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xpost about my suboxone taper I hope to start next week
  1. #1
    icewater is offline New Member
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    Default xpost about my suboxone taper I hope to start next week

    I created a thread in the Need To Talk section and realized it should probably go here. If anyone could offer some insight or suggestions, I'm open to all opinions. Here's the link to the original thread.



    https://www.drugs.com/forum/need-tal...elp-64399.html


    Thanks

  2. #2
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewater View Post
    I created a thread in the Need To Talk section and realized it should probably go here. If anyone could offer some insight or suggestions, I'm open to all opinions. Here's the link to the original thread.



    https://www.drugs.com/forum/need-tal...elp-64399.html


    Thanks
    Hi, congrats on wanting to start a taper and get clean. I haven't had a chance to read your other thread. Have you read Robert's taper plan? It's the plan we all use to taper off subs the right way with as little discomfort as possible. It explains everything - how to induct properly and all other concerns about the taper. Here's the link just in case you haven't read it:

    https://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

    Please read it thoroughly. It is very informative. Post back to let me know how you're doing...

  3. #3
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    You are taking both tramadol and subs correct? How much of each per day? That would help, but my idea is for you to jump both get into w/d and re-induct SUBS ONLY. NO tramadol. You will need to google the COWS worksheet (clinical opiate withdrawal scale) and you need to score at least a 26 before you re-induct: that will be moderate to severe w/d.
    1. How much sub do you have in your possession?
    2. How much sub are you taking daily?

    Sorry if this is a jumble but your tramadol and sub use together is what is causing you the problem.

    Here to help if I can,

    Peace,

    Iloerose
    Iwantoff2013 likes this.

  4. #4
    icewater is offline New Member
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    Hi, no, I was on subs for a year and a half, tapered to .10 mg and still couldn't jump off. Decided to switch back to the tramadol to give the subs time to get out of my system. I'm on day 3 off subs and on tramadol.

    I hope to jump or taper off the tramadol in the next 1 to 4ish days.
    If I can't, I will reinduct back onto .10 mg subs per day and taper over 5 days then jump. I have roughly 4 mg subs left.

  5. #5
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    You are day 3 of no subs? Why the tramadol? If you tapered properly, you should not need that. I'm extremely worried that you're back on your drug of choice. Do not jump off the tramadol if you've been on it awhile, taper it. When you say .10mg. are you really talking about 1mg.? Tell me how you came up with .10mg.

    Rose

  6. #6
    icewater is offline New Member
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    No, I really mean 1/10 of a milligram. One sub strip lasts me over 45 days. I divided 8 by 45 & got .16, but after that I tapered to about .10 mg and was at that dose for a few weeks. Still could not jump off without withdrawals. Yes, you'd absolutely think I'd be able to, but no.

    So since I read so many people say
    1 that the longer you are on subs, the harder to get off, and
    2 several people induced into subs from whatever they were in and tapered over only 4-5 days and didn't have a lot of trouble with it;
    I figured I'd give that a try.

    I never ever got high off tramadol or used more than the prescribed dose for my chronic pain. I don't have cravings. So there shouldn't be any risk of "relapse". I've gone cold turkey before and I've been through withdrawals, but I only made it to about day 3 before I couldn't take the wd anymore.
    I'm back on tramadol for the following reasons:
    1. To give the subs time to leave my system.
    2. I don't want to go through full withdrawals.
    3. I plan to either quit the tramadol ct if possible after 4-7 days. If I'm still experiencing withdrawals, I will reinduct onto subs at the .10 mg dose and taper over 4 days to nothing. I only have 4 mg left and can't get more at this time. I have no insurance and it costs way too much.

    I mentioned all of this in my first and second threads but I guess it is a little confusing with all the switching, I'm not so good at explaining things and it is a little complicated.

  7. #7
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewater View Post
    No, I really mean 1/10 of a milligram. One sub strip lasts me over 45 days. I divided 8 by 45 & got .16, but after that I tapered to about .10 mg and was at that dose for a few weeks. Still could not jump off without withdrawals. Yes, you'd absolutely think I'd be able to, but no.

