Results 1 to 12 of 12
Like Tree5Likes
  • 4 Post By dsh12345
  • 1 Post By Catrina
Why doctor's prescribe high doses of 8 to 16mg suboxone..
  1. #1
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    618

    Default Why doctor's prescribe high doses of 8 to 16mg suboxone..

    I've been doing a lot of reading about this, peer reviewed journals and such, about why people are always prescribed massive doses of suboxone. A simple search of "suboxone treatment duration" on Google scholar will show tons of journal articles and meta-analysis(study of multiple studies grouped together) about this question, and the answer from all the journals is that higher doses (like 16mg) provide better results in terms of duration of percentage of ppl still on maintenance therapy, and lower percentage of opioid positive urine screens down the line (indicating relapse). Is there a subconscious bias from suboxone doctors to want to treat ppl as long as possible to get as much money as possible and keep their business healthy? Yes, but they are not doing that because they want you addicted. It's like how Cardiologists would be out of business if everyone's hearts could be made 100% healthy, but your heart doctor isn't trying to keep you sick. That's crazy talk.


    Anyways, the problem I have with these articles is that they view duration on treatment, and maintaining on suboxone and not relapsing into opioids as being interpreted as success. Keeping someone on 16mg of suboxone is easy, but is it ideal? You are just trading one addiction to opioids for an addiction to something that is also basically an opioid. It's like saying I can get any >>>>>> user stabilized and maintained on massive doses of methadone. Yes, that's true, but if he's now stuck on huge doses of methadone, is that a victory? I think the answer is No.


    Look at the posts from people on here. The stories all start the same. In 10 words or less their story starts with and breezes through a several year period in their lives by saying "I've been on suboxone from my doctor 16mg/day for 3 years". That's the easy part, and that's the part the medical establish treats as their "victory", so the speak. And then, in excruciating detail in the next 4-5 paragraphs in HUNDREDS of words they talk about how much difficulty the last couple weeks/months have been trying to wean that down to completely off, and they seek help here with that process because the taper from 16mg for such a long time has been so hard and it's not been working the way the doctor has been helping plan it out, and etc.


    Therein lies the problem. If I had two different 100person groups and one group I just gave 16mg suboxone every day to, and the other group I tried to get completely drug free and clean using the Robert plan with small induction dose and fast ~8 week taper, which group is gonna look better on paper in the end? On paper, it's gonna look like the 16mg suboxone group. But in real life, those ppl are stuck on 16mg suboxone every day, are locked in to using suboxone forever until they start their own battle to get completely off and at that point the years they spent on high dose suboxone will make that battle very difficult to get to drug free. But on paper, the 16mg suboxone has their cravings satisfied, they don't trigger positive opioids in their urine, etc so thus they have no relapses, etc, so on paper I report all 100 still happily on suboxone and no positive >>>>>>/oxycodone in their urine and thus it looks like 16mg is the answer.

    Compare this to the 100ppl I put on the Robert plan. Will their next 8 weeks of their lives be cake like the 16mg suboxone group? No. They will have a battle, but the plan is the easiest way to get completely clean, drug free, off the slavery to any opioids whatsoever. Let's say those 100 ppl complete the Robert taper. Some of those ppl might fail the jump-off and go back to opioids, might successfully jump off, but then relapse, etc, but a significant amount of those ppl will end up being clean, drug free, and moving on with their lives forever without dependence on any drugs. On paper, it might look like a disaster because all 100 aren't happily on 16mg suboxone without relapses like the other group and etc. But, a significant proportion will be drug free and that is what everyone's goal on here seems to be.

    So, in conclusion, maintaining on 16mg of suboxone is not hard. That's evident simply from the fact that ppl's stories breeze through that part of their initial post, but you have to ask yourself whether that's really a victory or not, and whether you want to continue the rest of your life on that much suboxone and making that battle that much harder in the end if you want to be drug free, or if you want to be drug free as fast as possible and as smooth as possible with something like the Robert plan.
    Catrina, UncleLeo, Ming23 and 1 others like this.

  2. #2
    Catrina is offline Diamond Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    I've been doing a lot of reading about this, peer reviewed journals and such, about why people are always prescribed massive doses of suboxone. A simple search of "suboxone treatment duration" on Google scholar will show tons of journal articles and meta-analysis(study of multiple studies grouped together) about this question, and the answer from all the journals is that higher doses (like 16mg) provide better results in terms of duration of percentage of ppl still on maintenance therapy, and lower percentage of opioid positive urine screens down the line (indicating relapse). Is there a subconscious bias from suboxone doctors to want to treat ppl as long as possible to get as much money as possible and keep their business healthy? Yes, but they are not doing that because they want you addicted. It's like how Cardiologists would be out of business if everyone's hearts could be made 100% healthy, but your heart doctor isn't trying to keep you sick. That's crazy talk.


