 2. Don't forget to allow it plenty of time to dissolve. 8mg takes 15 min minimum, so if I were you I'd try to give it as long as possible to dissolve, like ten minutes if you can.

    Hang in there and this will all be a distant memory soon.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 10-02-2013 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Typo fix
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  18. #18
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Heavy: I'm totally with SS. Get your dose stable now at 4mg. per day and no more. This is the time that you will start to stabilize on a dose. As was mentioned you can take the 4mg. at one time or split the dose. Most people that take one dose, take that dose mid-morning. Or you can take 2mg. mid-morning and then around 8 hours later take the other 2mg. The imperative now is that you get stable at specific times, no more than twice per day. The sub WILL hold you once it is consistently in your system.

    Do not take sub willy-nilly. You will have more difficulty tapering unless you get stable and are taking the sub at specific times. Stay with us and we will help you. Hang Tough,

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  19. #19
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the replies and the input. Sorry I didn't write yesterday. The 2nd was our anniversary so we went out to dinner and then decided to stop at the bar my wife works at (but has taken off since my surgery) to see some friends. I used to drink a lot at the bar....was never someone that drank at home...but would go out 3-4 times a week. Anyway...that all stopped when my wife got pregnant a couple years ago. I've drank twice since...once after one of my best friends passed away and then once when my beloved 49ers got spanked in the Super Bowl....lol. Anyway...that was just a quick back story because of my next question. First of all...I know that drinking on any opiates is a no no...but most of us didn't make it here following rules very strictly...lol. I had probably 7-8 drinks...and 2 shots. I didn't even have the slightest buzz. We'll wait...what was weird was that I started to get a buzz after a few drinks...but then it disappeared immediately and I didn't feel a buzz the whole rest of the night. I gave you the back story to show you that I'm not an ignorant drinker. I spent the better part of 20 years at the bar. I'm a paramedic...by no means do I think I know everything about the human body....but I get by. Do the subs have some sort of effect on alcohol...or affect the way you feel while drinking? Not looking for any really scientific explanations...just wondering if anyone else had ever drank on them and had a similar experience. The second part was that yesterday I felt horrrrrriblee...like the worst hangover ever....and didn't even have a buzz the night before. Idk...I definitely won't do it again...the whole experience just made me wonder if they had anything to do with that. As far as the suboxone goes...I think maybe as more of the ER morphine wore off in the beginning...I needed to take more of the subs. I have seemed to stabilize though on 1.33 mg in the morning and the same at night. I cut the 8mg strip in half....and then cut each half into 3 pieces. 1 piece every 12 hours seems to do the trick right now. Did that yesterday and today. The last time I wrote was the 2nd and I was still going "willy-nilly" as you put it iloerose...it just seemed really inconsistent. But now it's seemed to level out and become predictable. One last thing that I've also noticed. I will feel my temperature start to become unstable and my stomach will get knotty....if that makes sense. So I will take the dose...I usually let it sit for about 10 minutes...then it takes about 20 more minutes and I will feel my temperature start to regulate...and then I will get very sleepy, like I can't keep my eyes open...but that only lasts for about 10 minutes...and then I snap out of it and feel great (well....normal)...lol....for about 12-14 hours. Does that happen to any of y'all? Alright....well that's about all I have to report right now. Thanks again for all the input and assistance. Nice to meet you Hopethishelps....and I'm sorry for whatever injury you had to lead you here. I know that story all too well. I wish you the best with your treatment as well. Iloerose and systolic_suckerpunch have been invaluable so far for me as well. I thought I had a pretty solid plan going into this but it turns out I had most of it wrong...lol. I am so glad I came to this forum to post my questions about it. Talk to y'all soon. Gonna eat some breakfast and then I'll look up your posts Hopethishelps. Curious to read about how you've done it with the 3 children. One is hard enough...and I have a lot of help. You must be some sort of superhuman...lol...jk...but not really. Good luck to you

  20. #20
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Tried to find an edit button but couldn't find one...Hopethisworks*....not Hopethishelps...sorry

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    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Hi Heavy...just thought I'd pop over to check on ya. I wish you the best of luck with your taper! Hope you're well.
    -Katherine

  22. #22
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    It sounds like you are taking 2.66mg. per day? As was posted above that may not be enough to stabilize you. that extra .34mg which would take you to 3mg. per day is a pretty large dose as far as subs are concerned and perhaps you want to go to 3mg. in two doses of 1.5mg., on am the other pm. You should not drop your dose until you are stable or you will have trouble all the down. GET STABLE first, so you are not grabbing a sliver hear and there.
    Wish you luck