    So since I read so many people say
    1 that the longer you are on subs, the harder to get off, and
    2 several people induced into subs from whatever they were in and tapered over only 4-5 days and didn't have a lot of trouble with it;
    I figured I'd give that a try.

    I never ever got high off tramadol or used more than the prescribed dose for my chronic pain. I don't have cravings. So there shouldn't be any risk of "relapse". I've gone cold turkey before and I've been through withdrawals, but I only made it to about day 3 before I couldn't take the wd anymore.
    I'm back on tramadol for the following reasons:
    1. To give the subs time to leave my system.
    2. I don't want to go through full withdrawals.
    3. I plan to either quit the tramadol ct if possible after 4-7 days. If I'm still experiencing withdrawals, I will reinduct onto subs at the .10 mg dose and taper over 4 days to nothing. I only have 4 mg left and can't get more at this time. I have no insurance and it costs way too much.

    I mentioned all of this in my first and second threads but I guess it is a little confusing with all the switching, I'm not so good at explaining things and it is a little complicated.
    Hi. What exactly were your symptoms after jumping off the .10 mg sub? I'm sure you know this, but there will be SOME symptoms after stopping. No way around it, unfortunately. If you've been off subs for over 3 days I would think you shouldn't go back on it as it may just prolong the inevitable. I could be wrong. Hopefully Rose will weigh in on this.

    Have you tried using meds like clonidine or the Thomas Recipe for wd symptoms? I don't have insurance until Nov 1st but clonidine is fairly inexpensive.

  8. #8
    icewater is offline New Member
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    Sweating, sneezing, yawning, horrible leg cramps, horrible rls, inability to sleep, lethargy, diarrhea, nausea, watery eyes, suicidal thoughts, worsened depression, feeling like I can't breathe, horrible vivid nightmares when I do manage so fall asleep days later, no appetite, headache, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things but, withdrawals.

    I think the fact that I was on subs for so long may be the issue. I was only taking 3-4 tramadol per day when I was inducted onto 16 mg subs. I quickly realized that was WAY TOO much, and went down to roughly 1 mg per day (which was still way too much) and stayed there for a few months. Tapered again to roughly .5 mg per day and stayed there for several months. I was on .16mg for a month or two, feeling awful the whole time. Then went to .1 mg for a few weeks, feeling worse, and decided to start over.

    So are you guys saying it might be easier to just taper of the tramadol and stay away from subs? You may be right. I hope I can. Either way, tramadol is only $15 without insurance, and is certainly weaker than subs, probably easier to quit, too.

    I think another major contributor to my trouble is that I already feel like >>>> ON meds. I have major depression, anxiety, fatigue, ptsd, chronic pain and a husband who makes tiger woods look like a saint.
    So jumping off anything only exacerbates it all. However, I still shouldn't have many of the other symptoms. Not that bad, anyway.

    So, I'm posting from my phone which is very difficult, I can't figure out how to switch back to the mobile version either. I'm going to paste the other thread in the next post so that hopefully will answer most of the questions anyone may have.

    I also needed some answers as to how to help with the withdrawals when I do jump off.
    Last edited by Anonymous; 10-12-2013 at 08:27 PM.

  9. #9
    icewater is offline New Member
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    Default this is the op from my previous thread that I should have just reposted here