    Anyways, the problem I have with these articles is that they view duration on treatment, and maintaining on suboxone and not relapsing into opioids as being interpreted as success. Keeping someone on 16mg of suboxone is easy, but is it ideal? You are just trading one addiction to opioids for an addiction to something that is also basically an opioid. It's like saying I can get any >>>>>> user stabilized and maintained on massive doses of methadone. Yes, that's true, but if he's now stuck on huge doses of methadone, is that a victory? I think the answer is No.


    Look at the posts from people on here. The stories all start the same. In 10 words or less their story starts with and breezes through a several year period in their lives by saying "I've been on suboxone from my doctor 16mg/day for 3 years". That's the easy part, and that's the part the medical establish treats as their "victory", so the speak. And then, in excruciating detail in the next 4-5 paragraphs in HUNDREDS of words they talk about how much difficulty the last couple weeks/months have been trying to wean that down to completely off, and they seek help here with that process because the taper from 16mg for such a long time has been so hard and it's not been working the way the doctor has been helping plan it out, and etc.


    Therein lies the problem. If I had two different 100person groups and one group I just gave 16mg suboxone every day to, and the other group I tried to get completely drug free and clean using the Robert plan with small induction dose and fast ~8 week taper, which group is gonna look better on paper in the end? On paper, it's gonna look like the 16mg suboxone group. But in real life, those ppl are stuck on 16mg suboxone every day, are locked in to using suboxone forever until they start their own battle to get completely off and at that point the years they spent on high dose suboxone will make that battle very difficult to get to drug free. But on paper, the 16mg suboxone has their cravings satisfied, they don't trigger positive opioids in their urine, etc so thus they have no relapses, etc, so on paper I report all 100 still happily on suboxone and no positive >>>>>>/oxycodone in their urine and thus it looks like 16mg is the answer.

    Compare this to the 100ppl I put on the Robert plan. Will their next 8 weeks of their lives be cake like the 16mg suboxone group? No. They will have a battle, but the plan is the easiest way to get completely clean, drug free, off the slavery to any opioids whatsoever. Let's say those 100 ppl complete the Robert taper. Some of those ppl might fail the jump-off and go back to opioids, might successfully jump off, but then relapse, etc, but a significant amount of those ppl will end up being clean, drug free, and moving on with their lives forever without dependence on any drugs. On paper, it might look like a disaster because all 100 aren't happily on 16mg suboxone without relapses like the other group and etc. But, a significant proportion will be drug free and that is what everyone's goal on here seems to be.

    So, in conclusion, maintaining on 16mg of suboxone is not hard. That's evident simply from the fact that ppl's stories breeze through that part of their initial post, but you have to ask yourself whether that's really a victory or not, and whether you want to continue the rest of your life on that much suboxone and making that battle that much harder in the end if you want to be drug free, or if you want to be drug free as fast as possible and as smooth as possible with something like the Robert plan.
    Exactly. It begins when the person first decides to "get clean". They try cold turkey, they try to taper and no luck. As a last resort they make the appointment with a sub doctor. What does an active addict know about sub (usually)? That they will eliminate withdrawal symptoms and you can leave your drug of choice behind. In that moment, that's mostly what they care about.

    They get into to see their doctor, who is relying upon the studies you mention, and tell their patient that they need 16-24 mg/day and should plan on taking that dose for a minimum of a year. "This will allow you time to break the habit and modify behavior." "No, don't begin to taper or you increase the odds of relapse." The missing piece of the puzzle is EXACTLY what you said. The people who are on these boards struggling with subs don't want maintenance. They want to be clean. Truly clean.

    One other note before I forget--there are a lot (too many) people who have doctors who have told them they will be able to easily jump at 4mg/day. They should try doing that.

    I've read stories here that people have been discharged by their sub doctor because their level of sub isn't high enough. When they explain they are tapering and want off, they have violated their contract and are booted. I get the purpose of the contract. I'm not as jaded as some where doctors are concerned but I have to admit that it sure annoys me that some doctors don't really listen to their patients. There should be a thorough explanation of what this patient is signing up for and patient and doctor should form a plan on an individual basis. I'm pretty sure if an addict knows exactly what they're getting into before they take that first sub dose, the way in which they use them may be different. In fact, most folks don't truly understand how subs work until they've decided they want to quit. Then they find out but it's too late.