    Peace,

    Iloeorse
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  23. #23
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    3 may be the ticket...I was good that one day on 2.66...but also I guess the day before I probably took closer to 4 and had some leftovers floating around in there. My symptoms were run of the mill...hot flash...covered head to toe in sweat...feeling like I'm getting stabbed in the gut....good times. Probably just gonna have to find some more subs which isn't a problem...maybe a few more strips
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  24. #24
    Sharks fan is offline Advanced Member
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    Heavy,

    You will have w/d symptoms until you stabilize, which can take a couple of days. Once you get stable you need to do seat the same time everyday. It's all about consistency, don't wait too long between doses or you won't be stable. It's really important that you don't wait until you feel w/d symptoms, you have to take them regularly.
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  25. #25
    alexnt is offline Platinum Member
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    Heavy the most important thing you need to do as Rose and Sharks have pointed out is to get a dose like 3 mg and stay there and get good and stable on it befor you can start the taper plan. You cant take a certain amount one day and a different amount the next day or the plan wont work. I was on subs for 4 months and I was inducted at a clinic at a very unneeded high dose of subs and didn't find this site until I had been on subs for a few weeks. I used Roberts taper plan and it worked great for me. I myself just dosed once a day at around noon my entire time on subs but several do the twice a day dose. From what I have read on your thread my guess is 3 mg would do you ok it looks like. Just get stable and follow the taper plan and you will only have to do this once. My best wishes to you.

    Alex
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  26. #26
    systolic_suckerpunch is offline Senior Member
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    I wanted to talk about the alcohol for a minute. I'm not much of a drinker, but from time to time I will have one or 2 of these strawberry-lime flavored malt drinks, i call them pink beer. I don't even know why I do it, because they never have an effect. Reading what you wrote kind of reminded me of that.

    I think you're playing a dangerous game with drinking that many drinks while you're taking suboxone. It sounds to me like you kept drinking because you wanted to feel different, even tho it didnt happen after 3 or 4. That sounds like addictive thinking. Which I am struggling every day with. It wasn't until people here told me that when I was wanting an extra half a sub because I was upset or sick to my stomach that it was addictive thinking that my eyes were opened to the truth of it.

    Maybe it's a society thing, to want what we want when we want it, especially to help bad feelings go away. But this is the time to learn about yourself in this regard and to consciously change those thought patterns.

    My point is, that altho I've personally never heard of people having problems from an occasional drink while on subs, I have seen many many people rely on the alcohol to help get them thru while getting off of opiates, and they just ended up with an addiction to alcohol on top of everything else. I would hate to see that happen to you.

    I get the impression that you don't consider yourself an addict, and that's fine, but you may want to give some thought to NA or AA or counseling or something to help you change your thinking while you are detoxing your body. Even if you don't want to start with a meeting, you can get the NA and AA books for free online to download. I have them on my iPhone as PDF files to read whenever I choose. Just reading them to see what it's all about wouldn't hurt anything.

    Just a thought.

    =)
    Last edited by Anonymous; 10-06-2013 at 07:25 PM.
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  27. #27
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    Been a while since I checked in...sorry about that. Anyway...I know it wasn't the right thing to do but I didn't really have a choice...and I wouldn't recommend this to anyone else...but I dropped to 0.5 after a few days at 1mg. About 3 days into taking 0.5 once a day...I guess it caught up to me and I started getting WD symptoms. Took another half mg and felt better, the next few days I stayed at 1mg and then quit taking it. I started to take my gabapentin any loperamide and I am tapering those down every day. This is day 4 off the subs and I actually feel pretty awesome. Today I took 24mg of loperamide and 1800mg of gabapentin. I started at 40mg of lope and 2400mg of gabapentin. Idk...I mean I get the occasional chills and sweaty knuckles...I just say that cause it's weird....it's the only time I've ever felt my knuckles sweat. Occasional stomach cramp....but very minor...and some anxiety...but seriously it's not bad at all. Was out today changing out lights on the truck. Washed my wife's car and my truck. I feel great. I take some Benadryl at night to help sleep. Had some pretty bad restless legs a couple nights ago so I took some vitamin C and it stopped. I know they say take potassium but I have had RLS for years...usually after binge drinking t the bar...lol...and vitamin C has always helped...even before I knew that they had a name for it. I just thought it was the jimmy legs. Dealt with it for over 30 years. It's not a big deal for me...I just get up and go downstairs to the couch and watch some tv till it goes away so I don't keep my wife up. But aaaaaaaaanyway...just wanted to give a status update....and systolic_suckerpunch....I haven't drank since. And really had only drank on special occasions probably 4 times in the previous 2+ years. There was really no way to reply to your post without sounding like I was in denial or something...lol. But if you knew me personally...you'd know it's not a problem for me....but I do appreciate the concern. Idk if this post is gonna get deleted or not since I talked about other drugs and doses...I had one deleted before...but I'm not sure why. Never got a notice of anything. I'm not trying to break any rules...just writing down everything that I am doing to help myself get off these stupid things. As always....thanks for any input in advance...I do really appreciate the things y'all have to say and the advice you give....peace