    I decided it would be easier to stop subs after reinducing at a low dose after having it out of my system (hopefully) for a bit.Either I'll be able to quit or taper from the tramadol before I become dependent again, (after about 5-9 days) or I'll reinduct if that doesn't work. I've no idea if either plan will work.I've been slowly tapering off the subs for months and feeling awful. I'm only taking 3-4 tramadol per day and I feel better than I have in months, probably because I was only taking roughly .16 mg subs per day.Anyway, if this doesn't work, I'll be jumping off subs after about 5 days back on it, and even off a very low dose I don't take wd well at all. I'm scared that I won't be able to make it through the 5 or more days. I may not even be able to make it through a full day in wd.I'm trying to arm myself with every possible tool I can utilize to make it easier.I'm ordering L-tyrosine, taurine, potassium, picking up some immodium AD, some protein shakes, bananas, (I already eat a lot of potatoes but the RLS KILLS me after only a couple hours in wd, I have leg pain WHILE on pain meds, so without is bad and wd is unbearable).I have some zanaflex (muscle relaxers) but no clonidine (sp?). I have melatonin.A couple questions: will muscle relaxers help much?Melatonin doesn't seem to affect me and I can't take not being able to sleep. Can I take a sleeping aid with the zanaflex?What else can I do or do I need?I don't have cravings thank god because I've never abused drugs, so if I'm just dying, I may take a crumb of tramadol or subs rarely to alleviate some of the wd.Is one of these more likely than the other to prolong the wd? I want to try to ease into being totally off, but I also want this over with. This has been dragging on for years mow. I thought I was going to be done over a year and a half ago.My depression is out of control, I think about suicide all the time, I'm miserable and I barely function anymore. I have no life, one friend, and no job. I need to get off this >>>> and find an antidepressant that will work and get my life back.I can't take this anymore and I fear I'm on the edge. I have a really old cat and an older dog among several other pets and kids, and seriously in this state I fear I would never recover from losing one of my pets right now. It's never going to be easy or pleasant of course, but I am too fragile and too much of a mess to handle anything difficult at this point.Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

  10. #10
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewater View Post
    I decided it would be easier to stop subs after reinducing at a low dose after having it out of my system (hopefully) for a bit.Either I'll be able to quit or taper from the tramadol before I become dependent again, (after about 5-9 days) or I'll reinduct if that doesn't work. I've no idea if either plan will work.I've been slowly tapering off the subs for months and feeling awful. I'm only taking 3-4 tramadol per day and I feel better than I have in months, probably because I was only taking roughly .16 mg subs per day.Anyway, if this doesn't work, I'll be jumping off subs after about 5 days back on it, and even off a very low dose I don't take wd well at all. I'm scared that I won't be able to make it through the 5 or more days. I may not even be able to make it through a full day in wd.I'm trying to arm myself with every possible tool I can utilize to make it easier.I'm ordering L-tyrosine, taurine, potassium, picking up some immodium AD, some protein shakes, bananas, (I already eat a lot of potatoes but the RLS KILLS me after only a couple hours in wd, I have leg pain WHILE on pain meds, so without is bad and wd is unbearable).I have some zanaflex (muscle relaxers) but no clonidine (sp?). I have melatonin.A couple questions: will muscle relaxers help much?Melatonin doesn't seem to affect me and I can't take not being able to sleep. Can I take a sleeping aid with the zanaflex?What else can I do or do I need?I don't have cravings thank god because I've never abused drugs, so if I'm just dying, I may take a crumb of tramadol or subs rarely to alleviate some of the wd.Is one of these more likely than the other to prolong the wd? I want to try to ease into being totally off, but I also want this over with. This has been dragging on for years mow. I thought I was going to be done over a year and a half ago.My depression is out of control, I think about suicide all the time, I'm miserable and I barely function anymore. I have no life, one friend, and no job. I need to get off this >>>> and find an antidepressant that will work and get my life back.I can't take this anymore and I fear I'm on the edge. I have a really old cat and an older dog among several other pets and kids, and seriously in this state I fear I would never recover from losing one of my pets right now. It's never going to be easy or pleasant of course, but I am too fragile and too much of a mess to handle anything difficult at this point.Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
    I'm really sorry you're in such a rough place. I'm concerned about your suicidal thoughts. Have you used any of the suicide hotlines or are you seeking help for that? I'm sorry, I don't have any experience with that but I'm sure there are many people on this forum who can relate. You mentioned an anti-depressant. Have you ever taken one? Did any work for you? I was put on Zoloft after my son was born for postpartum depression and still take a low dose every day. Once I complete my sub taper my primary care doc is going to help me slowly taper the Zoloft. It worked really well within 10 days for the sudden onset of major anxiety & depression.