    Thank Goodness for this Forum. It has saved thousands of people from long term sub use and have educated even more people than that. This isn't intended to criticize subs! They are effective and useful but they are only a tool and should be viewed as a means to get clean. There's no magic in staying clean. It takes commitment and work.

    Peace,

    Cat
    Ming23 likes this.

  3. #3
    UncleLeo is offline Advanced Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    1,244

    Default

    Keep reading...it gets much worse...tip of the iceberg.

  4. #4
    S0laris30 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1

    Default

    [deleted - breaching forum rules]
    Last edited by Anonymous; 04-15-2017 at 11:31 PM.

  5. #5
    ea23004 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Here in CT, this basically sums up every single Dr. I have seen. I was about to jump off at 1mg and needed about 1-2 more weeks of subs but the doctor literally made me verbally "promise" him to take 24mgs and stay on subx the rest of my life or he would refuse to prescribe. Not to mention did no urine tests, never showed up for appointments, accused me of abusing drugs I never did with 0 proof, and LITERALLY PRESCRIBED TO ME VIA 5MIN VIDEO CHAT where he just asked for my CC # and when I told him that subs are doing nothing he just told me I'm still using, it's been 2 years...Sigh

    I did what he said and just tried to break the 8mgs into 1mg and get off but ended up being more than 1mg in theere and now it's been increasing slowly im stuck at 8mg and that won't even hold me now, I'm getting literally sicker each day (do have a long history of IV use and methadone before) and have no idea what to do because all the Drs here literally know less than I do about suboxone and offer 0 help. I just posted a thread detailing my experience but it didn't show up yet, I have no where else to turn as all the programs here are setup just for money, and can't go out of state as I can't afford (unless I can find a place that is 100% able to help me with this and isn't a scam I can spend the last of my money as this is priceless for me to get physically clean but can't risk another fake rehab)

    If anyones ever experienced suboxone not working at high OR low doses and in between and getting worse rather than better (can't even function or leave my room without violently shaking) please let me know, I feel like the only person this is happening to. I've been past mental addiction for years now and just want to know what it's like to wake up feeling normal and not shaking and in pain. Any input would be appreciated just don't tell me to go to detoxes/rehabs as I already have and a 5day taper will do nothing when my last 2 withdrawals last 60days(subs) and 80 days(methadone).

    Thanks...
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-06-2017 at 04:50 PM.

  6. #6
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ea23004 View Post
    Here in CT, this basically sums up every single Dr. I have seen. I was about to jump off at 1mg and needed about 1-2 more weeks of subs but the doctor literally made me verbally "promise" him to take 24mgs and stay on subx the rest of my life or he would refuse to prescribe. Not to mention did no urine tests, never showed up for appointments, accused me of abusing drugs I never did with 0 proof, and LITERALLY PRESCRIBED TO ME VIA 5MIN VIDEO CHAT where he just asked for my CC # and when I told him that subs are doing nothing he just told me I'm still using, it's been 2 years...Sigh

    I did what he said and just tried to break the 8mgs into 1mg and get off but ended up being more than 1mg in theere and now it's been increasing slowly im stuck at 8mg and that won't even hold me now, I'm getting literally sicker each day (do have a long history of IV use and methadone before) and have no idea what to do because all the Drs here literally know less than I do about suboxone and offer 0 help. I just posted a thread detailing my experience but it didn't show up yet, I have no where else to turn as all the programs here are setup just for money, and can't go out of state as I can't afford (unless I can find a place that is 100% able to help me with this and isn't a scam I can spend the last of my money as this is priceless for me to get physically clean but can't risk another fake rehab)

    If anyones ever experienced suboxone not working at high OR low doses and in between and getting worse rather than better (can't even function or leave my room without violently shaking) please let me know, I feel like the only person this is happening to. I've been past mental addiction for years now and just want to know what it's like to wake up feeling normal and not shaking and in pain. Any input would be appreciated just don't tell me to go to detoxes/rehabs as I already have and a 5day taper will do nothing when my last 2 withdrawals last 60days(subs) and 80 days(methadone).

    Thanks...
    Sorry it's been rough. Whoel body shaking on 8mg daily suboxone... dunno what to make of that. Every piece of actual hard science that I accept to be true should indicate that this can't be the subs if you have been able to stay at 8mg with minimal problems for awhile until now..... multiple reasons. It doesn't make sense that you go into WD on the same dose that's been working, or higher doses than ones that have been working for long times, and also 8mg is way above the ceiling effect with subs, which is like 4-6mg range. And that's just the initial dose. Your blood levels at 4mg/day are really like 12mg from the previous built up daily doses.... so while you are taking 8mg a day, there is really like 24mg a day of sub in your system from the previous days' doses.... that's the equivalent of 400mg of oxycodone...