  28. #28
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Heavy: You're right, I wouldn't recommend what you did to try to break an opiate habit/dependence to anyone. First of all, you never stabilized on the subs or you could have possibly gotten down with relative ease and a chance to come to terms with your dependence had you done this correctly. Secondly, subs are extremely powerful: right around a 72 hour half life and .5mg. is a large amount of sub, jumping from 1mg. is way too much to jump from. Then you jump from the frying pan into the fire to minimize the w/d with the large amounts of gabapentin, which not considered addicting, can be as harmful as a benzo drug and the large dose of loperimide which can cause dehydration. And then how high a dose of vitamin C?, large doses of vitamin C can cause kidney problems. Thirdly, you don't have to justify drinking here: there is no judgement here, except it is a fact that sometimes one habit can change to dependence for another. They gyst of this is that there is NO magic cure for opiate w/d. NONE. You are playing with fire. I do believe you are deflecting the seriousness of your dependence. And I don't mean to be judgemental or antagonistic. No, I wouldn't recommend this way to jump an opiate.
    Dehydration can cause restless leg: opiates dehydrate. Best cure? Drink plenty of fluids: water, pure fruit juices, stay away from energy drinks and soda. Gatorade also helps with RLS and cramping muscles. Eat well: avoid processed food.
    I am sorry to sound harsh, because after all, I'm an addict myself although not active. I also know you're trying to do your best. Please don't let my post interfere with your posting here. I DO wish you the best success in this plan. But then again, I do worry.

    Peace,

    Iloerose
    Last edited by Anonymous; 10-17-2013 at 10:39 PM.

  29. #29
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Heavy: I want to partly apologize for the harshness in the above post in light of what you posted on another thread: I do mean what I said about you doing the best you can with what you have at hand. Please realize I do wish you the best.

    rose
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  30. #30
    HeavyFD is offline New Member
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    No worries Rose....I take criticism pretty well and I know it just comes from concern. That's why I made sure to say I didn't recommend it to anyone. To answer your questions though. The vitamin c I take is the chewable 500mg. Idk why it helps....but it does. I've also chugged a bunch of OJ in the middle of the night in the past to help. It's just something I have figured out that helps me with it over the last 30+ years. I really didn't have a choice either about jumping off at 1mg of subs because that was all I had. I did a lot of reading beforehand about the gaba and the loperamide. Almost 3 years ago when I got injured...my doc started me on 300mg of the gaba and eventually it got up to 1800/day because it just didn't work well for me at lower doses. My dad had it prescribed once and he said he was a zombie after just 300mg and had to quit taking it....so it is different for everyone. Concerning the lope...I have had to take it in the past because workers comp is a nightmare and they would screw up paperwork or whatever every few months...leaving me high and dry and forced to figure out how to get by until they got their stuff together. So over the past 3 years...I have learned what and how much of certain things it takes to work for me....and only me. That's why I can't recommend what I do to other people. Their bodies may be different. I've always needed more than most people of most any type of drug. I have a pretty fast metabolism....idk if that has anything to with it...but I should seriously weigh 400lbs with the stuff that I eat. My wife hates it that I can eat a pint of ice cream every night and chocolate during the day....among other things....and stay the same size...lol. Today I will take 20mg lope and 1500 of the gaba at noon. I'm able to drop the mg's of both every day with no ill effects. Neither of which interact with the opiate receptors in my brain apparently...so those are healing in the meantime.

    I start physical therapy Monday and hopefully can be back to work before Christmas. I thought it was funny that I got a call from the pain mgmt docs office this morning. They had said they couldn't see me anymore because I was getting my surgery through my group health that I have through the fire dept. The work comp adjuster had said even though I won my case and my injury was compensable....that since I decided to have the surgery done through my group health....any and all care relating to the surgery wouldn't be covered until I recovered. At that point I could start seeing the PM doc again. I told her she was stupid and asked why would I have to see him after I was recovered...lol. But the PM doc's office called this morning (one month after surgery) to tell me I needed to come in so that they could properly wean me off the meds. I told her not to worry about it...and that after they left me in the dark to fend for myself...I took care of it.

    As for workers comp....I will NEVER go thru them again. If I get my leg chopped off at work....I will throw it in my backpack....hop home....and then throw my leg on the lawn and lay next to it and say I fell out of the tree. It's been a nightmare the past 3 years. Idk how they get away with their shenanigans. I know this isn't a work comp forum...lol...just got caught up typing. As for the subs...you really did do me a solid informing me on the proper way of taking them and how much. I was gonna start off at a much higher dose than I should have until you steered me in the right direction. I'll keep y'all updated on how it's going.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 10-18-2013 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Typos

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