    As far as your withdrawals, I'm amazed they are so severe from jumping off such a low dose of sub. The only thing I can think of is that your reductions were too big. Is that the case? The taper plan here calls for a reduction of only 25% each time.. and only when stable enough to reduce. If I'm correct, you said you went from 1 mg to .5 mg to .16mg, right? Those drops are too big. 1 mg to .5 mg is a 50% drop. .5 mg to .16 mg is probably about an 80% drop I think. Again, too much too soon.

    The general protocol is: from 1 mg to .75 to .5 to .375 to .25, (some might go even lower) then start skipping days, then jump. People who do this properly have minimal symptoms during the taper and after the jump.

    From what you listed, you have a lot of the supplements and meds that work well for WD. If melatonin doesn't work, try valerian. It works great for me. If the herbal stuff doesn't help you sleep, you may want to ask your doc to prescribe something but only for like a week or two since you don't want to end up with another dependency. Definitely get the clonidine. Muscle relaxers may help to make you drowsy. Have you ever tried a Gaba supplement for anxiety? Are you currently taking a benzo? I've heard from many people that using Loperamide (Immodium) in large amounts really helps ease wd's. I don't want to give any bad advice so if anyone thinks this is not a good idea please say so. From what I've heard/read, it works wonders if taken during the worst of wd's, but you have to take more than the recommended dose so that's where it gets tricky. And you only want to do this for the first 5-6 days, no longer.

    I know it sometimes seems impossible to have a positive attitude about getting through this, but it really helps if you don't dwell on the worst or "what's to come". Oh, get as much exercise as possible. Even if you just rapidly walk for 20 min. It works wonders for mood and gets those endorphins working again. I wish I could be of more help. Let me know how you're doing. Hang in there and don't give up! Your children need you
    Last edited by Anonymous; 10-12-2013 at 10:20 PM.

  11. #11
    icewater is offline New Member
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    As long as my kids and pets need me I don't think I would kill myself, but I think about it all the time. I'm really scared to die, but I'm so miserable, I hate being awake. I just can't cope with anything.

    My taper was a bit more gradual than I explained, but I usually did drop by 50% or more when I did drop.

    I have tried so many antidepressants. At least 10 different ones. However over the last 5or 6 years, I haven't been able to stay on any long because the tramadol or subs would seem to interact.

    I was on wellbutrin and Prozac most recently for almost a month but then I read that taking them together mitt only blocks the wellbutrin from metabolizing, but can also be dangerous to mix with subs or tramadol. So I stopped them last week. They hadn't started working yet anyway.

    I plan to continue with wellbutrin after I'm off tramadol.

    I don't know if I can get clonodine. I so have one of those doctors that will prescribe pretty much anything I ask for, but he also wrote my scripts for tramadol, wellbutrin, and Prozac. I don't want him to think I'm addicted to the tramadol and then if I happen to need it later I may not be able to get it. Or he may think I'm still on the antidepressants and be afraid of giving me yet another drug, idk.
    My husband has the same Dr., maybe he can ask fir clonodine for something?
    I heard it's for high blood pressure though, which worries me because I already have moderately low blood pressure.


    Ive

  12. #12
    icewater is offline New Member
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    My stupid phone wouldn't let me continue that post.

    I've not heard of gaba, never tried benzos but they sound scary so I'd like to avoid it.

    Is it safe to mix clonodine with muscle relaxers? Or is one better than the other for wd?

  13. #13
    icewater is offline New Member
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    After what I've read about clonodine, I'm not messing with that.
    I'm reading so much conflicting evidence about l-tyrosine and whether it works at all. 1/3 of people seem to say it works, 1/3 say l-dopa is better and 1/3 say some other thing is superior. I guess I'll try the tyrosine and find out myself, since it supposedly turns into l-dopa anyway.

    I've tried many herbs and supplements that many people swear by and none have had even the slightest effect on me even after months at recommended doses and sometimes higher. I'll give it a shot though.