    Have you considered the Robert plan? There's a sticky at the top of the suboxone thread. For longer users... perhaps 4 days each stop is too quick.. maybe spent 1-2 weeks there. Bottom line is...the only way to get off is to stop... whether that be a slower taper or CT (sounds like CT is a no). If your sub doctor doesn't test you, and doesn't watch you dose.... then why not do your own taper to off?

    Finally... could there be too much sub.. and you are really just feeling too wired, but the conditioning of your brain tells you to take more opioids becauase that's been the answer for years? Yes, too much sub and too little sub can both cause insomnia for example. We just don't notice the insomnia when we wre using full opiates because we wree too busy enjoying our high. I used to stay up all night until 7am high on opiates.... sleeping just because the sun was coming up, but not feeling sleepy at all... felt really energized and euphoric and high.... that was INSOMNIA I just didn't notice because I was high. So, when I was first on subs I had too much the first week and got insomnia and just couldn't tie in the fact that too much sub could also cause insomnia just like too little sub until I thought really hard about my experiences back using my DOC full opiates.

    You have to really be honest with yourself and these symptoms..... again, if you have been stable at doses for a long time above the ceiling effect, you shouldn't just be getting too much full body shakes like this. Perhaps go back down on your dose and try to taper lower if you felt better at lower doses? Less seems to be always more with subs.

  7. #7
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Could the shaking be benzo withdrawal? If you have been taking high dose benzos for a long time.... there could be the possibility with like Xanax or Ativan you wake up withg some mild withdrawals. An 8mg daily sub dose provides very stable high blood levels of opiate above the ceiling effect, that should not be the problem in the morning.


    Honestly, you are in a pretty deep hole both physically and mentally right now. If it were me in that position, I would NOT try to keep going up on substances to cover up symptoms. Your problems are too much substances for too long right now, not too little. If you are able to wean slowly off some of these things... like the benzos, MJ, and the subs... in whatever order you need in order to get that done... then I think you will likely feel a lot better day to day.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    235

    Default

    I would agree with dsh. My opinion and it is just that is that your dose is too high. Subs are not traditionally good pain relievers. So if you are chasing a high to deal with the pain, it's likely not going to be much help.

    That being said, as soon as I got off fentanyl and norco and the more I taper off of subs the better I feel. Not that every day is pain-free. I just try to distract myself when I feel achy. I would try to see a neurologist or go to the ER. It almost sounds like seizures...

  9. #9
    ea23004 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dsh12345 View Post
    Sorry it's been rough. Whoel body shaking on 8mg daily suboxone... dunno what to make of that. Every piece of actual hard science that I accept to be true should indicate that this can't be the subs if you have been able to stay at 8mg with minimal problems for awhile until now..... multiple reasons. It doesn't make sense that you go into WD on the same dose that's been working, or higher doses than ones that have been working for long times, and also 8mg is way above the ceiling effect with subs, which is like 4-6mg range. And that's just the initial dose. Your blood levels at 4mg/day are really like 12mg from the previous built up daily doses.... so while you are taking 8mg a day, there is really like 24mg a day of sub in your system from the previous days' doses.... that's the equivalent of 400mg of oxycodone...

    Have you considered the Robert plan? There's a sticky at the top of the suboxone thread. For longer users... perhaps 4 days each stop is too quick.. maybe spent 1-2 weeks there. Bottom line is...the only way to get off is to stop... whether that be a slower taper or CT (sounds like CT is a no). If your sub doctor doesn't test you, and doesn't watch you dose.... then why not do your own taper to off?

    Finally... could there be too much sub.. and you are really just feeling too wired, but the conditioning of your brain tells you to take more opioids becauase that's been the answer for years? Yes, too much sub and too little sub can both cause insomnia for example. We just don't notice the insomnia when we wre using full opiates because we wree too busy enjoying our high. I used to stay up all night until 7am high on opiates.... sleeping just because the sun was coming up, but not feeling sleepy at all... felt really energized and euphoric and high.... that was INSOMNIA I just didn't notice because I was high. So, when I was first on subs I had too much the first week and got insomnia and just couldn't tie in the fact that too much sub could also cause insomnia just like too little sub until I thought really hard about my experiences back using my DOC full opiates.

    You have to really be honest with yourself and these symptoms..... again, if you have been stable at doses for a long time above the ceiling effect, you shouldn't just be getting too much full body shakes like this. Perhaps go back down on your dose and try to taper lower if you felt better at lower doses? Less seems to be always more with subs.
    You don't know my previous history. 400mg of oxy wouldn't even hold me from withdrawals for an hour when I used to use...
    I know full well the effects and how suboxone works thats why I said doses ranging from 1mg-32mg do literally no difference. Just somewhat more comfort from 8 than a ripped strip...

    I've already said this as well, I dont know what happened to the thread I posted so I guess this was missing a lot of info. I get tested every week I have a new Dr. I'm not using, thats all people assume/say when they don't know the answer and its insanely aggrivating. No one can help because they don't understand/believe me. If subs aren't working then I guess I have another problem but my Dr isnt just suboxone only, they find nothing else wrong with me. The crooked Dr im referring to is from years ago and has already lost his license and was known to be a crook...

    I can't taper off/already have multiple times but the wholeproblem is that each day I get sicker while RAISING or STAYING at the same dose, so how would lowering it help? this is exactly what my current doctor said as well, that my tolerance is past the point of even doing a taper anymore that I just have to jump off or stay on for life, I know thats mostly BS and a taper CAN help but my current living situation makes it impossible plus to add the wierd reason that subs stopped wroking for me. You know they dont fully fill all receptors like methadone and >>>>>> right? before doing methadone just 2mg-4mg of sub would hold me just fine, after methadone i would go into precip w/d for the next year+ nmw....FInally was able to switch but subs seemed to only work very minimally and im sure its bc its only filling the partial receptors....I don't know what type of dr to see who would help/confirm this or where I can even go for help.

    I know how to taper off subs and have done it in the past with my own schedules, including methadone and benzos. all successfuly, just living situations brought me back to street use. its now been 2+ yrs clean off anything illegal and just physically sick only but getting worse and no one has an answer but just assumes im lying/wrong, i've never even heard of anyone at my stage w problems like this but then again they alll gave up and are on methadone or street using for the rest of thier lives...

    I don't really have a problem sleeping I just only have a problem with waking up too soon/early (only a few hrs a night) bc i'll be in full withdrawals no matter how soon I took subs, falling asleep totally resets them. I can take an 8mg strip and go to bed and wake up in 3 hours in ful withdrawal and have to take more or just suffer. I try to keep 6+ hrs in btwn doses and try to keep it low bc I know theres a ceiling effect and dont want an insanely higher tolerance than I alrdy have when it comes time to withdrawal. I know thats my only option but like I said where i live right now doesnt allow me to do that, I would end up with more problems harming me if i did so (methadone totally ruined my teeths enamal and need 1~yr of dental work, i cant get root canals while im shaking and in full withdrawal symtpoms i would end up making a "mess" all over and shake to the point they'd drill the wrong tooth. The dentist knew about suboxone and would either wait tilll I was feeling ok or would load me up on benzos and nitrous to try and calm my body down.

    But bottom line is every detox here in CT is 5-7days, on 6th/8th day ur just forced to leave and jump off at w.e dose some uneducated Dr. thinks is good for you and your right back where you started and need to find a new detox, they are literally scams and ONLY work for people going thru thier FIRST TIME withdrawal and usually from stuff like IV short acting use so 5 days is more than enough. I went out of state to a 90day program to get off of methadone (was told ill be weened off there) and arrived and they claimed to not even have methadone and put me in a cold turkey opiate AND benzo withdrawal as they also lied abt my prescription being okay and FLUSHED MY ENTIRE MONTHS WORTH and I was almost seizing after 2 weeks and just left (refused to give me my ID for a week+) and had to take a plane home while in bathroom whole time. Was one of the worst experiences ever...plus the fact all the Drs there denied that I was in withdrawal saying every opiate leaves your system in 5 days and had never even heard of methadone, one Dr told me he thouhght I meant methamphetamine and was treating me for that! Then finally 1 dr knew exactly what he was talking about, explained that i was just physically dependant and got my benzos back for me and then put me on a NO-OPIATE taper, which he also printed info on explaining how its much better than a switch to suboxone for me. But those drugs aren't readily available here at home, and that guy was literally fired 3 days after I left all because he went against the books and actually beleived a patient. I was sitting there soaking the other Drs chairs with sweat whiile being told it's all in my head.