  14. #14
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    You are all over the place with this and you need to get a handle on it: either stay on the tramadol and taper off after the sub is out of your system or go c/t. There really isn't an option here. I would not go back on sub for such a short time and expect it to work if you only have 4mg. What you need to do is to read the Thomas Recipe. L-tyrosine with b-6 is recommended for energy. L-t gives some people a shakey feeling and so don't take it. I took B-12, B-6, pottasium and some L-tyrosine for awhile. Valerian root helps anxiety. You might want to try some tonic water or Hyland's restful leg for RLS. The zanaflex you should look up. Be careful with this med as it seems to interact with many different meds, but you might use it before you go to bed to ease your restless leg. As for your depression, you may need to fess up with your doctor: especially if you are having suicidal thoughts while taking a anti-depressant. Surely all the stress of the w/d isn't helping you any. I would stay the course you are on without the sub and taper the tramadol.

    Another thing: many people make it to day three and crash because that's generally the worst days: 3-5, however sub works differently. As far as not being able to jump the sub, could be because you were on a while and then all over the place with your taper. I don't know.

    You do not need the clonidine or the benzo ie valium, xanax. Just stay on the supplements. One thing I'm going to say is that you are going to have to work through this and you should find a counselor to help you.

    Good Luck, Keep Posting and we'll help all we can.

    Peace,

    Iloerose
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  15. #15
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Make sure you read artist658's post to you on the need to talk thread you posted, most of what you need to know is in her post.

  16. #16
    Sharks fan is offline Advanced Member
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    I hope this doesn't come across as harsh, because I'm not trying to be mean. But if you spent as much energy into getting clean as you do avoiding withdrawal symptoms you'd be done by now. There is nothing, no herbs, no blood pressure meds...nothing, that will take away withdrawal symptoms. You can minimize them, but you can't avoid them. A huge part of this process is mental, you have to want it more than anything because you're right, it's tough. Think of it like the flu.

    Dependent or addicted, doesn't matter, you're switching back and forth to avoid withdrawals which makes me think you're more addicted than you know.

    Please know I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to make you see that you have a much bigger problem than you think. Taking subs for a week isn't going to work, if that plan worked don't you think everyone would do it??

    Good luck, I hope you find peace and you are able to get clean.

  17. #17
    Iwantoff2013 is offline Platinum Member
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    Rose and Sharks gave you some excellent advice. Just wanted to clarify: I definitely wasn't suggesting you start a benzo, was just asking if you were taking one. Yes, benzos are awful and dangerous. You can do this if you put a plan in place and stick to it. WD's don't last forever. I wish you all the best.
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  18. #18
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Sharks is spot on. The thing you need to do is to be careful with the tramadol and should absolutely taper and not jump. If you haven't read ARTIST's post to you, her advice is make sure you have an anti-seizure med as well. Tramadol can cause seizures. I wanted you to see this.

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    ARTIST658 is offline Advanced Member
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    I think Sharks fan has made some valid points, and you need to consider what's being said. Most of us on this forum are addicts - and we know the signs and symptoms all-too-well. Your preoccupation with looking for the answers to your problems in a substance (be it one of the major opiates or simply herbal remedies or anything in between) is a hallmark of addiction.

    Until you are free of the tramadol and suboxone, you can not overcome the depression. Your brain chemistry is altered, and can not process its mood-stabilizing neural transmitters when there are narcotics in place. So any anti-depressant you've taken in the past - while taking other similar narcotics - was "hit or miss" at best. These ADs have a chance at helping you in the future, but only after you've come clean of all narcotics.

    Also, you should NOT be taking muscle relaxers with either tramadol or suboxone. (In fact, I do not think muscles relaxers are a good idea for anyone trying to overcome addiction or dependency.) There are very dangerous interactions between zanaflex and suboxone or zanaflex and tramadol. As I mentioned on your other thread, suboxone and tramadol should not be used together, either. These are not simply unpleasant side effects; these pose huge - potentially lethal - risks.

    By the way, dropping at .1 mg of suboxone could not possibly result in the litany of symptoms you listed. It appears to me that the greatest struggle you're having with this process is the anxiety within your own head. This isn't rocket science and it isn't an arduous trip to the moon. You can do this ESPECIALLY if this is only dependency, not addiction. You can deal with some temporary, unpleasant symptoms which would be minimal at .1mg of subs. Then, if you are truly dependent only, the battle will be over and done.

    God bless,
    Ruth


    You will know the truth - and only the truth can set you free.

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