    I'm 99% sure I'm past the point of any help now as no one thinks I'm being honest and just asssumes that if sub don't work that I'm using on the side, ive proved that wrong 1000x of times and even tho they dont fullly work if i dont take them im at least 10x worse. its like i get only 50% of the suboxone to work no matter how much I take. Ive talked to many many users, drs, and read tons online over the years and never seen someone with this problem so I feel like its something else thats just being exacerbated by the suboxone/withdrawal...but I have no idea how to find out or what type of dr to see for this as I've alrdy tried and they just claim they cant help any "drug treatment" patients, or they just say "stop using onotp of suboxone" or just tell me "your case is too advanced for me to help you sorry"

    It's all about the $ if only 1 person with knowledge and ability to prescribe would take me seriously and try to help me in a controlled setting (mine is chatoic and is making stuff worse) I could at least find out what's wrong with me, just a huge tolerance thats not being treated right or something else. I made a mistake posting as no on online could find this out for me, i was just really sick and desperate when I wrote it. I got a new symptom of nausea for the first time in all my history of opiates only alcohol has upset my stomach,at this rate I'm considering the hospital but every other time htey just say "oh you're on opiates? we don't treat that here, go to a detox" and that's it. I'm about done with this life and this state, I'd give anything to trade places with the people who are posting about completeing thiertaper but can't deal with PAWS. Paws only would be a godsend for me but nothing like that would happen, I'm just jealous. No matter how much willpower ive put in (80days of sitting in a house unable to even leave due to the withdrawal severty) i don't think I can do that again or last much longer than 80days i I did... i thought it was bad when I had a 32day withdrawal from IV use but now I'd give anything to go back to that stage....

    (before anyone assumes, yes I know what diff btwn acute withdrawal and PAWS is, and mine was ACUTE the entire time, when I go into paws I only get sweats and chills and otherwise are 100% fine except for mental state, now its literally ALL acute physical symptoms only, thanks to the benzos my mind hasn't snapped yet... but i cant even eat, always having trouble with the bathrom, and cant even see due to blurryness and overall body foggyness)

  10. #10
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ea23004 View Post
    You don't know my previous history. 400mg of oxy wouldn't even hold me from withdrawals for an hour when I used to use...
    I know full well the effects and how suboxone works thats why I said doses ranging from 1mg-32mg do literally no difference. Just somewhat more comfort from 8 than a ripped strip...

    I've already said this as well, I dont know what happened to the thread I posted so I guess this was missing a lot of info. I get tested every week I have a new Dr. I'm not using, thats all people assume/say when they don't know the answer and its insanely aggrivating. No one can help because they don't understand/believe me. If subs aren't working then I guess I have another problem but my Dr isnt just suboxone only, they find nothing else wrong with me. The crooked Dr im referring to is from years ago and has already lost his license and was known to be a crook...

    I can't taper off/already have multiple times but the wholeproblem is that each day I get sicker while RAISING or STAYING at the same dose, so how would lowering it help? this is exactly what my current doctor said as well, that my tolerance is past the point of even doing a taper anymore that I just have to jump off or stay on for life, I know thats mostly BS and a taper CAN help but my current living situation makes it impossible plus to add the wierd reason that subs stopped wroking for me. You know they dont fully fill all receptors like methadone and >>>>>> right? before doing methadone just 2mg-4mg of sub would hold me just fine, after methadone i would go into precip w/d for the next year+ nmw....FInally was able to switch but subs seemed to only work very minimally and im sure its bc its only filling the partial receptors....I don't know what type of dr to see who would help/confirm this or where I can even go for help.

    I know how to taper off subs and have done it in the past with my own schedules, including methadone and benzos. all successfuly, just living situations brought me back to street use. its now been 2+ yrs clean off anything illegal and just physically sick only but getting worse and no one has an answer but just assumes im lying/wrong, i've never even heard of anyone at my stage w problems like this but then again they alll gave up and are on methadone or street using for the rest of thier lives...

    I don't really have a problem sleeping I just only have a problem with waking up too soon/early (only a few hrs a night) bc i'll be in full withdrawals no matter how soon I took subs, falling asleep totally resets them. I can take an 8mg strip and go to bed and wake up in 3 hours in ful withdrawal and have to take more or just suffer. I try to keep 6+ hrs in btwn doses and try to keep it low bc I know theres a ceiling effect and dont want an insanely higher tolerance than I alrdy have when it comes time to withdrawal. I know thats my only option but like I said where i live right now doesnt allow me to do that, I would end up with more problems harming me if i did so (methadone totally ruined my teeths enamal and need 1~yr of dental work, i cant get root canals while im shaking and in full withdrawal symtpoms i would end up making a "mess" all over and shake to the point they'd drill the wrong tooth. The dentist knew about suboxone and would either wait tilll I was feeling ok or would load me up on benzos and nitrous to try and calm my body down.

    But bottom line is every detox here in CT is 5-7days, on 6th/8th day ur just forced to leave and jump off at w.e dose some uneducated Dr. thinks is good for you and your right back where you started and need to find a new detox, they are literally scams and ONLY work for people going thru thier FIRST TIME withdrawal and usually from stuff like IV short acting use so 5 days is more than enough. I went out of state to a 90day program to get off of methadone (was told ill be weened off there) and arrived and they claimed to not even have methadone and put me in a cold turkey opiate AND benzo withdrawal as they also lied abt my prescription being okay and FLUSHED MY ENTIRE MONTHS WORTH and I was almost seizing after 2 weeks and just left (refused to give me my ID for a week+) and had to take a plane home while in bathroom whole time. Was one of the worst experiences ever...plus the fact all the Drs there denied that I was in withdrawal saying every opiate leaves your system in 5 days and had never even heard of methadone, one Dr told me he thouhght I meant methamphetamine and was treating me for that! Then finally 1 dr knew exactly what he was talking about, explained that i was just physically dependant and got my benzos back for me and then put me on a NO-OPIATE taper, which he also printed info on explaining how its much better than a switch to suboxone for me. But those drugs aren't readily available here at home, and that guy was literally fired 3 days after I left all because he went against the books and actually beleived a patient. I was sitting there soaking the other Drs chairs with sweat whiile being told it's all in my head.

    I'm 99% sure I'm past the point of any help now as no one thinks I'm being honest and just asssumes that if sub don't work that I'm using on the side, ive proved that wrong 1000x of times and even tho they dont fullly work if i dont take them im at least 10x worse. its like i get only 50% of the suboxone to work no matter how much I take. Ive talked to many many users, drs, and read tons online over the years and never seen someone with this problem so I feel like its something else thats just being exacerbated by the suboxone/withdrawal...but I have no idea how to find out or what type of dr to see for this as I've alrdy tried and they just claim they cant help any "drug treatment" patients, or they just say "stop using onotp of suboxone" or just tell me "your case is too advanced for me to help you sorry"

    It's all about the $ if only 1 person with knowledge and ability to prescribe would take me seriously and try to help me in a controlled setting (mine is chatoic and is making stuff worse) I could at least find out what's wrong with me, just a huge tolerance thats not being treated right or something else. I made a mistake posting as no on online could find this out for me, i was just really sick and desperate when I wrote it. I got a new symptom of nausea for the first time in all my history of opiates only alcohol has upset my stomach,at this rate I'm considering the hospital but every other time htey just say "oh you're on opiates? we don't treat that here, go to a detox" and that's it. I'm about done with this life and this state, I'd give anything to trade places with the people who are posting about completeing thiertaper but can't deal with PAWS. Paws only would be a godsend for me but nothing like that would happen, I'm just jealous. No matter how much willpower ive put in (80days of sitting in a house unable to even leave due to the withdrawal severty) i don't think I can do that again or last much longer than 80days i I did... i thought it was bad when I had a 32day withdrawal from IV use but now I'd give anything to go back to that stage....

    (before anyone assumes, yes I know what diff btwn acute withdrawal and PAWS is, and mine was ACUTE the entire time, when I go into paws I only get sweats and chills and otherwise are 100% fine except for mental state, now its literally ALL acute physical symptoms only, thanks to the benzos my mind hasn't snapped yet... but i cant even eat, always having trouble with the bathrom, and cant even see due to blurryness and overall body foggyness)


    Look, I know it's not what you wanna hear, and I can only say so much from behind a computer having never met you.... but if you claim to take a 8mg strip and it can't hold you for more than 3 hours before acute WD's kick in... I just don't believe that's the subs. They last a long time. Your blood levels of subs 3 hours after dosing are not much more different than what they were right after dosing, and all day the day before. Subs half a very long half life.

    Again, I go back to this: The standard 5panel urine test that you can buy tests for 5 things: opiates, THC, coke, amphetamine, benzos. You would ring positive on 60% of that right now. It doesn't matter whether you get opiates from a doctor or the street, you would test positive for a lot of things... you have lots of substances in your system. I'm sure hearing your story.. the majority of your life (not judging here, just stating it) you have been conditioned to use a substance in response to thigns you feel in your body. There are uppers, downers, anxiolytics in there all to help cover up whatever your body is feeling. Over time your body gets blunted to the effects of substances, needing more to feel normal. I wouldn't be surprised that anyone using that cocktail of drugs would feel like >>>> in the AM because when they wake up they are basically coming off a bender they had the previous day, and this repeats itself every single day.

    This is a hard cycle to break, your mind can go crazy and reinforce itself. What is your end game here? To finally find a doctor that will give you 24mg/day of suboxone? And then what? You won't feel better on that either, and no one is gonna even consider giving you more than that.


    Everybody in your situation all say the same thing... they need more opiates, their body is not getting enough opiates... but these ppl.. notice they are never happy. Nobody on chronic opiates ever seems happy... they always seem to be chasing an elusive state of 'feeling fine' with their only answer being to increase the opiates and don't realize they are caught in the cycle of chasing opiates, chasing other substances etc.


    Again, not what you wanna hear, but if I was in your position I would think really hard about getting off of everything to give my brain the best chance possible to heal. Getting there is obviously hard. The first thing I would do is try to taper off the suboxone, give it a chance. Next would be the weed, finally the benzos as those take the longest. You are right, 5-7 days of inpatient detox won't do it for you. It will be a much longer process. Ask yourself given how you are feeling now, what do you have to lose?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Truer words can't be spoken dsh. I was playing good cop of this one but you are right. Ea. It honestly depends on how bad you really want this. Because if you do, you do need to taper off the subs bc I agree that I think it is likely you are taking too many drugs in general with the subs bring the most potent. As dsh says, what else do you have to lose. No one here is going to sugar coat it. We encourage each other but to get clean and stay clean we also call each other on our stuff. When you say your living situation doesn't allow you to taper, what do you mean by that? I would also give NA another go.to be honest. Not every meeting is for everyone. I had to go to a bunch of them before I found the ones I liked. I can't think of any other place that is going to welcome you with open arms and try to help you get the help you need- IF you really want the help.

  12. #12
    dsh12345 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Justfortodaytx View Post
    Truer words can't be spoken dsh. I was playing good cop of this one but you are right. Ea. It honestly depends on how bad you really want this. Because if you do, you do need to taper off the subs bc I agree that I think it is likely you are taking too many drugs in general with the subs bring the most potent. As dsh says, what else do you have to lose. No one here is going to sugar coat it. We encourage each other but to get clean and stay clean we also call each other on our stuff. When you say your living situation doesn't allow you to taper, what do you mean by that? I would also give NA another go.to be honest. Not every meeting is for everyone. I had to go to a bunch of them before I found the ones I liked. I can't think of any other place that is going to welcome you with open arms and try to help you get the help you need- IF you really want the help.

    These kind of stories are all the same... every doctor is clueless, nothing works for me, I get withdrawals 3 hours after taking a drug that lasts 30 hours, when I come off methadone I had full WD's for 2 years, my living situation forces me to use it's not my problem, I'm in too deep to attempt any kind of taper, etc etc.

    Let me ask you this.... has any of this worked for you? Taking H, methadone, THC, benzos, suboxone, etc etc..... where has that led you other than to this current point? Using drugs to cover up our body's discomforts is an unsustainable path that leads us to points like this.

    Don't know how old you are, and how long the total use has been, but look at your life before you were using anything, and look at it now, and you are still at a point where you think the only answer is to find doctors that will increase your substance doses. You are in an unsustainable cycle of drug use, and you need to snap the cycle of thinking everything is caused by not enough drugs in your system.

    You need to look carefully inward and ask yourself how badly do you want to feel normal again, and whether you truly want to believe that the inevitable answer to your question is to get off the drugs, #1 being the opiates and a close #2 or 1b being the benzos.

    This is coming from one addict to another. Back when I was using, the only time I would feel "normal" was when I was high. Everything revolved around using. Before shower and didn't wanna step out into a cold bedroom I would use. Before playing golf knowing I would walk alot... use. Before trips.. use. It's very tough to break that cycle. There is no such thing as anyone whose too far gone that subs don't work. They fill opiate receptors just like any other drug. For example, and not suggesting this, if you were to get the subs out of your system completely and instantly right now and take a gigantic hit of your old opiate DOC whether that be oxy or H.... I'm sure you would be feeling nice and good right now and you know it. Your body is dependent on opiates, but that doesn't mean it can't heal or is forever numb to any opiates and you are destined to feel like >>>> forever. If you believe you can't take feel "normal" without taking 3 substances every day... then you will continue to feel like >>>> until you realize the problem is escalating substance doses is not the answer to your problems. THat's the last I'll comment on this. I hope you do end up finding a solution to your problems that involves weaning off all this junk as your brain can't feel normal when it's constantly being exposed to substances. I have been there, am there, have gone through what you have gone through before I had to make hard painful decisions to improve that situation.

Similar Threads

  1. Using Loperamide in high doses as aid to Withdrawals ??
    By Stell76 in forum Prescription Drug Addiction
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-09-2016, 07:33 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-25-2015, 02:28 PM
  3. 190 mg methadone mixed with high doses of xanax
    By blondy0614 in forum Drug Information
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-18-2009, 10:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22